Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Fri 08/23/13


Total Messages Posted: 23



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:55 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Propeller Pictures  (Michael Perez)
     2. 04:05 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Propeller Pictures  (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
     3. 04:45 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Propeller Pictures  (Jack Phillips)
     4. 05:00 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Propeller Pictures  (Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB)
     5. 05:00 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Propeller Pictures  (Michael Perez)
     6. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: NX626E (Mario Giacummo)
     7. 05:32 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Fw: Propeller Pictures  (Michael Perez)
     8. 05:36 AM - Re: Re: NX626E (Michael Perez)
     9. 05:49 AM - Bill Sayre's First Flight NX626E (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
    10. 06:27 AM - Re: NX626E (TOM STINEMETZE)
    11. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff) (Chuck Campbell)
    12. 09:02 AM - Re: Covering systems (Chuck Campbell)
    13. 09:27 AM - Re: NX626E (aerocarjake)
    14. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: NX626E (Ray Krause)
    15. 11:10 AM - Re: NX626E (echobravo4)
    16. 11:33 AM - Re: Bill Sayre's First Flight NX626E (BYD)
    17. 11:59 AM - Re: NX626E (BYD)
    18. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: swing out motor mount (shad bell)
    19. 12:17 PM - Re: swing out motor mount (shad bell)
    20. 12:20 PM - Re: NX626E (AircamperN11MS)
    21. 12:43 PM - Fw: Re: Fw: Propeller Pictures (Billy McCaskill)
    22. 02:17 PM - Re: NX626E (BYD)
    23. 02:26 PM - Re: Re: NX626E (Claude Corbett)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:55:30 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures
    Steve, thank you and Dave for the intell. below. I always like to get multi ple inputs on matters that I am not sure of one way or another. (The mixing of covering products/techniques is another good thread...) I know here at work we, (not myself personally) have done some work with boundary layers a nd their advantage to flying surfaces, so what I am hearing seems to ring t rue.=0A=0AI am finished with my propeller, I applied the last coat of varni sh yesterday. I did, in fact, leave it as shipped. As Dave mentioned, I fig ured worst case, I could sand it all down smooth as glass later if needed.. .sounds like I won't.=0A=0AAs some of you may know, I also was not concerne d with the "glass" like finish on the entire AC; the whole thing is painted by brush.- Perhaps that slightly "textured" surface will actually help p erformance on some small scale...=0A=0ANext up is the dimple tape all aroun d all of the exposed round tube and maybe the LE of the streamline tube.- (I kid...)=0A=0AThanks again.=0A=0A=0A-=0AMichael Perez=0APietenpol HINT Videos=0AKaretaker Aero=0Awww.karetakeraero.com=0A=0A=0A=0A>______________ __________________=0A>=0A>- =0A>> G'day Steve,=0A>> =0A>> Leave the scall ops. The experimental evidence (?) suggests that the propeller=0A>> is more efficient with the scallops. The likely reason is that the scallops=0A>> t ransition the boundary layer from laminar to turbulent. The turbulent bound ary=0A>> layer then stays attached longer which results in more lift (thrus t).=0A>> =0A>> A propeller is nothing more than a wing spinning in a circle . I suspect that=0A>> the Reynolds number is quite low, hence the turbulent boundary layer is better.=0A>> =0A>> There is a direct analogy with some t owing tank studies done on a small sailboat=0A>> rudder. The drag on the ru dder was actually lower with a slightly rough finish, than with=0A>> an ult ra smooth finish for the same reason.=0A>> =0A>> On the other hand, if you don't like the results you can always strip it, sand it=0A>> and refinish i t. It is harder to do the reverse <G>.=0A>> =0A>> Dave Rogers=0A>> =0A>> On 8/22/2013 6:42 PM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB wrote:=0A>> >UNCLASSIF IED Dr. Dave, As you know I am finishing the restoration on a Pietenpol Air camper.=0A>> >A gentleman on the Pietenpol list posted this with the attac hed photos. The question is "Do=0A>> >the scallops help or hurt the prop ef ficiency? " I told him I would ask you as a recognized=0A>> >aerodynamics e xpert.=0A>=0A>


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:05:44 AM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures
    UNCLASSIFIED Did anyone else get it? It comes back to me complete. On 08/23/13, Billy McCaskill wrote: > > Still nothing, Steve. > > -------- > Billy McCaskill > Baker, LA > tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407311#407311 > > > > > > > UNCLASSIFIED


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:45:15 AM PST US
    From: "Jack Phillips" <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures
    I got it, and it made perfect sense. It's the same principle as putting dimples on golf balls to make the boundary layer transition from Laminar to Turbulent flow. It used to be that all golf balls were smooth, but some golfers discovered that an old, cut up ball with dings and gouges would travel further than a new smooth ball. Wind tunnel testing confirmed it and the manufacturers starting putting dimples on golf balls. Check out: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/sports/golf/basics/question37.htm Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 7:05 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil> UNCLASSIFIED Did anyone else get it? It comes back to me complete. On 08/23/13, Billy McCaskill wrote: > > Still nothing, Steve. > > -------- > Billy McCaskill > Baker, LA > tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407311#407311 > > > > > > > UNCLASSIFIED


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:00:38 AM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures
    UNCLASSIFIED Micheal, sounds like your plane will be a speed demon. Are ready to compete in the low and really slow experimental division at Reno? Perhaps you should step up to unlimited! ;+} Blue Skies, Steve D On 08/23/13, Michael Perez wrote: > > > > Steve, thank you and Dave for the intell. below. I always like to get multiple inputs on matters that I am not sure of one way or another. (The mixing of covering products/techniques is another good thread...) I know here at work we, (not myself personally) have done some work with boundary layers and their advantage to flying surfaces, so what I am hearing seems to ring true. > > I am finished with my propeller, I applied the last coat of varnish yesterday. I did, in fact, leave it as shipped. As Dave mentioned, I figured worst case, I could sand it all down smooth as glass later if needed...sounds like I won't. > > As some of you may know, I also was not concerned with the "glass" like finish on the entire AC; the whole thing is painted by brush. Perhaps that slightly "textured" surface will actually help performance on some small scale... > > Next up is the dimple tape all around all of the exposed round tube and maybe the LE of the streamline tube. (I kid...) > > Thanks again. > > > > Michael Perez > Pietenpol HINT Videos > Karetaker Aero > www.karetakeraero.com > > > > > > > > > G'day Steve, > > > > > > Leave the scallops. The experimental evidence (?) suggests that the propeller > > > is more efficient with the scallops. The likely reason is that the scallops > > > transition the boundary layer from laminar to turbulent. The turbulent boundary > > > layer then stays attached longer which results in more lift (thrust). > > > > > > A propeller is nothing more than a wing spinning in a circle. I suspect that > > > the Reynolds number is quite low, hence the turbulent boundary layer is better. > > > > > > There is a direct analogy with some towing tank studies done on a small sailboat > > > rudder. The drag on the rudder was actually lower with a slightly rough finish, than with > > > an ultra smooth finish for the same reason. > > > > > > On the other hand, if you don't like the results you can always strip it, sand it > > > and refinish it. It is harder to do the reverse <G>. > > > > > > Dave Rogers > > > > > > On 8/22/2013 6:42 PM, Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB wrote: > > > >UNCLASSIFIED Dr. Dave, As you know I am finishing the restoration on a Pietenpol Air camper. > > > >A gentleman on the Pietenpol list posted this with the attached photos. The question is "Do > > > >the scallops help or hurt the prop efficiency? " I told him I would ask you as a recognized > > > >aerodynamics expert. > > > > > > > > > > > > > UNCLASSIFIED


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:00:46 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures
    I received the reply via. email. It appears that it is not going through th e web list, so I kept it on the bottom of my reply back. That reply, with t he intel. from Dave, are on the web list now.=0A=0A=0A-=0AMichael Perez =0APietenpol HINT Videos=0AKaretaker Aero=0Awww.karetakeraero.com=0A=0A=0A =0A>________________________________=0A> From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL US A NGB" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>=0A>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 7:05 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: F wd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures =0A> =0A>=0A>--> Pietenpol-List message pos ted by: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ MIL USA NGB" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>=0A >=0A>UNCLASSIFIED=0A>Did anyone else get it? It comes back to me complete. =0A>=0A>On 08/23/13, Billy McCaskill- wrote:=0A>> --> Pietenpol-List mess age posted by: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>=0A>> =0A>> Still nothing, Steve.=0A>> =0A>> --------=0A>> Billy McCaskill=0A>> Baker, LA=0A>> tail s ection almost done, starting on ribs soon=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> Read this topic online here:=0A>> =0A>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.p hp?p=407311#407311=0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>> =0A>UNCLASSIF ====0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:18:05 AM PST US
    From: Mario Giacummo <mario.giacummo@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    Muy bueeeno!!! Felicitaciones!!! Mario Giacummo 2013/8/22 BYD <billsayre@ymail.com> > > Just to prove I=92m not a four flusher ' here=92s the photographic proo f I > said would be coming.... > > http://youtu.be/0y4PnKwikvM > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407283#407283 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:32:53 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures
    Yeah, I think with all of my "improvements" I may be able to keep pace with migrating birds.- =0A=0A=0A-=0AMichael Perez=0APietenpol HINT Videos =0AKaretaker Aero=0Awww.karetakeraero.com=0A=0Ado not archive


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:36:02 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    Congratulations Bill!- Very nice plane and video. Go Pro I am guessing? =0A=0AMichael Perez=0A=0APietenpol HINT Videos=0AKaretaker Aero=0Awww.karet akeraero.com


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:49:42 AM PST US
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
    Subject: Bill Sayre's First Flight NX626E
    Fantastic video Bill and what a smooth touch you have on the stick. Your Stinson 108 and Boredom Fighter flying hours showed up clearly on your video. I like how you touched down and af ter you decelerated you lifted up in your seat and let out a big exhale. Many of us know that feel so well! I still get that on gusty crosswind days after landing and seeing that the whole plane is still intact. Great job, beaut iful plane, and now let the real fun begin. PS-why didn't you wait for a gusty, windy, lousy day for your first flight like so many seem to do? You picked a picture-perfect weather slot! Uncle Tony would be super-proud of you! Mike C. PSS-did you powder your beard just to make you look more experienced? :)


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:27:59 AM PST US
    From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS@mcpcity.com>
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    Way to go Bill. First flight over water yet. You 'da man! Stinemetze


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:01:51 AM PST US
    From: Chuck Campbell <cncampbell@outlook.com>
    Subject: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff)
    Considering R.R's comments=2C I have a comment. I have been flying since 1 942. have somewhere in the neighbor hood of 10=2C000 hours in Military and General Aviation aircraft. Have been into a bunch of airports -- large and small -- have been tied down on a bunch of flight lines -- and=2C get this =2C I HAVE NEVER BEEN RAMP CHECKED. I'm sure all the GA aircraft I flew we re properly certificated=2C but the FAA didn't know that. I agree with R. R. -- we don't need the FAA with all their stupid regulations that don't me an anything. If I ever get ramp checked I might change my mind. C PS. I think I will finish my Piet and go fly it without bothering with all the unnecessary paper work. I DIDN'T SAY I WAS GOING TO DO THAT -- JUST T HAT I'M THINKING ABOUT IT. > Date: Thu=2C 22 Aug 2013 12:56:28 -0400 > From: r.r.hall@cox.net > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: being found (OT about getting away with stuff) > > > Guys=2C > > The enforcement of all FAA rules is pretty hit and miss in the small plan e arens I think. When I bought my one off homebuilt from the original build er he told me the whole story of how he built it out of wood based on a pop ular metal plane of the time including a V tail but the mixing control was maladjusted on his first flight and he crashed. The plane was rebuilt with a bigger engine and standard tail form and flown for many years afterward. What I didn't realize was that the original Op Lims stated that "any major changes invalidate the airworthiness certificate". Being as it was subject to two major changes the AW cert was totally invalid and had been for the m any years it flew. When I discovered this I decided to get it straightened out. As a result I spent several months corresponding with the FAA=2C DAR and DER but finally obtained a new airworthiness certificate and am in the process of flying off the 40 hours of Phase 1 (if the stupid weather would ever cooperate). ! > My point is=2C if someone can fly an airplane for 20 years with an inval id airworthiness cert. what else are people getting away with on a daily ba sis? Whatever they are "getting away with" it surely doesn't seem to impact GA safety too much and kinda makes me question the whole need for all this bureaucracy. 3rd class medical is a perfect example. Lots of people are fl ying without medicals yet the accident rate hasn't gone through the roof. I n my opinion you should only need a medical if you are flying commercially i.e. someone is paying you. That is just one example=2C all these ADs and m andatory ADSB would be another. Is it really going to enhance safety? How m any GA midair collisions were there last year? > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:02:42 AM PST US
    From: Chuck Campbell <cncampbell@outlook.com>
    Subject: Covering systems
    Who would know? Chuck > Date: Thu=2C 22 Aug 2013 11:48:22 -0500 > From: jbfjr@peoplepc.com > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Covering systems > > > Pietsters=2C > > Is it legal (??..perhaps the wrong term) to cover parts of the plane=2C s ay the wings and tail surfaces=2C with the Polyfiber system and then cover the fuselage with the Stewart system? Seems like I remember reading somewh ere that you can't mix systems on the same plane. > > Thanks=2C > John Franklin > Prairie Aire 4TA0 > Needville=2C TX > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 09:27:41 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    From: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake@gmail.com>
    Way to go Bill - great inspiration....!!!! Bernard would be very pleased. THANKS for posting the video.................................. Jake -------- Jake Schultz - curator, Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407360#407360


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:53:17 AM PST US
    From: Ray Krause <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    Way too cool! That was quite an adventurous flight for the FIRST FLIGHT! You are an inspiration. Thanks, Ray Krause SkyScout in progress Sent from my iPad On Aug 22, 2013, at 5:18 PM, "BYD" <billsayre@ymail.com> wrote: > > Just to prove Im not a four flusher heres the photographic proof I said would be coming.... > > http://youtu.be/0y4PnKwikvM > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407283#407283 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:10:27 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    From: "echobravo4" <eab4@comcast.net>
    Very cool! Congratulations Bill, very nice job -------- Earl Brown I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407370#407370


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:33:39 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Bill Sayre's First Flight NX626E
    From: "BYD" <billsayre@ymail.com>
    My beard was a darker shade when I started this project!!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407373#407373


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:59:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    From: "BYD" <billsayre@ymail.com>
    AircamperN11MS wrote: > Can I copy your parking brake system or do you have a patent on it? I could pay you a royalty. It has been suggested that I draw up plans for that system, but I just can't seem to find the time. If you can figure out the complexities, you welcome to use it - just be advised that there are no warranties and you assume all liabilities. Bill Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407375#407375


    Message 18


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    Time: 12:13:34 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: swing out motor mount
    It has a little bit of arc from the front back.=0A-=0AShad=0A =0A=0A_____ ___________________________=0A From: nightmare <pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com> =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:37 PM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: swing out motor mount=0A =0A=0A--> Piet enpol-List message posted by: "nightmare" <pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com>=0A =0AThanks guys: ill have to do a little more research. Plan on putting one of Dan Weissman's rear mount alternators on. I guess ill ask him what he th inks.=0A- Shad, really like the turtle deck on that jungster. Is that a slight arc in its profile, or straight line? Paul=0A=0A--------=0APaul Dona hue=0AStarted 8-3-12=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407233#407233=0A ========================


    Message 19


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    Time: 12:17:37 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: swing out motor mount
    The only real difference of the swing out mount would be running the engine mount bolts at the firewall vert instead of horizontally.- The also woul d need to be "perfectly" lined up from top to lower fitting so the hinge li ne was straight.- Also the eccentric load of the engine hanging off one s ide of the airplane may -need to be considered, but not sure it would hur t anything.=0A-=0AShad=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0AS ent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 11:59 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: swin the" <gboothe5@comcast.net>=0A=0APaul,=0A=0AMy mount is 2" longer than norm al, and allows enough (note: I did not say=0A'plenty') room for working. As ide from possibly making it a bit easier and=0Acleaner to remove the oil fi lter, I cannot see any advantage, but several=0Aconcerns would be added (en gineering for strength with no vibration,=0Amaintenance and inspection of t he hinges, etc...). I have had to replace an=0Aoil pressure spring, and tig hten and re-safety the oil pan bolts (I should=0Asay that Curt Merdan did t he re-safetying...come to think of it...he hasn't=0Abeen back since...), al l of which are doable despite the tight quarters...=0A=0ABut everyone's lay out is different. I have no remote oil cooler or filter,=0Aas some do. To d o maintenance on those may require disconnections for a=0Aswing out mount t hat you would normally not have to do.=0A=0AGary Boothe=0ANX308MB=0A=0A=0A- ----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nightmar e=0ASent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 8:40 AM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics. com=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: swing out motor mount=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-Lis t message posted by: "nightmare" =0A--> <pauldonahuepilot@yahoo.com>=0A=0Aw as wondering if anyone has experience with the swing out (hinges on one=0As ide) motor mount. I realize probably not done on a wood fuselage piet, but =0Aim sure you guys have owned or do own many different birds.=0A- Im fa bricating a steel tube fuselage and just a hair more work and weight=0Ato f abricate a swing out mount for my corvair / steel tube combo. any=0Arecomme ndations? is it worth doing? Thanks; Paul=0A=0A--------=0APaul Donahue=0ASt arted 8-3-12=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407214#407214=0A=0A=0A=0A =


    Message 20


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    Time: 12:20:42 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
    Thanks Bill. I'll give it a try this weekend. Hope it doesn't throw off my W&B. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407378#407378


    Message 21


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    Time: 12:43:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Propeller Pictures
    From: "Billy McCaskill" <billmz@cox.net>
    The explanation showed up in the email digest this morning, but wasn't showing up on the forum. Odd. -------- Billy McCaskill Baker, LA tail section almost done, starting on ribs soon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407380#407380


    Message 22


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    Time: 02:17:17 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    From: "BYD" <billsayre@ymail.com>
    > "speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.n"] > Congratulations Bill! Very nice plane and video. Go Pro I am guessing? > > Michael Perez Drift Innovation HD720 Has built in screen (for aiming/setting up) and rotatable lens so if the camera is at an angle you can still get a level shot. Well under $100 new in box at Amazon. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=407388#407388


    Message 23


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    Time: 02:26:43 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: NX626E
    From: Claude Corbett <isablcorky@aol.com>
    Sent from my iPad On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:58 PM, "BYD" <billsayre@ymail.com> wrote: > > >




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