---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/08/13: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:42 AM - Re: Broken Bungee & How I repaired it (nightmare) 2. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: squirrelly on the gear (Gary Boothe) 3. 10:35 AM - riblett attack (Michael Weston) 4. 11:36 AM - Re: riblett attack (Mark Roberts) 5. 12:09 PM - Re: riblett attack (tools) 6. 12:27 PM - Re: riblett attack (tkreiner) 7. 01:29 PM - Wire spoke wheels size... (Mark Roberts) 8. 01:32 PM - Re: squirrelly on the gear (Greg Cardinal) 9. 03:56 PM - Pietenpol " Wing Kit ' FOR SALE (Pietflyer1977) 10. 04:18 PM - 4130 tubing FOR SALE (Pietflyer1977) 11. 04:29 PM - Attaching ribs to spars question (Mark Roberts) 12. 04:36 PM - Re: Attaching ribs to spars question (Gary Boothe) 13. 04:39 PM - Re: Attaching ribs to spars question (dwilson) 14. 04:46 PM - Re: Wire spoke wheels size... (Greg Cardinal) 15. 05:51 PM - Re: riblett attack (jarheadpilot82) 16. 06:07 PM - Re: squirrelly on the gear (taildrags) 17. 06:16 PM - landing gear weight (taildrags) 18. 06:51 PM - Re: riblett attack (John Woods) 19. 09:44 PM - Re: Attaching ribs to spars question (Jim Boyer) 20. 10:02 PM - Re: Attaching ribs to spars question (Mark Roberts) 21. 10:06 PM - Re: riblett attack (Mark Roberts) 22. 10:18 PM - Ash fuse gear block mounts... Just realized are 3/4 not 1&qu (Mark Roberts) 23. 10:28 PM - Re: riblett attack (jarheadpilot82) 24. 10:48 PM - Re: Ash fuse gear block mounts... Just realized are 3/4 not 1&qu (jarheadpilot82) 25. 10:55 PM - Re: riblett attack (Mark Roberts) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Broken Bungee & How I repaired it From: "nightmare" Thanks Jerry, appreciate all the feedback guys. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402275#402275 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: squirrelly on the gear From: Gary Boothe My wheels are 52" to center. Upper longeron is 54 1/2". Additionally, thanks to note from Jerry Dotson, I see that my tail wheel swivels at a greater rate than the rudder. A longer tail wheel control arm will correct that. Seems that the wheel should either match the rudder or be slightly less. Gary Sent from my iPhone On Jun 7, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Michael Groah wrote: > > Ok Gary. My straight axle gear has a width (center to center of tire) of 62.75 inches. With the upper longeron level the distance from the ground to the top of the upper longeron is 54.75 inches. > > I have 90 landings on it so far and I think the handling is far better and easier to land than the Champ I did my tail wheel endorsement in. > > > Mike Groah > 414MV > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 6, 2013, at 3:58 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > >> >> Yes, Oscar...you are! ;-) >> >> But allow me to clarify...there's a difference between squirrely and tippy. >> My problem is tippy. Gear too narrow for its height. I don't think all this >> data would mean anything without taking height into consideration to solve a >> tippy problem. >> >> BTW - "Tippy" is the word supplied by Kevin, so I'm sure it's >> UNCLASSIFIED.... >> >> Gary Boothe >> NX308MB >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of taildrags >> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 3:50 PM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: squirrelly on the gear >> >> --> >> >> The distance between centers of tire tread on Scout (with split J-3 style >> gear) is right at 57" with nobody in the airplane. >> >> Is somebody going to put all these data points into Excel and generate a >> nifty statistical bell curve showing the most popular spacing? ;o) >> >> -------- >> Oscar Zuniga >> Medford, OR >> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" >> A75 power >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402158#402158 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:44 AM PST US From: Michael Weston Subject: Pietenpol-List: riblett attack so,here is my little question.where is the angle of incidence on the 30-612 profile measured from? the chord line? the bottoms of the spars? the bottom of the airfoil? any ideas? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: riblett attack From: "Mark Roberts" Good Question. I thought I knew until I started to write a reply, and in my reply I began to question my own understanding of it, so help us here all you aerodynamically qualified people! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402286#402286 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: riblett attack From: "tools" As I recall from all the aero classes I've taken, it's measured from the chord line. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402287#402287 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: riblett attack From: "tkreiner" >From that quintessential tome, Theory of Wing Sections, the angle of attack is "the angle between the plane of the wing and the direction of motion." Not totally clear. If only the authors had stated whether the chord is, in fact, the chord of the wing. In fact, however, it would appear that the plane of the airfoil is indeed, the mean aerodynamic chord. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can chime in? -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402289#402289 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:29:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire spoke wheels size... From: "Mark Roberts" In the current discussion of the height of the landing gear, I am wondering if you wire spoked wheel guys can tell me what wheels you chose, what size they are when inflated, and where you got them. I am drawing out my landing gear design from the "improved" gear design, but plan to use wire spoked wheels, not 6" tires. So, I want to keep the overall height of the top of the fuse in the same location as plans, but, that will require compensation for the additional height of the spoked wheels... Since I have not purchased the wheels, I am wondering what size I should be designing to match. Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402291#402291 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:26 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: squirrelly on the gear On NX18235 the track is 56" and the top longeron is at 50". Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "taildrags" Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 7:58 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: squirrelly on the gear > > I changed the subject line ;o) Gary, what is the track (distance between > contact patches) of your mains? I know there's a word for it but I can't > remember it right now. Just interested in comparing that dimension > between airplanes, as I'm sure it does have some effect on ground > handling. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402012#402012 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol " Wing Kit ' FOR SALE From: "Pietflyer1977" Hello all, I have moved on to other airplanes and decided not to continue on with my Piet project. I have a really nice " Wing Kit " to give someone a nice start on there wings. Everything is spruce and mahogany plywood. I have all the ribs built, the spruce spars have all the plywood plates on and holes drilled. Was at the point of starting to to put the ribs on and wings together but never glued so all the ribs are slid back off. Center section is glued up and all is squared perfect. All holes are right on and all slides right together with perfect fit. Have all the wood to build wings and ailerons. All spruce. Had a wood shop make a cutter and make the leading edge to a smooth rounded edge. Also had trailing edge milled to fit tongue and groove in trailing edge of ribs. All is in a 15' box for easy hauling. Have all Ken Perkins water jet fittings that were epoxy primed and painted satin black. Will sell for less than half of what I have in materials and labor is free. You all know what spruce cost and Ken's parts alone are almost work what I am asking. Will sell all for $ 1,500.00 and someone would have a jump start on a nice set of wings. All workmanship is quality. You will not be disappointed. Will try and post some pictures here. In the pictures the wings are sitting together but not glued. As I say they are all apart now and everything is in a easy haul-able size. If anyone would like more pictures or info. email me direct to my email. Thanks Rob 812-932-9000 or 812-689-1254 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402295#402295 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ad_pic_2_146.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/center_135.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/ad_pic_397.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: 4130 tubing FOR SALE From: "Pietflyer1977" I have moved on to other airplanes that have came up and stoped work on my Piet. Was planning on building a steel tube fuselage and tail feathers. I have all the 4130 tubing to build the fuselage per plans the correct size and wall thickness. Also the correct size tubing for the tail feathers. All in long 20' to 24' pieces and upper longerons can be made one piece. All is either USA or Germany made. No stuff from China! My loss is your gain. Will sell for less than half of what it cost new. Will sell for $ 900.00. Thanks Rob 812-932-9000 or 812-689-1254 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402296#402296 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:29:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Attaching ribs to spars question From: "Mark Roberts" I feel a bit embarrassed to ask, but I am curious about rib attachment to the spars. I remember reading once that the ribs can be simply nailed to the spars as they are held to the spars with the drag anti-drag wires and compression strut assembly. This makes it easier to replace broken ribs and spars as necessary if damaged. I had planned to glue everything together. Again, seems like a stupid question unless you need a wing repair. Gary's new "project" caused me to think of the issue. Seems like you would need more than 4 nails tacked into both spars and the drag/anti drag wires and compression struts... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402297#402297 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Attaching ribs to spars question From: Gary Boothe Once covered and stitched, those ribs ain't goin' nowhere! My spar replace project got infinitely easier without glued ribs!! Gary Sent from my iPhone On Jun 8, 2013, at 4:28 PM, "Mark Roberts" wrote: > > I feel a bit embarrassed to ask, but I am curious about rib attachment to the spars. I remember reading once that the ribs can be simply nailed to the spars as they are held to the spars with the drag anti-drag wires and compression strut assembly. This makes it easier to replace broken ribs and spars as necessary if damaged. > > I had planned to glue everything together. > > Again, seems like a stupid question unless you need a wing repair. Gary's new "project" caused me to think of the issue. Seems like you would need more than 4 nails tacked into both spars and the drag/anti drag wires and compression struts... > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402297#402297 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:44 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Attaching ribs to spars question From: "dwilson" Once the fabric covering is applied and rib stitched where can that entire assembly really go anyway... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402299#402299 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:57 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wire spoke wheels size... Mark, On NX18235 we have 19" rims and the tires are Chen Shin 19 X 3.50 with the treads shaved off. Fully inflated they are about 25" tall. The tires were purchased from JC Whitney. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Roberts" Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 3:28 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Wire spoke wheels size... > > > In the current discussion of the height of the landing gear, I am > wondering if you wire spoked wheel guys can tell me what wheels you chose, > what size they are when inflated, and where you got them. > > I am drawing out my landing gear design from the "improved" gear design, > but plan to use wire spoked wheels, not 6" tires. > > So, I want to keep the overall height of the top of the fuse in the same > location as plans, but, that will require compensation for the additional > height of the spoked wheels... > > Since I have not purchased the wheels, I am wondering what size I should > be designing to match. > > Thanks! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402291#402291 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: riblett attack From: "jarheadpilot82" Tom, he is asking about angle of incidence, not angle of attack. Wolfgang Langewiesche in his great book, Stick and Rudder, defined angle of incidence as "the angle at which your wings are set with reference to the lengthwise axis of your airplane." Navy Flight School textbooks define it as "The acute angle between the chord line of the airfoil and a selected reference plane, usually the longitudinal axis of the aircraft." So, I believe Tools' earlier post is the more correct definition. As to earlier posts of a few days ago, it doesn't matter as much if your ribs are set so the chord is perpendicular to the spars. What matters is how they eventually are set with reference to the longitudinal axis, most likely measured from the upper longeron on the fuselage. My $.02 -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402302#402302 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:36 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: squirrelly on the gear From: "taildrags" Okay. I was at the hangar and measured 50-3/4" from the top of the top longeron to the ground with Scout in the level attitude. Right in line with most other folks' measurements. I happen to have a somewhat unique situation, in that I have a complete set of "Daddy Longlegs" spoked motorcycle wheel landing gear in the hangar. I assembled the pieces onto the jig and made a few measurements; see photo. Pay no attention to the fact that one bungee shock strut is mounted 180 degrees out of whack. You get the idea. Surprisingly, the track (width) of the motorcycle wheel landing gear setup is within 1/2" of the Cub-style gear that I have mounted, and the distance from the ground to the bottom of the bottom longeron is only 1-1/2" more with the motorcycle tire setup than with the Cub-style split gear. I guess Piets just look taller and tippier with skinny spoked wheels and tires on them ;o) -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402303#402303 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0531_774.jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: landing gear weight From: "taildrags" To go back to a topic that was discussed a couple of weeks ago, I weighed the motorcycle wheel/tire gear leg setup that I have. See picture; it's a very conventional setup with Buchanan's spoke and wheel work, aluminum rims. The gear, brakes, tires, legs, bungees, etc. MINUS the wooden jig weighs 53.5 lbs. The wooden jig, which is oak and also mounts the two gear leg/wing strut fittings that go on the lower longerons, weighs 13 lbs. with the gear leg mounting bolts on it ;o) -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402304#402304 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0527_211.jpg ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:17 PM PST US From: John Woods Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: riblett attack Michael, Here is an extract of email from Graham Hewitt who is flying a Riblett 612 Pietenpol=C2-down here=C2-in Australia..... How to set the incidence of the 612 Riblett airfoil It is based on the True Chord line=C2- this is a straight line connecting the exact center of the L/E to the center of the T/E Draw this line clearly on your center section Rib, clamp a straight edge to it,=C2- then with a smart level set this one degree positive to the Datu m of the top longeron Cut your cabanes to achieve this Hope this helps. John Woods Perth Western Australia ----- "Michael Weston" wrote: > so,here is my little question.where is the angle of incidence on the 30-612 profile measured from? the chord line? the bottoms of the spars? the botto m of the airfoil? any ideas? ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:59 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Attaching ribs to spars question HI Mark, My ribs are glued to the spars on the one wing I have built so far. Second wing will be the same. Jim B. =C2- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Attaching ribs to spars question From: "Mark Roberts" Thanks guys. It is good to know that they can just be tacked into place and hold just fine. I had thought they needed to be glued, and I started thinking about it in light of your repair project Gary... So it's good to know for my future build of the wing. Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402309#402309 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: riblett attack From: "Mark Roberts" God bless you my brotha' from down unda'! That just helped me a bunch! Saving this text thread for future reference.... Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402310#402310 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ash fuse gear block mounts... Just realized are 3/4 not 1&qu From: "Mark Roberts" I just realized I have built my fuse with 3/4" thick ash mounts, not 1" thick tapering to 3/4" at the ends where they meet the fuse. I really don't know of this is a big deal or not. Strength there is a good thing, but I don't know if the extra 1/4" is going to keep me from a gear collapse or what. I have already painted over both pieces with 2 coats of spar varnish. Thoughts? Reassurances? Bets from the gallery as to when my gear collapses on me? Measure twice, install once... :? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402311#402311 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: riblett attack From: "jarheadpilot82" Mark, Here is a link to a previous thread discussing the Riblett incidence. http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=83884&highlight=riblett+incidence I agree that the Aussie answer makes the most sense from a practical, builder point of view. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402313#402313 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:24 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ash fuse gear block mounts... Just realized are 3/4 not 1&qu From: "jarheadpilot82" Mark, > Thoughts? Reassurances? Bets from the gallery as to when my gear collapses on me? I don't see those mounts as part of my set of plans, so I do not 100% understand what you are asking. I am sure that plenty of other guys can chime in that do. So, my question is this - what is the lost mass of the quarter inch relative to the plans mount? Obviously, you are 25% thinner (3/4 inch vice 1 inch), but that line tapers. So you are not 25% less overall mass. Are you 10%? 15%? 17.5%? I constantly see people write that this airplane is "overbuilt" (meaning that it is an overly strong design), but is that good enough for you to go fly your family with this change to the mount? That is your call, and that is the real question. I guess that is one of the reasons that they call it experimental amateur built. You can be your own test pilot on your personally designed mount. But ask Tools how much fun it is to replace gear when it collapses. Not fun, I would expect. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402314#402314 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:34 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: riblett attack From: "Mark Roberts" Thanks Terry. I had forgotten all about that post. I read it when it was first listed, but forgot all about it. Thanks for the reminder! Mark Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=402315#402315 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.