---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/14/13: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:02 AM - Air Force Museum (Douwe Blumberg) 2. 06:47 AM - Re: NC Piet NX327BC (Jerry Dotson) 3. 07:00 AM - Upcoming Corvair Colleges (kevinpurtee) 4. 07:18 AM - Dynamic balancing ? (Larry Vetter) 5. 07:38 AM - Re: Dynamic balancing ? (Gary Boothe) 6. 07:47 AM - Re: Dynamic balancing ? (tools) 7. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: Dynamic balancing ? (Ken Bickers) 8. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: NC Piet NX327BC (randy cary) 9. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Dynamic balancing ? (Michael Perez) 10. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: Dynamic balancing ? (Michael Perez) 11. 09:21 AM - Re: Upcoming Corvair Colleges (bdewenter) 12. 10:44 AM - Re: Air Force Museum (Steve Emo) 13. 12:34 PM - Re: Dynamic balancing ? (tools) 14. 03:43 PM - Re: Off Topic -- Ohio Flyers -- Help (dgaldrich) 15. 09:51 PM - ford oil pressure (Oscar Zuniga) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:26 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Air Force Museum Hey, Does anyone have a contact at the Dayton/Wright Patterson Air Force Museum? Douwe ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:21 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NC Piet NX327BC From: "Jerry Dotson" I know very little. A guy named Jack (last name escapes me) from around the Orlando area owned it some years ago. It was hangared at X61. My friend has his J3 there. The airplane has some damage history.......a landing accident at Thomasville, Ga fly-in a couple or 3 years back. I could find the previous owner last name if need be. -------- Jerry Dotson First flight June 16,2012 Flying in phase 2 Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406693#406693 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Upcoming Corvair Colleges From: "kevinpurtee" If you're considering using a Corvair for your Piet then plan to attend one of the three upcoming Corvair Colleges. The return on investment is incredible. CC26: 18 - 20 Sep, Mexico, MO, Zenith Factory CC27: 8 - 10 Nov, Barnwell, SC, PF Beck & Friends CC28: 28 Feb - 2 Mar, San Marcos, TX, Shelley & me See you there! -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee Rebuilding NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406695#406695 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dynamic balancing ? From: "Larry Vetter" Its been suggested by the previous owner that both wooden props I have be dynamically balanced. Both were carved by a prop carving machine. I haven't researched dynamic balancing, but have heard it was rather expensive. Have any of you using a hand carved or machine carved prop had one dynamically balanced? Doesn't it require balancing the prop to the engine? Thanks for any input. Larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406697#406697 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dynamic balancing ? From: Gary Boothe Larry, My Corvair powered Piet has flown with 3 hand carved props, all hand balanced on 3 axis and adjusted to track true within 1/8". All ran very smoothly, but I have no idea if dynamic balance would improve anything. Gary NX308MB Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2013, at 7:18 AM, "Larry Vetter" wrote: > > Its been suggested by the previous owner that both wooden props I have be dynamically balanced. Both were carved by a prop carving machine. I haven't researched dynamic balancing, but have heard it was rather expensive. > Have any of you using a hand carved or machine carved prop had one dynamically balanced? Doesn't it require balancing the prop to the engine? > Thanks for any input. > Larry > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406697#406697 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dynamic balancing ? From: "tools" In the case of a propeller, dynamic balancing is more effective than static balancing when it's installed where it's going to be used. In other words, there is NO advantage taking the prop somewhere and asking them to dynamically balance it and return it. It has to be installed on YOUR plane. And if you ever remove it, you've lost that advantage, it would have to be done again (unless CAREFULLY reinstalled EXACTLY like it was... never a certainty). The reason for this is a propeller is not thick, compared to it's diameter, it's a "single plane" balancing problem. Careful static balancing (where you hang it and determine the heavy blade and either remove a bit, or add some varnish to the other blade) is completely effective. A crankshaft, on the other hand, is long compared to it's diameter and NEEDS to be dynamically balanced. It can be perfectly statically balanced but still be so out of balance the engine won't even run... Static balancing cannot detect multi plane problems. So, do you need dynamic balancing? First, lets say with a known good propeller (and metal for it's repeatability) does your engine run smoothly? It's a subjective thing, but still, it's a reasonable thing to ask and the common guy's determination is a decent evaluation. If so, then, your engine is well balanced (unless the prop JUST HAPPENS to correct a problem). So if you REALLY want to be sure, run the engine. Remove the prop, move it one bolt hole and repeat. Do this six times and see if there's really any noticeable difference. If not, you can say with reasonable conviction, your engine is well balanced. Now, make sure your wood prop is properly statically balanced. Put it on your engine and run it. Is it smooth? If not, the problem HAS to be in the mounting of the prop. Dynamic balancing can correct this problem. However, you could do like before, try the prop in all six possible locations and see if the problem goes away or gets better enough (EVERYTHING that rotates vibrates, it's really a matter of it being smooth enough for the application). If so, you've empirically balanced the thing yourself, using guestimates just like balancing a ceiling fan. There may also be the problem of the prop being in the right location for hand propping. If it does vibrate, like I said, the problem is in the mounting. Or the prop was statically balanced about a center of rotation DIFFERENT than the center of rotation your prop sees on your engine. So... If we're talking about, say, a Cont A65 with a taper shaft, static balance the prop with the hub in place and you'll likely solve your problems. If you don't have a removable hub, you just REALLY REALLY need to be anal about static balancing with a WELL FITTING dummy hub to make sure you're balancing about the correct center of rotation. Does this make sense? If your prop fits loosely on your hub, you HAVE to dynamically balance... or remanufacture the hub on the prop to where it does fit will and repeatably, giving you a chance at proper static balancing. This is a weird area. I went to Oshkosh's dynamic balancing workshop a couple years ago. The guys GIVING the seminar, were equipment salesmen who really didn't understand dynamic balancing, which shocked me. Shoot away with any questions, I'll do my best to explain more if necessary! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406700#406700 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dynamic balancing ? From: Ken Bickers Tool, great explanation. Thanks, Ken On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 8:47 AM, tools wrote: > > In the case of a propeller, dynamic balancing is more effective than > static balancing when it's installed where it's going to be used. > > In other words, there is NO advantage taking the prop somewhere and asking > them to dynamically balance it and return it. It has to be installed on > YOUR plane. And if you ever remove it, you've lost that advantage, it > would have to be done again (unless CAREFULLY reinstalled EXACTLY like it > was... never a certainty). > > The reason for this is a propeller is not thick, compared to it's > diameter, it's a "single plane" balancing problem. Careful static > balancing (where you hang it and determine the heavy blade and either > remove a bit, or add some varnish to the other blade) is completely > effective. > > A crankshaft, on the other hand, is long compared to it's diameter and > NEEDS to be dynamically balanced. It can be perfectly statically balanced > but still be so out of balance the engine won't even run... Static > balancing cannot detect multi plane problems. > > So, do you need dynamic balancing? First, lets say with a known good > propeller (and metal for it's repeatability) does your engine run smoothly? > It's a subjective thing, but still, it's a reasonable thing to ask and the > common guy's determination is a decent evaluation. If so, then, your > engine is well balanced (unless the prop JUST HAPPENS to correct a > problem). So if you REALLY want to be sure, run the engine. Remove the > prop, move it one bolt hole and repeat. Do this six times and see if > there's really any noticeable difference. If not, you can say with > reasonable conviction, your engine is well balanced. > > Now, make sure your wood prop is properly statically balanced. Put it on > your engine and run it. Is it smooth? If not, the problem HAS to be in > the mounting of the prop. Dynamic balancing can correct this problem. > However, you could do like before, try the prop in all six possible > locations and see if the problem goes away or gets better enough > (EVERYTHING that rotates vibrates, it's really a matter of it being smooth > enough for the application). If so, you've empirically balanced the thing > yourself, using guestimates just like balancing a ceiling fan. There may > also be the problem of the prop being in the right location for hand > propping. > > If it does vibrate, like I said, the problem is in the mounting. Or the > prop was statically balanced about a center of rotation DIFFERENT than the > center of rotation your prop sees on your engine. So... > > If we're talking about, say, a Cont A65 with a taper shaft, static balance > the prop with the hub in place and you'll likely solve your problems. > > If you don't have a removable hub, you just REALLY REALLY need to be anal > about static balancing with a WELL FITTING dummy hub to make sure you're > balancing about the correct center of rotation. Does this make sense? > > If your prop fits loosely on your hub, you HAVE to dynamically balance... > or remanufacture the hub on the prop to where it does fit will and > repeatably, giving you a chance at proper static balancing. > > This is a weird area. I went to Oshkosh's dynamic balancing workshop a > couple years ago. The guys GIVING the seminar, were equipment salesmen who > really didn't understand dynamic balancing, which shocked me. Shoot away > with any questions, I'll do my best to explain more if necessary! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406700#406700 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: NC Piet NX327BC From: randy cary Thanks for the info! I will call if I get any farther. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2013, at 9:49 AM, "Jerry Dotson" wrote: > > I know very little. A guy named Jack (last name escapes me) from around the Orlando area owned it some years ago. It was hangared at X61. My friend has his J3 there. The airplane has some damage history.......a landing accident at Thomasville, Ga fly-in a couple or 3 years back. I could find the previous owner last name if need be. > > -------- > Jerry Dotson > > First flight June 16,2012 > Flying in phase 2 > Lycoming O-235 C2C > Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 > do not archive > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406693#406693 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:35 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dynamic balancing ? Great intell. Tools...and the timing could not be better with this post!- I will be fabricating my prop. balancer soon and starting the varnish proc ess. A point you made that I didn't think of was to static balance with the tapered hub on the prop.- Is there any worthy benefit of also installing the bolts, washers, nuts on the prop./hub while doing the static balance? Of course each would need to be reinstalled on the plane is the exact same fashion.=0A=0A=0A-=0AMichael Perez=0APietenpol HINT Videos=0AKaretaker Ae ro=0Awww.karetakeraero.com=0A=0A=0A=0A> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:52 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dynamic balancing ? Oh and don't forget the crush plate...=0A=0A=0A-=0AMichael Perez=0APieten pol HINT Videos=0AKaretaker Aero=0Awww.karetakeraero.com=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:05 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Upcoming Corvair Colleges From: "bdewenter" Kevin is 100% correct. I would just like to encourage ANYONE building a Piet to attend a Corvair College. No matter which engine you are planning on you will learn a TON about flight engines, meet a lot of nice folks, and perhaps score a ride in a Piet. I attended #19, #20 and #21 as a builder #24 as a helper and will do so again for #27 in Barnwell. I'm thinking about attending #28 in Texas. -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406713#406713 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Air Force Museum From: Steve Emo It depends on what you want. I work on the base and know people that work i n the museum restoration shop. What do you want? Steve On Aug 14, 2013, at 8:02 AM, "Douwe Blumberg" w rote: > Hey, > > Does anyone have a contact at the Dayton/Wright Patterson Air Force Museum ? > > Douwe > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dynamic balancing ? From: "tools" Ya, the more parts that are going to be used, the better. Once it's all together, you need as nice a fit for a dummy shaft as you can find. It's probably worth considering making some dummy shafts and then passing them around for folks like engine mount jigs, wing rib jigs, etc. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406724#406724 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:20 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Off Topic -- Ohio Flyers -- Help From: "dgaldrich" Thanks for all your inputs. I'm back in Maine safely and the Dakota Hawk is in its new home. The trip around ORD and east over Elser was uneventful. Stopped for fuel at Fulton Co, NY (NY0) and chatted with the guys at the 195 Factory who maintain and restore some beautiful Cessna 195's. I hope the drool in my shirt dries out soon. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=406729#406729 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:04 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: ford oil pressure I may have missed it=2C but did anyone ever comment or respond to 'bender's question about oil pressure and how the oil passages and tubes all feed th e Ford engine? As a mechanical engineer I'm interested in this because one of the articles in the upcoming all-Piet issue of Contact! will focus on t he most classic of Piet powerplants=2C the Ford "A" engine=2C and its conve rsion. So far=2C what I have gathered is that the formula for success with it is "start with one part cast iron=2C add some Babbitt=2C mix some water with a touch of steam and pour it in through a rubber hose=2C add four sho rt stacks=2C give it a quick blue spark=2C swing a dead chicken by its neck =2C and spin the prop". Seriously=2C the oiling system seems to me to be (from Mr. Pietenpol's conv ersion plans for the Ford engine) one of the biggest differences between th e land and air applications. The other two are=2C of course=2C the ignitio n (magneto) and the output (propeller hub). "bender" seems to have problem s with too much oil finding its way to one spot=2C thus diverting it from o ther spots where it is needed as well. Is this common in the Ford=2C or do es "bender" perhaps have excessive clearance in one of the oiling paths and it's shunting the flow? Oscar Zuniga Medford=2C OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power (NO water involved!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.