---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/24/13: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:41 AM - Re: Hangar door riff-raff (Clif Dawson) 2. 12:41 AM - Re: Re: Jury struts yes or no? (Clif Dawson) 3. 05:31 AM - Re: Hangar door riff-raff (Kip and Beth Gardner) 4. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: Wing Leading Edge (Michael Perez) 5. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Hangar door riff-raff (Jim Ash) 6. 06:55 AM - jury struts (Douwe Blumberg) 7. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: fuel flow test (Rick Schreiber) 8. 07:00 AM - fuel flow (Douwe Blumberg) 9. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Prop crush plate (Rick Schreiber) 10. 07:39 AM - Re: Wing Leading Edge (BYD) 11. 07:43 AM - Re: fuel flow test (jarheadpilot82) 12. 07:44 AM - Re: jury struts (BYD) 13. 08:25 AM - Re: jury struts (Mario Giacummo) 14. 08:31 AM - Re: West Coast Pietenpol Gathering 2013 (Bill Roach) 15. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: Hangar door riff-raff (airlion2@gmail.com) 16. 11:20 AM - Re: fuel flow test (Jerry Dotson) 17. 12:21 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow test (Lion Mason) 18. 01:06 PM - Re: fuel flow test (Jerry Dotson) 19. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: fuel flow test (Lion Mason) 20. 06:51 PM - Corvair cooling eyebrows (Robert Bush) 21. 07:00 PM - Continental Engine (Charles Burkholder) 22. 07:47 PM - Re: what is a "flight manual" and an "equipment list" (Fun2av8) 23. 09:49 PM - =?utf-8?Q?cooling_eyebrows? (=?utf-8?Q?randybush2@gmail.com?=) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:29 AM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hangar door riff-raff God must love primitive life forms. He made so many of them. Er, us. Someone Clif :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Bickers To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hangar door riff-raff Speaking of hangar door riff-raff, a few weeks ago a fella I=92d never met ' we=92ll call him Dale, since that=92s what he said was his name Dale hasn=92t been back, though I suppose it is probably inevitable. I=92m sure he=92s got some fresh pearls of wisdom. At least that=92s what I think I=92ll call the things that emanate from him and the south end of a north bound horse. Cheers, Ken ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:36 AM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jury struts yes or no? A strut is a "column". There are "long" columns and "short" columns. What defines each is the ratio of cross section to length. Basicaly a jury strut turns a long column into two short ones. The compression force that will bend either of the short ones goes up dramaticaly over that of the single long , skinny one. So without a jury strut the wing strut would have to be at least 3" deep to qualify as a "short" strut and be able to handle the compression loads. For steamlining then, this silly thing would be 6" wide!! Hmmmm.... I think I'll go with jury struts meself. Clif It ain't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that just ain't so." Josh Billings > > Alright I'll buy that. Keep the lift strut sound when loaded in > compression. Thanks! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Hangar door riff-raff From: Kip and Beth Gardner Another version: > "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys. ed. On May 23, 2013, at 5:43 PM, Robert Gow wrote: > > > Actually it goes like this: > > "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, > work for Transport Canada (or FAA)." > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM > STINEMETZE > Sent: May 23, 2013 5:26 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hangar door riff-raff > > --> > > My wife is a teacher and I work in municipal government so I must be > circumspect with whom I share this with, but the complete quotation goes > as follows: > > "Those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, > administrate." > > I suspect your hanger visitor was a high, muckety-muck, administrator. > > Stinemetze, > N328X > do not archive > >>>> "Robert Gow" 5/23/2013 3:47 PM >>> > > Those who can do - do. Those who cannot come into your hanger and tell > you how to do it. The world is full of experts. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:59 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Leading Edge Thank you Paul. Looks nice, good job. Michael Perez Pietenpol HINT Videos Karetaker Aero www.karetakeraero.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:59 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hangar door riff-raff On occasion, I've taught classes and seminars. Once in a while, somebody shows up, not to learn something, but to prove to the world they know more than you do (I give them the benefit of the doubt that they might, but those that really do usually sit quietly and politely). In the course of collecting and showing Corvairs, maybe once per each well-attended car show I'd get the same type of person with this-or-that Corvair story, but the one in their story had four cylinders. The laugh was that they were adamant about it. My first couple times, I entertained the discussion, but it gets old fast. I came to saying "That's nice" or something brief, then made myself scarce. Another trick (if you're thinking fast enough) is to tell the 'expert' you don't know a lot about it (their ludicrous subject), but a friend in the club over there does and they would really like to hear about it. With a little savvy, the 'expert' doesn't even know they're being taken for a ride. You get two-fers; the 'expert' goes away, and you get to jerk the chain of a friend a little. Word of caution, this one can go both ways. Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: biplan53 >Sent: May 23, 2013 9:06 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hangar door riff-raff > > >I agree with Terry. I retired from AT&T after 38 years and I have seen this first hand. The people who could not cut it were made managers. Getting back to the "experts", I guess it's best to ask to see their airplanes. The more I work on my airplane the the more respect I have for the people who have built one. > >-------- >Building steel fuselage aircamper. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401268#401268 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:50 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: jury struts I only get the list every morning, so the "jury strut" answer has already been put out here, but I feel so strongly about it I want to chime in too. As mentioned. 1. This is all discussed in the archives 2. The jury strut supports the strut, not the wing 3. The jury strut supports the strut in negative G's only 4. The wing experiences surprisingly strong G's ALL THE TIME in even moderate turbulence (afternoon flights) and landings 5. In such a cluttered airframe as a Piet, the "drag" of four jury struts is probably un-measurable 6. The old strut tubing Bernhard used DID have internal webbing, ours does NOT. 7. There is a substantiated old case of a guy trying to loop a Piet, (idiot) he let some negative G's creep in and the wings folded up. 8. Jury struts should not be placed in the center of the strut, but offset towards the wingtip. In conclusion. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT NOT PUTTING JURY STRUTS ON. Douwe ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:43 AM PST US From: Rick Schreiber Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel flow test Shad, Terry and Ken, thanks for the replies. I do have the Uncle Tony books and am planning on following his recommendations. What I was unsure of is the likely maximum angle of attack of a corvair powered Pietenpol. Since I plan on something less than 100 horsepower, my max angle of attack should be similar to what is obtained with a continental powerplant. I have a 19 gallon nose tank with a Stromberg carb. I will have some ram air pressurization, but I am unsure how effective that will be. I think I will set the angle of the top longerons at 20 deg. just to be conservative. Regards, Rick Schreiber ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:12 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel flow There was a great little article in the newsletter a while back about fuel flow with low fuel, and under acceleration. The combination caused a condition of insufficient fuel flow pressure. So, you think you have enough fuel in the tank and go take off but didn't account for the acceleration forces resisting the fuel pressure, which is now pretty low. Something to think about. Douwe ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:03 AM PST US From: Rick Schreiber Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Prop crush plate Craig and Oscar, since I have the material, I'll make my own crush plate. Rick S. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Leading Edge From: "BYD" Which ply of the plywood do you use to determine the grain? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401290#401290 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel flow test From: "jarheadpilot82" Rick, Look at what 20 degrees looks like when you get it set, and I think that you will agree that you are unlikely to pitch the nose up that high on a regular basis, so 20 should work just fine. people don't realize that 25-30 degrees looks like about 45 degrees when simply looking outside. It is just not a pitch attitude you will see much of. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401291#401291 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: jury struts From: "BYD" > Jury struts, Yes or no? YES I made straps that wrap around the lift struts and grab the jury struts out of .025-inch aluminum 1-inch wide quick and easy, but not adequate. While breaking in the Model-A, the brackets on both front lift struts broke. I replaced all brackets with a little thicker stainless-steel brackets and all seems fine but I can tell you those forward struts see a lot of pulsing (vibration) from the prop blast even while just sitting on the ground. Find a Piet with jury struts and try to move the struts up and down, then unbolt one end of the strut and try again youll quickly see why they are there. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401292#401292 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:19 AM PST US From: Mario Giacummo Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: jury struts I though jury struts where to kill/eliminate/prevent resonance on strus, that's why they are not in the midle/center of them and are so thin. Mario Giacummo 2013/5/24 Douwe Blumberg > I only get the list every morning, so the =93jury strut=94 answer has > already been put out here, but I feel so strongly about it I want to chim e > in too.**** > > ** ** > > As mentioned=85**** > > ** ** > > 1. This is all discussed in the archives**** > 2. The jury strut supports the strut, not the wing**** > 3. The jury strut supports the strut in negative G=92s only**** > 4. The wing experiences surprisingly strong G=92s ALL THE TIME in even > moderate turbulence (afternoon flights) and landings**** > 5. In such a cluttered airframe as a Piet, the =93drag=94 of four jury > struts is probably un-measurable**** > 6. The old strut tubing Bernhard used DID have internal webbing, ours > does NOT.**** > 7. There is a substantiated old case of a guy trying to loop a Piet, > (idiot) he let some negative G=92s creep in and the wings folded up.** ** > 8. Jury struts should not be placed in the center of the strut, but > offset towards the wingtip.**** > > ** ** > > In conclusion. DON=92T EVEN THINK ABOUT NOT PUTTING JURY STRUTS ON.**** > > ** ** > > Douwe**** > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:48 AM PST US From: Bill Roach Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: West Coast Pietenpol Gathering 2013 Hi Mike - I will be bringing my son David-with me this year.- That makes 2 of us. We are looking forward to being there. Bill Roach 10110 Hale Ave. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 Cell Phone #: (408)529-1697 e-mail: bill.roach@att.net --- On Tue, 5/21/13, Michael Groah wrote: From: Michael Groah Subject: Pietenpol-List: West Coast Pietenpol Gathering 2013 Just a quick reminder that the West Coast Pietenpol Gathering is just a wee k and a half away!-- Saturday June 1st is fast approaching and I am rea lly looking forward to the event.- I hope to see you there.- -(See the attached info sheet for the details.)- - Mike Groah 414MV Tulare CA ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hangar door riff-raff From: airlion2@gmail.com Just so ya,ll know what an expert stands for. x is the unknown factor and spert is a drip under pressure. Cheers, airlion Sent from my iPad On May 24, 2013, at 8:57 AM, Jim Ash wrote: > > > On occasion, I've taught classes and seminars. Once in a while, somebody shows up, not to learn something, but to prove to the world they know more than you do (I give them the benefit of the doubt that they might, but those that really do usually sit quietly and politely). > > In the course of collecting and showing Corvairs, maybe once per each well-attended car show I'd get the same type of person with this-or-that Corvair story, but the one in their story had four cylinders. The laugh was that they were adamant about it. My first couple times, I entertained the discussion, but it gets old fast. I came to saying "That's nice" or something brief, then made myself scarce. Another trick (if you're thinking fast enough) is to tell the 'expert' you don't know a lot about it (their ludicrous subject), but a friend in the club over there does and they would really like to hear about it. With a little savvy, the 'expert' doesn't even know they're being taken for a ride. You get two-fers; the 'expert' goes away, and you get to jerk the chain of a friend a little. Word of caution, this one can go both ways. > > Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig. > > Jim Ash > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: biplan53 >> Sent: May 23, 2013 9:06 PM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Hangar door riff-raff >> >> >> I agree with Terry. I retired from AT&T after 38 years and I have seen this first hand. The people who could not cut it were made managers. Getting back to the "experts", I guess it's best to ask to see their airplanes. The more I work on my airplane the the more respect I have for the people who have built one. >> >> -------- >> Building steel fuselage aircamper. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401268#401268 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel flow test From: "Jerry Dotson" I stated I tested my Piet at 30 degrees. And certainly not trying to start any type of discontent. I always climb at 65 and this is the angle 65 has(in the picture). I feel a climb at 50 would get close to30 degrees. Anyway it flowed enough gas at that test angle to feed a 300 horsepower engine. -------- Jerry Dotson First flight June 16,2012 Flying in phase 2 Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401297#401297 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/a28_145.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/a27_389.jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel flow test From: Lion Mason How is your ticker doing Jerry? Will you be able to go to brodhead this year? I hope so. Cheers Gardiner Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2013, at 2:20 PM, "Jerry Dotson" wrote: > > I stated I tested my Piet at 30 degrees. And certainly not trying to start any type of discontent. I always climb at 65 and this is the angle 65 has(in the picture). I feel a climb at 50 would get close to30 degrees. Anyway it flowed enough gas at that test angle to feed a 300 horsepower engine. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > > First flight June 16,2012 > Flying in phase 2 > Lycoming O-235 C2C > Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 > do not archive > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401297#401297 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/a28_145.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/a27_389.jpg > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:06:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel flow test From: "Jerry Dotson" Gardiner I replied to your bellsouth email. -------- Jerry Dotson First flight June 16,2012 Flying in phase 2 Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401299#401299 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel flow test From: Lion Mason Jerry, my new email is Airlion2@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2013, at 4:06 PM, "Jerry Dotson" wrote: > > Gardiner I replied to your bellsouth email. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > > First flight June 16,2012 > Flying in phase 2 > Lycoming O-235 C2C > Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 > do not archive > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401299#401299 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair cooling eyebrows From: Robert Bush Hello all, Does anyone have the drawings for Hans vandervoort's cooling eyebrows? And if so could you post them or send the m to me at randybush2@gmail.com Thanks, Randy Bush NX294RB Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:54 PM PST US From: "Charles Burkholder" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Continental Engine Hey guys I'm looking for a Continental 65 or 85 engine.... I know everybody's looking for them so I'm just throwing it out there. Doesn't have to be low time (higher cost). If you have one sitting in the corner of your hangar let me know.....Contact me on my private email.... Charles Burkholder ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: what is a "flight manual" and an "equipment list" From: "Fun2av8" Thoughts on having a Minimum Equipment List (MEL) for a Pietenpol. It really boils down to what are your chances .... You'd be ramp check by Mr. FAA Have an accident because of a missing/inop item that was a no go item like a broken Airspeed Indicator or an expired inspection/certification on your Altimeter. Your insurance company would look very unsympathetically at the missing MEL and the situation that occurred because you didnt have one. I guess I have a sort of mixed blessing. A real good friend of mine, who lives three houses down the street is in the Dulles Flight Standards Office and he is among other things a Ramp Checker. I overheard the other day at the local FBO that a couple of guys got ramp checked recently and it sorta went OK. Since Dulles is in our backyard - it doesn't come as a surprise that we get the ole "Hi, We're from the FAA and we're here to help you!" greeting. SO....... to be on the safe side with my Piet - I've been studying the rules with lots of encouragement from my friend (?) Do Piet's have a Minimum Equipment List ? Some say we do and some say we don't. Now, If nothing ever goes wrong and you never get ramp checked maybe you dont need one. If my 30 years in general aviation has taught me anything its that where the FAA is concerned Yes, Henry there is a rule for that! You say But this rule says it dont apply FAA says True but these two obscure rules says it does! Its a stacked deck! Here's what you can expect a really sharp Inspector might say during your ramp check right after he/she has finished with your Weight & Balance review. May I see your MEL? (Google Figure 56 FAR Part 91 Ramp Inspection Job Aid) If you say you do not need an MEL for your airplane - then he/she will use http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=Publication&doctype=MMEL and look at you with a big smile and ask you: Is your aircraft listed under Airplanes? .. No, its a Pietenpol Is your aircraft a Single Engine Airplane long pause .Yes .Gotcha !!! Then since you dont have an MEL M SE Airplane R1 -- Single Engine Airplane, Rev. 1 Date -- 11/23/2011 now becomes your default MEL. This MEL lists every possible piece of equipment that could conceivably be installed in a single engine airplane. Its an unbelievably long list pages and pages. The Ramp Check of your airplane starts using this MEL. Now, if everything in your Piet is working and you have all the required goodies (ELT, Shoulder Harness, Day VFR instruments, Pertinent Charts, Placards, Fire Extinguisher {seen that discussed in another post}.etc.) then you are golden. But if you are missing a mandatory item or if its broke he/she can ground the aircraft. Luckily, there are a few caveats some of this stuff has a grandfather clause i.e., if your aircraft was certified before a certain date the requirement for that particular item does not apply. My Piet was built in 1988 it all applies!!!! There are other reasons some of the stuff may or may not be required. But, you should know what does and what doesnt its your airplane. Me, I know that its ALL required. Cant Beatm Joinm: Heres my approach Im going to create an MEL that lists all the Day VFR Required Equipment (91.205) and put it in the front of my Operations Manual. Airspeed indicator. Altimeter. Magnetic Compass and correction card Tachometer Oil pressure gauge (for each engine using pressure system) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine. (Not Me!) Oil temperature gauge (for each air-cooled engine) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank. There are some work-arounds for this one. Safety belt with an approved metal-to-metal latching device Shoulder Harness each seat Applies to Piets manufactured after July 18, 1978, Emergency locator transmitter 91.207. Appropriate Placards and Warnings I am hoping that the Ramp Checker will find this more acceptable rather than telling him I dont have one. Worst case he would point out something Im missing, ask me to correct it, and send me on my way. After all when you really boil it down its a piece of paper in the front of your AFM. I will post mine when its done it will be in MS Word so you can add/change/delete entries as you see fit. My 2 cents on the subject . Happy Memorial Day! I welcome any corrections to the above please cite references -- its good for all of us to have this stuff right and readily available. -------- Jim McWhorter N687MB (New Owner) Culpeper, VA KCJR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=401310#401310 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: =?utf-8?Q?cooling_eyebrows? From: "=?utf-8?Q?randybush2@gmail.com?=" aGVsbG8gYWxsLA0KDQppZiBhbnlvbmUgb3V0IHRoZXJlIGhhcyB0aGUgZHJhd2luZyBmb3IgdGhl IEhhbnMgVmFuZGVydm9vcnQgY29ydmFpciBjb29saW5nIGV5ZWJyb3dzLGNvdWxkIHlvdSBwb3N0 IHRoZW0uIEkgYW0gcmUgZG9pbmcgbWluZSBhbmQgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byB1c2UgaGlzIGRyYXdp bmdzIHRvIGRvIHNvLiBvciBjb250YWN0IG1lIG9mZiBsaXN0IGF0IHJhbmR5YnVzaDJAZ21haWwu Y29tDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCg0KUmFuZHkgQnVzaA0KDQpOWDI5NFJCDQoNCg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIFdp bmRvd3MgTWFpbA= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.