---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/06/13: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:04 AM - Re: Riblett wing volume (helspersew@aol.com) 2. 04:59 AM - Re: Riblett wing volume (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 3. 07:02 AM - Re: Riblett wing volume (Craig Aho) 4. 07:19 AM - pulling nails... (tools) 5. 10:20 AM - ribs (j_dunavin) 6. 10:40 AM - Re: ribs (Isablcorky@aol.com) 7. 10:48 AM - Re: ribs (Jack) 8. 11:10 AM - Re: ribs (j_dunavin) 9. 11:11 AM - Re: ribs (echobravo4) 10. 12:01 PM - Re: Riblett wing volume (jarheadpilot82) 11. 12:07 PM - Re: pulling nails... (Ray Krause) 12. 12:53 PM - Re: ribs (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 13. 02:23 PM - Re: ribs (Bill Church) 14. 03:28 PM - Re: ribs (Pilot78) 15. 03:34 PM - Brodhead dates (Douwe Blumberg) 16. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Riblett wing volume (Clif Dawson) 17. 07:50 PM - Re: Re: ribs (Clif Dawson) 18. 11:38 PM - Re: pulling nails... (tools) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume From: helspersew@aol.com Wow Craig...you have unleashed the hornet's nest once again. The answer is yes, I believe, that most builders would not change to a non-Pietenpol airf oil. The recent flight test info from P.F. and Don from Barnwell S.C. would indicate no reason to do so, unless of course you want to increase your ra nge to a point of wearing calluses on your behind and stretching your bladd er to the ultimate limit between fuel stops. This opinion does not extend t o the boys that have elected to install large engines (some for good reason s). But for an airplane flying in the flatlands, not worried about lifting heavy loads or operating from short runways, the normal fuel tank is as muc h fuel as you need. My Ford burns maybe 4 gal per hour, so with 11 gallons I can sit there for 2 hours with a fine reserve left. Two hours in a Piet i s a long time, even with a comfy seat. (Ducking for cover) Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Craig Aho Sent: Sun, May 5, 2013 2:32 pm Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume So is the concensus that most Piet builders would not change to the 4412 or Riblett? > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume > From: airlion2@gmail.com > Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:06:12 -0400 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > I have a 36in center section with the fuel tank inside and an outlet at the front and at the back.It holds 20.5 gallons and with my corvair power I figure 3.5 hrs. cheers, Gardiner > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 5, 2013, at 1:32 PM, "taildrags" wrote: > m> > > > > By the way, just looking at Terry's wing ribs, I am reminded about the possibilities of putting fuel tanks in the wings now. With the relatively flat Pietenpol wing (less than 5" tall), it's tough to get much volume in a wing bay. Curious to know how much the typical centersection fuel tank ho lds when constructed to Air Camper plans. I've heard that it is around 10 gallons, maybe a little less. > > > > The Riblett 613.5 should be about 8" tall (13.5% of 60" =8.1"). With rib spacing of 11" and spars about 27" apart, a Riblett wing bay should ha ve a volume of around 8 gallons. Putting a wing tank on each side would pr ovide 16 gallons and essentially all of it would be usable, unlike the last 2 or 2.5 gallons of fuel in 41CC, which are just too low in the tank to fl ow reliably, especially in anything other than straight and level flight. With the fuel in the wings, gravity flow is much better, and it moves the f uel away from the cockpit. That can be a big plus, as William Wynne found out the hard way when his plane crashed and fuel in the cockpit burned him badly and destroyed the airplane. Another plus is that the CG will not shi ft as fuel is used up in wing tanks. And you can keep the centersection fo r storing things. And you can get to the rear of the firewall easier. And ... and... > > > > -------- > > Oscar Zuniga > > Medford, OR > > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > > A75 power > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399995#399995 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >================ > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett wing volume From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" Re: pulling staples I posted a picture a while back when I finished my ribs. I used staples and kept them all to weigh after I pulled them. The total weight savings was about 6.5 oz. Next time I'd use nails and forgo the cup of coffee before flight. -------- Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400036#400036 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:58 AM PST US From: Craig Aho Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume Hello Dan=2C Sorry I am an long time RC Sailplane flyer and in that arena t here is always a discussion on low renolds numbers and airfoils for better performance and wind tunnel data from Selig=2C Donavan=2C Eppler and the la test Dr. Drela. So I think it is a bit of an adiction for me. Also I dont r emember there being much of a discussion back in 1993 when I started buildi ng my first Air Camper. Anyway I was just curious. Thanks for the reply. C raig To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume From: helspersew@aol.com =0A Wow Craig...you have unleashed the hornet's nest once again. The answer is yes=2C I believe=2C that most builders would not change to a non-Pietenpol airfoil. The recent flight test info from P.F. and Don from Barnwell S.C. w ould indicate no reason to do so=2C unless of course you want to increase y our range to a point of wearing calluses on your behind and stretching your bladder to the ultimate limit between fuel stops. This opinion does not ex tend to the boys that have elected to install large engines (some for good reasons). But for an airplane flying in the flatlands=2C not worried about lifting heavy loads or operating from short runways=2C the normal fuel tank is as much fuel as you need. My Ford burns maybe 4 gal per hour=2C so with 11 gallons I can sit there for 2 hours with a fine reserve left. Two hours in a Piet is a long time=2C even with a comfy seat.=0A =0A =0A =0A (Ducking for cover)=0A =0A =0A =0A Dan Helsper=0A =0A Puryear=2C TN=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A -----Original Message----- =0A From: Craig Aho =0A =0A Sent: Sun=2C May 5=2C 2013 2:32 pm =0A Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A So is the concensus that most Piet builders would not change to the 4412 or Riblett? =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wing volume =0A > From: airlion2@gmail.com =0A > Date: Sun=2C 5 May 2013 15:06:12 -0400 =0A > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0A > =0A =0A > =0A > I have a 36in center section with the fuel tank inside and an outlet at the front and at the back.It holds 20.5 gallons and with my corvair power I figure 3.5 hrs. cheers=2C Gardiner =0A > =0A > Sent from my iPad =0A > =0A > On May 5=2C 2013=2C at 1:32 PM=2C "taildrags" wro te: =0A > =0A m> =0A > > =0A > > By the way=2C just looking at Terry's wing ribs=2C I am reminded about the possibilities of putting fuel tanks in the wings now. With the relativ ely flat Pietenpol wing (less than 5" tall)=2C it's tough to get much volum e in a wing bay. Curious to know how much the typical centersection fuel t ank holds when constructed to Air Camper plans. I've heard that it is arou nd 10 gallons=2C maybe a little less. =0A > > =0A > > The Riblett 613.5 should be about 8" tall (13.5% of 60" =8.1"). With rib spacing of 11" and spars about 27" apart=2C a Riblett wing bay should have a volume of around 8 gallons. Putting a wing tank on each side would provide 16 gallons and essentially all of it would be usable=2C unlike the last 2 or 2.5 gallons of fuel in 41CC=2C which are just too low in the tank to flow reliably=2C especially in anything other than straight and level f light. With the fuel in the wings=2C gravity flow is much better=2C and it moves the fuel away from the cockpit. That can be a big plus=2C as Willia m Wynne found out the hard way when his plane crashed and fuel in the cockp it burned him badly and destroyed the airplane. Another plus is that the C G will not shift as fuel is used up in wing tanks. And you can keep the ce ntersection for storing things. And you can get to the rear of the firewal l easier. And... and... =0A > > =0A > > -------- =0A > > Oscar Zuniga =0A > > Medford=2C OR =0A > > Air Camper NX41CC "=3BScout"=3B =0A > > A75 power =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > Read this topic online here: =0A > > =0A > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=399995#399995 =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A > > =0A >================ =0A > =0A > =0A > =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0A tp://forums.matronics.com=0A _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: pulling nails... From: "tools" I never entered one of these discussions before, because I've not built an entire plane, or for that matter, ever put nails in, or left them out. However, I learned a lot while repairing N2RN after the undercarriage event. I had to "dismantle" several joints in the fuselage, to allow installation of new longeron sections. That is, I had to remove the interior gussets, and carve out the lower longeron. Dick did not build this area either, by the way. The joints LOOKED PERFECT. Good wood, obvious use of resorcinol, seemed nicely fit... then I pulled off a gusset plate (with it's hundred nails...). The interior of the joint was a mess (wish I took pics). The glue didn't make contact on that interior gusset but over maybe ten percent of the area. The pieces were all different thicknesses although the plate made contact at the edges so looked alright with the appropriate amount of "squeeze out" there. 90 percent of the strength (derived from that gusset) came from the nails that had been left in place. However, the joint showed NO ill effects from the crash. Everything was tight, strong and nothing had shifted. The gusset on the other side (the fuse side) was good. It's clear that side was glued up first (or seems most likely so). I was very surprised. There's a (not so difficult) method to gluing thing up. It's not a lot unlike laying floor tiles. I think for best results you should "butter" each piece, put the piece in place, remove it to inspect for adequate contact, then put in place and clamp however. If this had been done, pulling the nails wouldn't matter. However, if you're not totally sure about actual contact and coverage, I think the nails should definitely be left in place. Just another data point. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400047#400047 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:20:03 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs From: "j_dunavin" How long do I soak the 1/4 x 1/2 strip? I tried over night and the grain split open this morning when I placed it in the jig. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400063#400063 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:27 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs In a message dated 5/6/2013 12:20:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time, j_dunavin@hotmail.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "j_dunavin" How long do I soak the 1/4 x 1/2 strip? I tried over night and the grain split open this morning when I placed it in the jig. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400063#400063 What kind of wood and how close are the grains? Corky ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:48:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs From: Jack Whoa that does not sound right. Is your top airfoil correct? Using spruce? Good grain? Never had one of mine split, and just soaked overnight in a PVC pipe. Sent from my iPad Jack Textor On May 6, 2013, at 12:19 PM, "j_dunavin" wrote: > > How long do I soak the 1/4 x 1/2 strip? I tried over night and the grain split open this morning when I placed it in the jig. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400063#400063 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:07 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ribs From: "j_dunavin" It's spruce from aircraft spruce. I will have to measure the grains. The jig is off of the 1:1 plans you buy. I'll take some pictures when I get home, but one of the guys at work thinks maybe I don't have enough support blocks on the jig. It did split as I placed the piece just aft of the rib in place. That is what I was going to use to hold it in place while it dried Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400070#400070 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ribs From: "echobravo4" I steamed mine for about 10 to 15 min Had much better luck steaming than soaking -------- Earl Brown I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400071#400071 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett wing volume From: "jarheadpilot82" Oscar, Neither. I used clamps. After trying nails as well as staples, I decided to cut out the holes in my jig so as to use clips. Very happy with the result. As Tools suggested in another thread, I buttered both the spruce cap strips and verticals as well as the gussets, let them set up for a bit, then clamped them with Harbor Freight clamps. Once they set up, I would pop them off the jig, flip the rib over, clean up the joint, then glue up the second side. I usually did side B of rib 1 at the same time I did side A of rib 2 that was now in the jig. I think you get the idea. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400077#400077 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_166.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:11 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: pulling nails... Do the nails ever show a tendency to pull out or lift from the surface? I think I remember some comments about not using nails on the wing leading edge because they tend to pull out and poke through the fabric. I think someone referred to the leading edge looking like a porcupine. Any proof of this? The effort to pull brads far out weighs the penalty of a few extra pounds. There are easier ways to save weight. Thanks, Ray Krause SkyScout Sent from my iPad On May 6, 2013, at 7:18 AM, "tools" wrote: > > I never entered one of these discussions before, because I've not built an entire plane, or for that matter, ever put nails in, or left them out. > > However, I learned a lot while repairing N2RN after the undercarriage event. > > I had to "dismantle" several joints in the fuselage, to allow installation of new longeron sections. That is, I had to remove the interior gussets, and carve out the lower longeron. > > Dick did not build this area either, by the way. The joints LOOKED PERFECT. Good wood, obvious use of resorcinol, seemed nicely fit... then I pulled off a gusset plate (with it's hundred nails...). The interior of the joint was a mess (wish I took pics). > > The glue didn't make contact on that interior gusset but over maybe ten percent of the area. The pieces were all different thicknesses although the plate made contact at the edges so looked alright with the appropriate amount of "squeeze out" there. 90 percent of the strength (derived from that gusset) came from the nails that had been left in place. However, the joint showed NO ill effects from the crash. Everything was tight, strong and nothing had shifted. > > The gusset on the other side (the fuse side) was good. It's clear that side was glued up first (or seems most likely so). > > I was very surprised. There's a (not so difficult) method to gluing thing up. It's not a lot unlike laying floor tiles. I think for best results you should "butter" each piece, put the piece in place, remove it to inspect for adequate contact, then put in place and clamp however. If this had been done, pulling the nails wouldn't matter. > > However, if you're not totally sure about actual contact and coverage, I think the nails should definitely be left in place. > > Just another data point. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400047#400047 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ribs From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" I had lots of trouble with my AS&S capstrip breaking until I soaked them in a 4"pvc tube with two tea pots worth of boiling water for 35-45 minutes. They bent very easily but you had to get them into the bending jig quickly before they cooled. I left them in the jig overnight and was very happy with how they set up. -------- Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400083#400083 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ribs From: "Bill Church" Support blocks? Hopefully your photos will help explain what you're talking about. Usually, a capstrip bending jig is a smooth curve that provides continuous support through the curved portion of the profile. localized blocks in place of continuous support can introduce stress risers, since the capstrip will only be shaped at the points where it makes contact with the blocks. See attached sketch by the late, great Tony Bingelis. Additionally, steaming the capstrips will provide more flexibility than simply soaking the wood in water. The heat of the steam breaks down the lignin in the wood (the "glue" that holds the fibers together), and allows the wood fibers to move, relative to each other. When the wood cools down, so does the lignin, and it resets. Sort of like melting wax. Bill C. j_dunavin wrote: > I'll take some pictures when I get home, but one of the guys at work thinks maybe I don't have enough support blocks on the jig. It did split as I placed the piece just aft of the rib in place. That is what I was going to use to hold it in place while it dried Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400085#400085 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/makingwoodwingribs_780.jpg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:18 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: ribs From: "Pilot78" I built a cap strip steamer and it took only 15-20 minutes to get the cap strip to bend nicely. See at: http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=Bjardine&project=2212&category=8547 Brian SLC-UT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=400089#400089 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:32 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead dates Is Brodhead really ending on the 28th? Seems unusually late this year. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:15 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett wing volume I have a pin nailer. This thing pops out 23 gauge little things you can hardly see. A wing's worth would be hardly an ounce or so. Clif Pilot's breakfast; coffee and a pee, donut and a dump. > I posted a picture a while back when I finished my ribs. I used staples > and kept them all to weigh after I pulled them. The total weight savings > was about 6.5 oz. Next time I'd use nails and forgo the cup of coffee > before flight. > Curt Merdan > Flower Mound, TX ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:47 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: ribs The only part that really needs help is the front foot or so of the top rib. The rest is so gentle a curve it will easily bend cold. I made a steamer out of an older electric kettle with a round spout. This spout fit almost exactly in some aluminum vacuum tube. Below is a drawing of the rib bending jig I built. It's a few layers of particle board glued together, cut out onthe bandsaw then smoothed on my sander to a curve a bit tighter than the rib nose curve. Screwed some hardware store 4" angle brackets to it a bit more than 1/4" above the bending surface. The steamed ribs were bent in under those brackets four at a time and left till I needed them the next day. Now when you're doing serious bending of large pieces for furniture and boats an outside strap is often necessary to deal with the grain splitting away. This is almost always when the bend is on the flat of the grain, not in edge grain. Wood bends easier when the grain is parallel with the jig though. In our application flat or edge grain bending shouldn't be a problem. Clif > Support blocks? Hopefully your photos will help explain what you're > talking about. Usually, a capstrip bending jig is a smooth curve that > provides continuous support through the curved portion of the profile. > localized blocks in place of continuous support can introduce stress > risers, since the capstrip will only be shaped at the points where it > makes contact with the blocks. See attached sketch by the late, great > Tony Bingelis. Additionally, steaming the capstrips will provide more > flexibility than simply soaking the wood in water. The heat of the steam > breaks down the lignin in the wood (the "glue" that holds the fibers > together), and allows the wood fibers to move, relative to each other. > When the wood cools down, so does the lignin, and it resets. Sort of like > melting wax. > > Bill C. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: pulling nails... From: "tools" They can, as the wood expands and contracts it tends to back nails out. One thing that helps is to drive nails slowly. That tends to bend wood fibers over so they tend to hold the nail. Driven quickly (especially like a pneumatic driven nail), the fibers break, so the nail has less pull out resistance. Driving a nail into the face of "vertical grain", or quarter sawn will help, as wood is more dimensionally stable that way than plain sawn. The more well sealed the wood, the less it will expand and contract, so that helps. 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