Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: Hangar door riff-raff (Clif Dawson)
2. 12:41 AM - Re: Re: Jury struts yes or no? (Clif Dawson)
3. 05:31 AM - Re: Hangar door riff-raff (Kip and Beth Gardner)
4. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: Wing Leading Edge (Michael Perez)
5. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Hangar door riff-raff (Jim Ash)
6. 06:55 AM - jury struts (Douwe Blumberg)
7. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: fuel flow test (Rick Schreiber)
8. 07:00 AM - fuel flow (Douwe Blumberg)
9. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Prop crush plate (Rick Schreiber)
10. 07:39 AM - Re: Wing Leading Edge (BYD)
11. 07:43 AM - Re: fuel flow test (jarheadpilot82)
12. 07:44 AM - Re: jury struts (BYD)
13. 08:25 AM - Re: jury struts (Mario Giacummo)
14. 08:31 AM - Re: West Coast Pietenpol Gathering 2013 (Bill Roach)
15. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Hangar door riff-raff (airlion2@gmail.com)
16. 11:20 AM - Re: fuel flow test (Jerry Dotson)
17. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow test (Lion Mason)
18. 01:06 PM - Re: fuel flow test (Jerry Dotson)
19. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow test (Lion Mason)
20. 06:51 PM - Corvair cooling eyebrows (Robert Bush)
21. 07:00 PM - Continental Engine (Charles Burkholder)
22. 07:47 PM - Re: what is a "flight manual" and an "equipment list" (Fun2av8)
23. 09:49 PM - =?utf-8?Q?cooling_eyebrows? (=?utf-8?Q?randybush2@gmail.com?=)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Hangar door riff-raff |
God must love primitive life forms.
He made so many of them.
Er, us.
Someone
Clif :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Bickers
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:31 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hangar door riff-raff
Speaking of hangar door riff-raff, a few weeks ago a fella I=92d never
met ' we=92ll call him Dale, since that=92s what he said was his name
Dale hasn=92t been back, though I suppose it is probably inevitable.
I=92m sure he=92s got some fresh pearls of wisdom. At least that=92s
what I think I=92ll call the things that emanate from him and the south
end of a north bound horse.
Cheers, Ken
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Jury struts yes or no? |
A strut is a "column". There are "long" columns and
"short" columns. What defines each is the ratio of
cross section to length. Basicaly a jury strut turns
a long column into two short ones. The compression
force that will bend either of the short ones goes up
dramaticaly over that of the single long , skinny one.
So without a jury strut the wing strut would have to
be at least 3" deep to qualify as a "short" strut and
be able to handle the compression loads. For
steamlining then, this silly thing would be 6" wide!!
Hmmmm.... I think I'll go with jury struts meself.
Clif
It ain't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that
just ain't so." Josh Billings
>
> Alright I'll buy that. Keep the lift strut sound when loaded in
> compression. Thanks!
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Hangar door riff-raff |
Another version:
> "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach
phys. ed.
On May 23, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Robert Gow wrote:
>
>
> Actually it goes like this:
>
> "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach,
> work for Transport Canada (or FAA)."
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM
> STINEMETZE
> Sent: May 23, 2013 5:26 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hangar door riff-raff
>
> --> <TOMS@mcpcity.com>
>
> My wife is a teacher and I work in municipal government so I must be
> circumspect with whom I share this with, but the complete quotation goes
> as follows:
>
> "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach,
> administrate."
>
> I suspect your hanger visitor was a high, muckety-muck, administrator.
>
> Stinemetze,
> N328X
> do not archive
>
>>>> "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca> 5/23/2013 3:47 PM >>>
>
> Those who can do - do. Those who cannot come into your hanger and tell
> you how to do it. The world is full of experts.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Leading Edge |
Thank you Paul. Looks nice, good job.
Michael Perez
Pietenpol HINT Videos
Karetaker Aero
www.karetakeraero.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Hangar door riff-raff |
On occasion, I've taught classes and seminars. Once in a while, somebody shows
up, not to learn something, but to prove to the world they know more than you
do (I give them the benefit of the doubt that they might, but those that really
do usually sit quietly and politely).
In the course of collecting and showing Corvairs, maybe once per each well-attended
car show I'd get the same type of person with this-or-that Corvair story,
but the one in their story had four cylinders. The laugh was that they were adamant
about it. My first couple times, I entertained the discussion, but it gets
old fast. I came to saying "That's nice" or something brief, then made myself
scarce. Another trick (if you're thinking fast enough) is to tell the 'expert'
you don't know a lot about it (their ludicrous subject), but a friend in
the club over there does and they would really like to hear about it. With a little
savvy, the 'expert' doesn't even know they're being taken for a ride. You
get two-fers; the 'expert' goes away, and you get to jerk the chain of a friend
a little. Word of caution, this one can go both ways.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: biplan53 <biplan53@hotmail.com>
>Sent: May 23, 2013 9:06 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hangar door riff-raff
>
>
>I agree with Terry. I retired from AT&T after 38 years and I have seen this first
hand. The people who could not cut it were made managers. Getting back to
the "experts", I guess it's best to ask to see their airplanes. The more I work
on my airplane the the more respect I have for the people who have built one.
>
>--------
>Building steel fuselage aircamper.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401268#401268
>
>
Message 6
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I only get the list every morning, so the "jury strut" answer has already
been put out here, but I feel so strongly about it I want to chime in too.
As mentioned.
1. This is all discussed in the archives
2. The jury strut supports the strut, not the wing
3. The jury strut supports the strut in negative G's only
4. The wing experiences surprisingly strong G's ALL THE TIME in even
moderate turbulence (afternoon flights) and landings
5. In such a cluttered airframe as a Piet, the "drag" of four jury
struts is probably un-measurable
6. The old strut tubing Bernhard used DID have internal webbing, ours
does NOT.
7. There is a substantiated old case of a guy trying to loop a Piet,
(idiot) he let some negative G's creep in and the wings folded up.
8. Jury struts should not be placed in the center of the strut, but
offset towards the wingtip.
In conclusion. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT NOT PUTTING JURY STRUTS ON.
Douwe
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow test |
Shad, Terry and Ken, thanks for the replies. I do have the Uncle Tony
books and am planning on following his recommendations. What I was
unsure of is the likely maximum angle of attack of a corvair powered
Pietenpol. Since I plan on something less than 100 horsepower,
my max angle of attack should be similar to what is obtained with a
continental powerplant. I have a 19 gallon nose tank with a Stromberg
carb. I will have some ram air pressurization, but I am unsure how
effective that will be. I think I will set the angle of the top
longerons at 20 deg. just to be conservative.
Regards,
Rick Schreiber
Message 8
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There was a great little article in the newsletter a while back about fuel
flow with low fuel, and under acceleration.
The combination caused a condition of insufficient fuel flow pressure. So,
you think you have enough fuel in the tank and go take off but didn't
account for the acceleration forces resisting the fuel pressure, which is
now pretty low.
Something to think about.
Douwe
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Prop crush plate |
Craig and Oscar, since I have the material, I'll make my own crush plate.
Rick S.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Leading Edge |
Which ply of the plywood do you use to determine the grain?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401290#401290
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow test |
Rick,
Look at what 20 degrees looks like when you get it set, and I think that you will
agree that you are unlikely to pitch the nose up that high on a regular basis,
so 20 should work just fine.
people don't realize that 25-30 degrees looks like about 45 degrees when simply
looking outside. It is just not a pitch attitude you will see much of.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401291#401291
Message 12
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> Jury struts, Yes or no?
YES
I made straps that wrap around the lift struts and grab the jury struts out of
.025-inch aluminum 1-inch wide quick and easy, but not adequate. While breaking
in the Model-A, the brackets on both front lift struts broke. I replaced
all brackets with a little thicker stainless-steel brackets and all seems fine
but I can tell you those forward struts see a lot of pulsing (vibration) from
the prop blast even while just sitting on the ground.
Find a Piet with jury struts and try to move the struts up and down, then unbolt
one end of the strut and try again youll quickly see why they are there.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401292#401292
Message 13
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I though jury struts where to kill/eliminate/prevent resonance on strus,
that's why they are not in the midle/center of them and are so thin.
Mario Giacummo
2013/5/24 Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
> I only get the list every morning, so the =93jury strut=94 answer has
> already been put out here, but I feel so strongly about it I want to chim
e
> in too.****
>
> ** **
>
> As mentioned=85****
>
> ** **
>
> 1. This is all discussed in the archives****
> 2. The jury strut supports the strut, not the wing****
> 3. The jury strut supports the strut in negative G=92s only****
> 4. The wing experiences surprisingly strong G=92s ALL THE TIME in even
> moderate turbulence (afternoon flights) and landings****
> 5. In such a cluttered airframe as a Piet, the =93drag=94 of four jury
> struts is probably un-measurable****
> 6. The old strut tubing Bernhard used DID have internal webbing, ours
> does NOT.****
> 7. There is a substantiated old case of a guy trying to loop a Piet,
> (idiot) he let some negative G=92s creep in and the wings folded up.**
**
> 8. Jury struts should not be placed in the center of the strut, but
> offset towards the wingtip.****
>
> ** **
>
> In conclusion. DON=92T EVEN THINK ABOUT NOT PUTTING JURY STRUTS ON.****
>
> ** **
>
> Douwe****
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: West Coast Pietenpol Gathering 2013 |
Hi Mike
-
I will be bringing my son David-with me this year.- That makes 2 of us.
We are looking forward to being there.
Bill Roach
10110 Hale Ave.
Morgan Hill, CA 95037
Cell Phone #: (408)529-1697
e-mail: bill.roach@att.net
--- On Tue, 5/21/13, Michael Groah <dskogrover@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Michael Groah <dskogrover@yahoo.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: West Coast Pietenpol Gathering 2013
Just a quick reminder that the West Coast Pietenpol Gathering is just a wee
k and a half away!-- Saturday June 1st is fast approaching and I am rea
lly looking forward to the event.- I hope to see you there.-
-(See the attached info sheet for the details.)-
-
Mike Groah
414MV
Tulare CA
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Hangar door riff-raff |
Just so ya,ll know what an expert stands for. x is the unknown factor and spert
is a drip under pressure. Cheers, airlion
Sent from my iPad
On May 24, 2013, at 8:57 AM, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> On occasion, I've taught classes and seminars. Once in a while, somebody shows
up, not to learn something, but to prove to the world they know more than you
do (I give them the benefit of the doubt that they might, but those that really
do usually sit quietly and politely).
>
> In the course of collecting and showing Corvairs, maybe once per each well-attended
car show I'd get the same type of person with this-or-that Corvair story,
but the one in their story had four cylinders. The laugh was that they were
adamant about it. My first couple times, I entertained the discussion, but it
gets old fast. I came to saying "That's nice" or something brief, then made myself
scarce. Another trick (if you're thinking fast enough) is to tell the 'expert'
you don't know a lot about it (their ludicrous subject), but a friend in
the club over there does and they would really like to hear about it. With a
little savvy, the 'expert' doesn't even know they're being taken for a ride.
You get two-fers; the 'expert' goes away, and you get to jerk the chain of a friend
a little. Word of caution, this one can go both ways.
>
> Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: biplan53 <biplan53@hotmail.com>
>> Sent: May 23, 2013 9:06 PM
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hangar door riff-raff
>>
>>
>> I agree with Terry. I retired from AT&T after 38 years and I have seen this
first hand. The people who could not cut it were made managers. Getting back to
the "experts", I guess it's best to ask to see their airplanes. The more I work
on my airplane the the more respect I have for the people who have built one.
>>
>> --------
>> Building steel fuselage aircamper.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401268#401268
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow test |
I stated I tested my Piet at 30 degrees. And certainly not trying to start any
type of discontent. I always climb at 65 and this is the angle 65 has(in the picture).
I feel a climb at 50 would get close to30 degrees. Anyway it flowed enough
gas at that test angle to feed a 300 horsepower engine.
--------
Jerry Dotson
First flight June 16,2012
Flying in phase 2
Lycoming O-235 C2C
Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401297#401297
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a28_145.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/a27_389.jpg
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow test |
How is your ticker doing Jerry? Will you be able to go to brodhead this year? I
hope so. Cheers Gardiner
Sent from my iPhone
On May 24, 2013, at 2:20 PM, "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@centurylink.net> wrote:
>
> I stated I tested my Piet at 30 degrees. And certainly not trying to start any
type of discontent. I always climb at 65 and this is the angle 65 has(in the
picture). I feel a climb at 50 would get close to30 degrees. Anyway it flowed
enough gas at that test angle to feed a 300 horsepower engine.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
>
> First flight June 16,2012
> Flying in phase 2
> Lycoming O-235 C2C
> Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401297#401297
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/a28_145.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/a27_389.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow test |
Gardiner I replied to your bellsouth email.
--------
Jerry Dotson
First flight June 16,2012
Flying in phase 2
Lycoming O-235 C2C
Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401299#401299
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: fuel flow test |
Jerry, my new email is Airlion2@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On May 24, 2013, at 4:06 PM, "Jerry Dotson" <jdotson@centurylink.net> wrote:
>
> Gardiner I replied to your bellsouth email.
>
> --------
> Jerry Dotson
>
> First flight June 16,2012
> Flying in phase 2
> Lycoming O-235 C2C
> Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401299#401299
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Corvair cooling eyebrows |
Hello all,
Does anyone have the drawings for Hans vandervoort's cooling eyebrows? And if so
could you post them or send the m to me at randybush2@gmail.com
Thanks,
Randy Bush
NX294RB
Sent from my iPhone
Message 21
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| Subject: | Continental Engine |
Hey guys I'm looking for a Continental 65 or 85 engine.... I know
everybody's looking for them so I'm just throwing it out there. Doesn't
have to be low time (higher cost). If you have one sitting in the
corner of your hangar let me know.....Contact me on my private email....
Charles Burkholder
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: what is a "flight manual" and an "equipment list" |
Thoughts on having a Minimum Equipment List (MEL) for a Pietenpol.
It really boils down to what are your chances ....
You'd be ramp check by Mr. FAA
Have an accident because of a missing/inop item that was a no go item like a broken
Airspeed Indicator or an expired inspection/certification on your Altimeter.
Your insurance company would look very unsympathetically at the missing MEL and
the situation that occurred because you didnt have one.
I guess I have a sort of mixed blessing. A real good friend of mine, who lives
three houses down the street is in the Dulles Flight Standards Office and he
is among other things a Ramp Checker. I overheard the other day at the local
FBO that a couple of guys got ramp checked recently and it sorta went OK. Since
Dulles is in our backyard - it doesn't come as a surprise that we get the
ole "Hi, We're from the FAA and we're here to help you!" greeting. SO.......
to be on the safe side with my Piet - I've been studying the rules with lots of
encouragement from my friend (?)
Do Piet's have a Minimum Equipment List ? Some say we do and some say we don't.
Now, If nothing ever goes wrong and you never get ramp checked maybe you dont
need one. If my 30 years in general aviation has taught me anything its
that where the FAA is concerned Yes, Henry there is a rule for that! You say
But this rule says it dont apply FAA says True but these two obscure rules
says it does! Its a stacked deck!
Here's what you can expect a really sharp Inspector might say during your ramp
check right after he/she has finished with your Weight & Balance review. May
I see your MEL? (Google Figure 56 FAR Part 91 Ramp Inspection Job Aid)
If you say you do not need an MEL for your airplane - then he/she will use http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=Publication&doctype=MMEL and look at you with a big smile and ask you:
Is your aircraft listed under Airplanes? .. No, its a Pietenpol
Is your aircraft a Single Engine Airplane long pause .Yes .Gotcha !!!
Then since you dont have an MEL M SE Airplane R1 -- Single Engine Airplane, Rev.
1 Date -- 11/23/2011 now becomes your default MEL.
This MEL lists every possible piece of equipment that could conceivably be installed
in a single engine airplane. Its an unbelievably long list pages and pages.
The Ramp Check of your airplane starts using this MEL. Now, if everything in your
Piet is working and you have all the required goodies (ELT, Shoulder Harness,
Day VFR instruments, Pertinent Charts, Placards, Fire Extinguisher {seen that
discussed in another post}.etc.) then you are golden. But if you are missing
a mandatory item or if its broke he/she can ground the aircraft.
Luckily, there are a few caveats some of this stuff has a grandfather clause i.e.,
if your aircraft was certified before a certain date the requirement for
that particular item does not apply.
My Piet was built in 1988 it all applies!!!! There are other reasons some of
the stuff may or may not be required. But, you should know what does and what
doesnt its your airplane. Me, I know that its ALL required.
Cant Beatm Joinm: Heres my approach Im going to create an MEL that lists all
the Day VFR Required Equipment (91.205) and put it in the front of my Operations
Manual.
Airspeed indicator.
Altimeter.
Magnetic Compass and correction card
Tachometer
Oil pressure gauge (for each engine using pressure system)
Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine. (Not Me!)
Oil temperature gauge (for each air-cooled engine)
Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.
There are some work-arounds for this one.
Safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device
Shoulder Harness each seat Applies to Piets manufactured after July 18, 1978,
Emergency locator transmitter 91.207.
Appropriate Placards and Warnings
I am hoping that the Ramp Checker will find this more acceptable rather than telling
him I dont have one. Worst case he would point out something Im missing,
ask me to correct it, and send me on my way.
After all when you really boil it down its a piece of paper in the front of your
AFM. I will post mine when its done it will be in MS Word so you can add/change/delete
entries as you see fit.
My 2 cents on the subject . Happy Memorial Day!
I welcome any corrections to the above please cite references -- its good for
all of us to have this stuff right and readily available.
--------
Jim McWhorter
N687MB (New Owner)
Culpeper, VA KCJR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401310#401310
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