Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:04 AM - Re: Riblett wing volume (helspersew@aol.com)
2. 04:59 AM - Re: Riblett wing volume (curtdm(at)gmail.com)
3. 07:02 AM - Re: Riblett wing volume (Craig Aho)
4. 07:19 AM - pulling nails... (tools)
5. 10:20 AM - ribs (j_dunavin)
6. 10:40 AM - Re: ribs (Isablcorky@aol.com)
7. 10:48 AM - Re: ribs (Jack)
8. 11:10 AM - Re: ribs (j_dunavin)
9. 11:11 AM - Re: ribs (echobravo4)
10. 12:01 PM - Re: Riblett wing volume (jarheadpilot82)
11. 12:07 PM - Re: pulling nails... (Ray Krause)
12. 12:53 PM - Re: ribs (curtdm(at)gmail.com)
13. 02:23 PM - Re: ribs (Bill Church)
14. 03:28 PM - Re: ribs (Pilot78)
15. 03:34 PM - Brodhead dates (Douwe Blumberg)
16. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Riblett wing volume (Clif Dawson)
17. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: ribs (Clif Dawson)
18. 11:38 PM - Re: pulling nails... (tools)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett wing volume |
Wow Craig...you have unleashed the hornet's nest once again. The answer is
yes, I believe, that most builders would not change to a non-Pietenpol airf
oil. The recent flight test info from P.F. and Don from Barnwell S.C. would
indicate no reason to do so, unless of course you want to increase your ra
nge to a point of wearing calluses on your behind and stretching your bladd
er to the ultimate limit between fuel stops. This opinion does not extend t
o the boys that have elected to install large engines (some for good reason
s). But for an airplane flying in the flatlands, not worried about lifting
heavy loads or operating from short runways, the normal fuel tank is as muc
h fuel as you need. My Ford burns maybe 4 gal per hour, so with 11 gallons
I can sit there for 2 hours with a fine reserve left. Two hours in a Piet i
s a long time, even with a comfy seat.
(Ducking for cover)
Dan Helsper
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Aho <soar561@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sun, May 5, 2013 2:32 pm
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume
So is the concensus that most Piet builders would not change to the 4412 or
Riblett?
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume
> From: airlion2@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:06:12 -0400
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
>
> I have a 36in center section with the fuel tank inside and an outlet at
the front and at the back.It holds 20.5 gallons and with my corvair power I
figure 3.5 hrs. cheers, Gardiner
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On May 5, 2013, at 1:32 PM, "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
m>
> >
> > By the way, just looking at Terry's wing ribs, I am reminded about the
possibilities of putting fuel tanks in the wings now. With the relatively
flat Pietenpol wing (less than 5" tall), it's tough to get much volume in a
wing bay. Curious to know how much the typical centersection fuel tank ho
lds when constructed to Air Camper plans. I've heard that it is around 10
gallons, maybe a little less.
> >
> > The Riblett 613.5 should be about 8" tall (13.5% of 60" =8.1"). With
rib spacing of 11" and spars about 27" apart, a Riblett wing bay should ha
ve a volume of around 8 gallons. Putting a wing tank on each side would pr
ovide 16 gallons and essentially all of it would be usable, unlike the last
2 or 2.5 gallons of fuel in 41CC, which are just too low in the tank to fl
ow reliably, especially in anything other than straight and level flight.
With the fuel in the wings, gravity flow is much better, and it moves the f
uel away from the cockpit. That can be a big plus, as William Wynne found
out the hard way when his plane crashed and fuel in the cockpit burned him
badly and destroyed the airplane. Another plus is that the CG will not shi
ft as fuel is used up in wing tanks. And you can keep the centersection fo
r storing things. And you can get to the rear of the firewall easier. And
... and...
> >
> > --------
> > Oscar Zuniga
> > Medford, OR
> > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> > A75 power
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399995#399995
> >
> >
> >
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett wing volume |
Re: pulling staples
I posted a picture a while back when I finished my ribs. I used staples and kept
them all to weigh after I pulled them. The total weight savings was about 6.5
oz. Next time I'd use nails and forgo the cup of coffee before flight.
--------
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400036#400036
Message 3
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| Subject: | Riblett wing volume |
Hello Dan=2C Sorry I am an long time RC Sailplane flyer and in that arena t
here is always a discussion on low renolds numbers and airfoils for better
performance and wind tunnel data from Selig=2C Donavan=2C Eppler and the la
test Dr. Drela. So I think it is a bit of an adiction for me. Also I dont r
emember there being much of a discussion back in 1993 when I started buildi
ng my first Air Camper. Anyway I was just curious. Thanks for the reply. C
raig
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume
From: helspersew@aol.com
=0A
Wow Craig...you have unleashed the hornet's nest once again. The answer is
yes=2C I believe=2C that most builders would not change to a non-Pietenpol
airfoil. The recent flight test info from P.F. and Don from Barnwell S.C. w
ould indicate no reason to do so=2C unless of course you want to increase y
our range to a point of wearing calluses on your behind and stretching your
bladder to the ultimate limit between fuel stops. This opinion does not ex
tend to the boys that have elected to install large engines (some for good
reasons). But for an airplane flying in the flatlands=2C not worried about
lifting heavy loads or operating from short runways=2C the normal fuel tank
is as much fuel as you need. My Ford burns maybe 4 gal per hour=2C so with
11 gallons I can sit there for 2 hours with a fine reserve left. Two hours
in a Piet is a long time=2C even with a comfy seat.=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
(Ducking for cover)=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
Dan Helsper=0A
=0A
Puryear=2C TN=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
-----Original Message-----
=0A
From: Craig Aho <soar561@hotmail.com>
=0A
=0A
Sent: Sun=2C May 5=2C 2013 2:32 pm
=0A
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume
=0A
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So is the concensus that most Piet builders would not change to the 4412 or
Riblett?
=0A
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=0A
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume
=0A
> From: airlion2@gmail.com
=0A
> Date: Sun=2C 5 May 2013 15:06:12 -0400
=0A
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
=0A
>
=0A
=0A
>
=0A
> I have a 36in center section with the fuel tank inside and an outlet at
the front and at the back.It holds 20.5 gallons and with my corvair power I
figure 3.5 hrs. cheers=2C Gardiner
=0A
>
=0A
> Sent from my iPad
=0A
>
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> On May 5=2C 2013=2C at 1:32 PM=2C "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com> wro
te:
=0A
>
=0A
m>
=0A
> >
=0A
> > By the way=2C just looking at Terry's wing ribs=2C I am reminded about
the possibilities of putting fuel tanks in the wings now. With the relativ
ely flat Pietenpol wing (less than 5" tall)=2C it's tough to get much volum
e in a wing bay. Curious to know how much the typical centersection fuel t
ank holds when constructed to Air Camper plans. I've heard that it is arou
nd 10 gallons=2C maybe a little less.
=0A
> >
=0A
> > The Riblett 613.5 should be about 8" tall (13.5% of 60" =8.1"). With
rib spacing of 11" and spars about 27" apart=2C a Riblett wing bay should
have a volume of around 8 gallons. Putting a wing tank on each side would
provide 16 gallons and essentially all of it would be usable=2C unlike the
last 2 or 2.5 gallons of fuel in 41CC=2C which are just too low in the tank
to flow reliably=2C especially in anything other than straight and level f
light. With the fuel in the wings=2C gravity flow is much better=2C and it
moves the fuel away from the cockpit. That can be a big plus=2C as Willia
m Wynne found out the hard way when his plane crashed and fuel in the cockp
it burned him badly and destroyed the airplane. Another plus is that the C
G will not shift as fuel is used up in wing tanks. And you can keep the ce
ntersection for storing things. And you can get to the rear of the firewal
l easier. And... and...
=0A
> >
=0A
> > --------
=0A
> > Oscar Zuniga
=0A
> > Medford=2C OR
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> > Air Camper NX41CC "=3BScout"=3B
=0A
> > A75 power
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> > Read this topic online here:
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> >
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> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399995#399995
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> >
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> >
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> >
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>
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" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A
tp://forums.matronics.com=0A
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A
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Message 4
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| Subject: | pulling nails... |
I never entered one of these discussions before, because I've not built an entire
plane, or for that matter, ever put nails in, or left them out.
However, I learned a lot while repairing N2RN after the undercarriage event.
I had to "dismantle" several joints in the fuselage, to allow installation of new
longeron sections. That is, I had to remove the interior gussets, and carve
out the lower longeron.
Dick did not build this area either, by the way. The joints LOOKED PERFECT. Good
wood, obvious use of resorcinol, seemed nicely fit... then I pulled off a
gusset plate (with it's hundred nails...). The interior of the joint was a mess
(wish I took pics).
The glue didn't make contact on that interior gusset but over maybe ten percent
of the area. The pieces were all different thicknesses although the plate made
contact at the edges so looked alright with the appropriate amount of "squeeze
out" there. 90 percent of the strength (derived from that gusset) came from
the nails that had been left in place. However, the joint showed NO ill effects
from the crash. Everything was tight, strong and nothing had shifted.
The gusset on the other side (the fuse side) was good. It's clear that side was
glued up first (or seems most likely so).
I was very surprised. There's a (not so difficult) method to gluing thing up.
It's not a lot unlike laying floor tiles. I think for best results you should
"butter" each piece, put the piece in place, remove it to inspect for adequate
contact, then put in place and clamp however. If this had been done, pulling
the nails wouldn't matter.
However, if you're not totally sure about actual contact and coverage, I think
the nails should definitely be left in place.
Just another data point.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400047#400047
Message 5
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How long do I soak the 1/4 x 1/2 strip? I tried over night and the grain split
open this morning when I placed it in the jig.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400063#400063
Message 6
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In a message dated 5/6/2013 12:20:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
j_dunavin@hotmail.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "j_dunavin" <j_dunavin@hotmail.com>
How long do I soak the 1/4 x 1/2 strip? I tried over night and the grain
split open this morning when I placed it in the jig.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400063#400063
What kind of wood and how close are the grains?
Corky
Message 7
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Whoa that does not sound right. Is your top airfoil correct? Using spruce? Good
grain? Never had one of mine split, and just soaked overnight in a PVC pipe.
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
On May 6, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "j_dunavin" <j_dunavin@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> How long do I soak the 1/4 x 1/2 strip? I tried over night and the grain split
open this morning when I placed it in the jig.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400063#400063
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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It's spruce from aircraft spruce.
I will have to measure the grains.
The jig is off of the 1:1 plans you buy.
I'll take some pictures when I get home, but one of the guys at work thinks maybe
I don't have enough support blocks on the jig. It did split as I placed the
piece just aft of the rib in place. That is what I was going to use to hold it
in place while it dried
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400070#400070
Message 9
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I steamed mine for about 10 to 15 min
Had much better luck steaming than soaking
--------
Earl Brown
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I
intended to be.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400071#400071
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett wing volume |
Oscar,
Neither. I used clamps.
After trying nails as well as staples, I decided to cut out the holes in my jig
so as to use clips. Very happy with the result. As Tools suggested in another
thread, I buttered both the spruce cap strips and verticals as well as the gussets,
let them set up for a bit, then clamped them with Harbor Freight clamps.
Once they set up, I would pop them off the jig, flip the rib over, clean up
the joint, then glue up the second side. I usually did side B of rib 1 at the
same time I did side A of rib 2 that was now in the jig. I think you get the idea.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400077#400077
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_166.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: pulling nails... |
Do the nails ever show a tendency to pull out or lift from the surface? I think
I remember some comments about not using nails on the wing leading edge because
they tend to pull out and poke through the fabric. I think someone referred
to the leading edge looking like a porcupine.
Any proof of this? The effort to pull brads far out weighs the penalty of a few
extra pounds. There are easier ways to save weight.
Thanks,
Ray Krause
SkyScout
Sent from my iPad
On May 6, 2013, at 7:18 AM, "tools" <n0kkj@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I never entered one of these discussions before, because I've not built an entire
plane, or for that matter, ever put nails in, or left them out.
>
> However, I learned a lot while repairing N2RN after the undercarriage event.
>
> I had to "dismantle" several joints in the fuselage, to allow installation of
new longeron sections. That is, I had to remove the interior gussets, and carve
out the lower longeron.
>
> Dick did not build this area either, by the way. The joints LOOKED PERFECT.
Good wood, obvious use of resorcinol, seemed nicely fit... then I pulled off
a gusset plate (with it's hundred nails...). The interior of the joint was a
mess (wish I took pics).
>
> The glue didn't make contact on that interior gusset but over maybe ten percent
of the area. The pieces were all different thicknesses although the plate
made contact at the edges so looked alright with the appropriate amount of "squeeze
out" there. 90 percent of the strength (derived from that gusset) came
from the nails that had been left in place. However, the joint showed NO ill
effects from the crash. Everything was tight, strong and nothing had shifted.
>
> The gusset on the other side (the fuse side) was good. It's clear that side
was glued up first (or seems most likely so).
>
> I was very surprised. There's a (not so difficult) method to gluing thing up.
It's not a lot unlike laying floor tiles. I think for best results you should
"butter" each piece, put the piece in place, remove it to inspect for adequate
contact, then put in place and clamp however. If this had been done, pulling
the nails wouldn't matter.
>
> However, if you're not totally sure about actual contact and coverage, I think
the nails should definitely be left in place.
>
> Just another data point.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400047#400047
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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I had lots of trouble with my AS&S capstrip breaking until I soaked them in a 4"pvc
tube with two tea pots worth of boiling water for 35-45 minutes.
They bent very easily but you had to get them into the bending jig quickly before
they cooled.
I left them in the jig overnight and was very happy with how they set up.
--------
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Do Not Archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400083#400083
Message 13
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Support blocks? Hopefully your photos will help explain what you're talking about.
Usually, a capstrip bending jig is a smooth curve that provides continuous
support through the curved portion of the profile. localized blocks in place
of continuous support can introduce stress risers, since the capstrip will
only be shaped at the points where it makes contact with the blocks. See attached
sketch by the late, great Tony Bingelis. Additionally, steaming the capstrips
will provide more flexibility than simply soaking the wood in water. The
heat of the steam breaks down the lignin in the wood (the "glue" that holds
the fibers together), and allows the wood fibers to move, relative to each other.
When the wood cools down, so does the lignin, and it resets. Sort of like
melting wax.
Bill C.
j_dunavin wrote:
> I'll take some pictures when I get home, but one of the guys at work thinks maybe
I don't have enough support blocks on the jig. It did split as I placed the
piece just aft of the rib in place. That is what I was going to use to hold
it in place while it dried
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400085#400085
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/makingwoodwingribs_780.jpg
Message 14
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I built a cap strip steamer and it took only 15-20 minutes to get the cap strip
to bend nicely.
See at:
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=Bjardine&project=2212&category=8547
Brian
SLC-UT
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400089#400089
Message 15
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Is Brodhead really ending on the 28th?
Seems unusually late this year.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett wing volume |
I have a pin nailer. This thing pops out 23 gauge little
things you can hardly see. A wing's worth would be
hardly an ounce or so.
Clif
Pilot's breakfast; coffee and a pee, donut and a dump.
> I posted a picture a while back when I finished my ribs. I used staples
> and kept them all to weigh after I pulled them. The total weight savings
> was about 6.5 oz. Next time I'd use nails and forgo the cup of coffee
> before flight.
> Curt Merdan
> Flower Mound, TX
Message 17
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The only part that really needs help is the front foot or
so of the top rib. The rest is so gentle a curve it will
easily bend cold. I made a steamer out of an older electric
kettle with a round spout. This spout fit almost exactly in
some aluminum vacuum tube. Below is a drawing of the
rib bending jig I built. It's a few layers of particle board
glued together, cut out onthe bandsaw then smoothed
on my sander to a curve a bit tighter than the rib nose
curve. Screwed some hardware store 4" angle brackets
to it a bit more than 1/4" above the bending surface.
The steamed ribs were bent in under those brackets
four at a time and left till I needed them the next day.
Now when you're doing serious bending of large
pieces for furniture and boats an outside strap is
often necessary to deal with the grain splitting away.
This is almost always when the bend is on the flat of
the grain, not in edge grain. Wood bends easier when
the grain is parallel with the jig though. In our application
flat or edge grain bending shouldn't be a problem.
Clif
> Support blocks? Hopefully your photos will help explain what you're
> talking about. Usually, a capstrip bending jig is a smooth curve that
> provides continuous support through the curved portion of the profile.
> localized blocks in place of continuous support can introduce stress
> risers, since the capstrip will only be shaped at the points where it
> makes contact with the blocks. See attached sketch by the late, great
> Tony Bingelis. Additionally, steaming the capstrips will provide more
> flexibility than simply soaking the wood in water. The heat of the steam
> breaks down the lignin in the wood (the "glue" that holds the fibers
> together), and allows the wood fibers to move, relative to each other.
> When the wood cools down, so does the lignin, and it resets. Sort of like
> melting wax.
>
> Bill C.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: pulling nails... |
They can, as the wood expands and contracts it tends to back nails out.
One thing that helps is to drive nails slowly. That tends to bend wood fibers
over so they tend to hold the nail. Driven quickly (especially like a pneumatic
driven nail), the fibers break, so the nail has less pull out resistance.
Driving a nail into the face of "vertical grain", or quarter sawn will help, as
wood is more dimensionally stable that way than plain sawn.
The more well sealed the wood, the less it will expand and contract, so that helps.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400101#400101
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