---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/09/13: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Steven Dortch) 2. 04:29 AM - Re: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Marcus Zechini) 3. 05:13 AM - Corvair College 27, Nov 8 - 10, Barnwell, SC (kevinpurtee) 4. 05:55 AM - Re: Re: One bladed propeller (Steven Dortch) 5. 06:23 AM - Re: One bladed propeller (Baldeagle) 6. 07:38 AM - Re: Engine out.. again (bender) 7. 08:29 AM - Re: Felix For Sale (TriScout) 8. 09:46 AM - Re: Engine out.. again (taildrags) 9. 12:17 PM - Re: steel tube fuselage tacked (nightmare) 10. 01:05 PM - Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Fun2av8) 11. 02:57 PM - Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Catdesigns) 12. 04:23 PM - Re: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Gary Boothe) 13. 07:02 PM - webinar (Steven Dortch) 14. 07:32 PM - Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Fun2av8) 15. 07:36 PM - Progress report (Rick) 16. 07:51 PM - Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Fun2av8) 17. 08:00 PM - Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB (Fun2av8) 18. 09:41 PM - Re: steel tube fuselage tacked (taildrags) 19. 09:47 PM - Re: webinar (taildrags) 20. 09:58 PM - Re: Progress report (taildrags) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: Steven Dortch Y'all might check with your local EAA chapter. Chapter 35 has a calibrated set of scaled used only for weight and balance on aircraft. For $25 you get to use the scales, AND the guy who manages them for the club is the best asset. He has done this many times and will walk you through this. Blue Skies, Steve D On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:03 PM, taildrags wrote: > > Jim; > > Do you keep your plane in a hangar? If so, this can be pretty easy and > you won't be in any hurry to get it done. Since the airplane is flying, > you don't have to worry about getting it done any certain time and you can > do it in two sessions. You could probably do it all yourself, but it's far > easier with two people. In one session you'll be measuring things and in > the second session you'll be weighing the airplane. > > Get some tape (painter's tape is fine and it comes off your hangar floor > easily, but anything else will do), plus a length of nice strong twine and > a plumb bob or anything heavy that you can tie to the end of the twine. A > point on the end of it just helps you get closer on your measurements but > it can be a big lag bolt or anything similar if you don't have a plumb bob. > Get a Sharpie to mark on the tape, plus a piece of paper and pencil to > write down your measurements. Then get a steel measuring tape that's at > least 20 or 25 ft. long and you're ready. > > With the airplane out of the hangar (or in it... doesn't matter but it's > easier to do if you don't have to crawl around under the airplane), lay a > straight stripe of tape on the floor, in line with the nose and tail of the > airplane and close to where you usually park the airplane and you know the > wings and tail will clear everything. Next, lay a second stripe of tape > across the first to form a cross, and try to get it so it falls more or > less where your tires will sit when you roll the plane in to line up with > the first stripe. Before you roll the plane in though, check to make sure > the second stripe is at right angles to the first. You can do this a > number of ways but you have twine and a measuring tape, so you can always > just pick a number (like 4 ft.) and make a mark on each tape stripe that > distance away from where they cross. Then measure the distances diagonally > between the marks to make sure they are the same. Pick up the cross tape > and adjust it if need be to ge! > t it square to the other stripe. > > Now roll the airplane in, lining it up on the long stripe. Guide the > tailwheel down the stripe till the mains roll right onto the cross stripe. > You may need to roll it back and forth a bit till the tailwheel is on the > stripe and a plumb line dropped from the propeller hub drops right onto the > tape. If the main axles are also right over the cross stripe, chock the > mains and you're ready to start measuring. There are a lot of interesting > measurements that you can take with this setup that don't have much to do > with weight and balance, but they can be useful at other times. I won't > worry with those now. > > You'll need a sawhorse or ladder, or you could also use a rope or hoist > slung from your hangar roof, but you've got to raise the tail till the > fuselage is in the straight and level position. A rope and pulley could be > the best way to do this, but blocking up the tail with boxes or a sawhorse > can do it too, as long as you can get the fuselage level and steady, and as > long as you can drop a plumb line from the center of the tailwheel to the > floor. Setting the tailwheel up on a stand won't usually let you do this. > And watch it when you're raising the tail, since some aircraft get a > little light on the tail in the level attitude, and can go on their nose if > you overshoot. Get an accurate level and put it on the straightest section > of fuselage longeron that you have easy access to. Usually that will be > right inside the rear cockpit, the top longerons. A bubble level will do, > but if you have one of those "angle finder" gizmos or a digital level, > that's best. If you do it ca! > refully and slowly, you'll only ever have to do this once. > > Airplane is level. Axles are directly over the cross tape, nose and > tailwheel are directly over the longitudinal tape. Wheels are chocked. > > Now it's just a matter of taking your plumb line and measuring tape and > getting the important measurements. The biggie is that leading edge, since > it's your datum. Pick a side of the airplane that you want to work on and > you can take all the measurements on that side. It doesn't matter which. > Let the plumb line drape over the wing so the plumb bob goes down to the > floor from the leading edge. Let the plumb bob stop swinging, then put > down a piece of tape with a nice clear mark right where the plumb bob > points. Now you can measure anything you want or need. Drop a line from > the face of the firewall and measure aft to the leading edge. Measure from > the leading edge mark back to the line that the landing gear make. Drop > your plumb line from the center of the tailwheel and measure from the > landing gear tape back to where the tailwheel plumb bob drops. And, as > long as you've got everything set up, you can measure from the face of the > prop hub to the firewall, you can m! > easure the track (distance between contact patches of the two mains, you > can measure from the firewall to the tailpost to determine which of the > various Air Camper fuselage lengths you have, you can put your angle finder > on the wing cabanes and determine if they are inclined and if so, by how > much (usually measured at the top where the cabanes attach to the underside > of the wing, and measured in inches aft of vertical). > > With these measurements, you can determine all the other moment arms once > you do the weighing because you have determined the locations of the three > weighing points and their positions relative to the leading edge, which is > the datum. All of the laying out and measuring can be done in about an > hour, if you have help and have the few simple tools that are needed. > > The weighing is next, and you could move right on to it if you have the > scales available. With some prior planning, you could also do the whole > thing in one process by setting the airplane up on the scales and doing the > weighing and measuring all at one shot. Let's say you're doing it in two > phases, so now the tape and marks are all off your hangar floor and you're > not measuring anything this time... only reading scales. > > You'll want to pick a day when it's not too windy. You'd be surprised > what even a breeze or gust will do to the reading on a digital scale when > it flows around an airplane. So, get the best scales you have available > but even if you decide to go with digital bathroom scales, at least make > the two that you use on the mains identical. they have to go up to at > least about 400 pounds. The one for the tailwheel can be smaller, but if > all three are identical, even better. I used digital electronic race car > scales for weighing my airplane, but Mr. Pietenpol very likely didn't have > any of those and his airplanes flew just fine. > > Roll the mains onto two of the scales using ramps. Easier with two > people. Raise the tail to the level position again, but this time you can > use a small table, tool chest, or other stable platform to put the > tailwheel right on the scale with the fuselage leveled using your angle > finder or level to get it nice and level. In the best case, you will have > drained all fuel out of the airplane so you get an empty weight. You can > fool with draining the gascolator, but it's not a big deal. I would weigh > it with the normal operating level of oil in the engine and make note of > that. Make sure you've taken handheld radio, water bottle, knee board, > headsets, spare parts and tools, fuzzy dice, and any other loose items out > of the cockpits and stowage areas. Remember, it's "basic EMPTY weight". > > Read the scales and record the weights. Left main, right main, tailwheel. > Those are important numbers and they should be something like in the 300s > for the mains and less than 30 for the tail. > > Now to determine the moment arms for fuel, passenger, and pilot. I'll > describe the situation for a fuel tank in the nose. With the airplane > still level and on the scales, take a KNOWN quantity of fuel, something > reasonable like 5 or 6 gallons, and pour all of it into the fuel tank. > Replace the tank cap. Read all three scales again and write down the > numbers. Later, you can go back and reverse-calculate the fuel moment arms > by knowing those three weights and the amount of weight of fuel that you > added. You will then know the fuel moment arm, which should never change > unless you make changes in the tank location. > > To determine the passenger and pilot moment arms, find a volunteer and get > their weight. Don't let them guess at their weight... have them weigh > themselves either before you use the scales for the plane weighing, or on > another set of scales. Have them climb into each cockpit slowly and > carefully, make sure nothing moves on the scales, and record the weights in > both configurations. Again, later on you can reverse-calculate the moment > arm distances for passenger and pilot if you know what the person's weight > was and what the new readings are on your scales. > > You're done in the hangar. Probably another hour to do the weighing, but > if you did it carefully and remembered to record all the numbers, you'll > never have to do it again. You can do all of the above on a rainy or > wintry day when you don't have anything else to do, and of course you can > work out the formulas and W&B diagrams later on when you're at home and > comfortable. > > That should do it. No mystery vertical lines, and everything you have > will be useful at one time or another. I probably missed something along > the line, but I'm sure someone will chime in if I have. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410118#410118 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: Marcus Zechini Jim, EAA 186 has scales. I want to borrow, too. Zeke On Oct 9, 2013 7:04 AM, "Steven Dortch" wrote: > Y'all might check with your local EAA chapter. Chapter 35 has a calibrated > set of scaled used only for weight and balance on aircraft. For $25 you get > to use the scales, AND the guy who manages them for the club is the best > asset. He has done this many times and will walk you through this. > > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > > On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:03 PM, taildrags wrote: > >> >> Jim; >> >> Do you keep your plane in a hangar? If so, this can be pretty easy and >> you won't be in any hurry to get it done. Since the airplane is flying, >> you don't have to worry about getting it done any certain time and you can >> do it in two sessions. You could probably do it all yourself, but it's far >> easier with two people. In one session you'll be measuring things and in >> the second session you'll be weighing the airplane. >> >> Get some tape (painter's tape is fine and it comes off your hangar floor >> easily, but anything else will do), plus a length of nice strong twine and >> a plumb bob or anything heavy that you can tie to the end of the twine. A >> point on the end of it just helps you get closer on your measurements but >> it can be a big lag bolt or anything similar if you don't have a plumb bob. >> Get a Sharpie to mark on the tape, plus a piece of paper and pencil to >> write down your measurements. Then get a steel measuring tape that's at >> least 20 or 25 ft. long and you're ready. >> >> With the airplane out of the hangar (or in it... doesn't matter but it's >> easier to do if you don't have to crawl around under the airplane), lay a >> straight stripe of tape on the floor, in line with the nose and tail of the >> airplane and close to where you usually park the airplane and you know the >> wings and tail will clear everything. Next, lay a second stripe of tape >> across the first to form a cross, and try to get it so it falls more or >> less where your tires will sit when you roll the plane in to line up with >> the first stripe. Before you roll the plane in though, check to make sure >> the second stripe is at right angles to the first. You can do this a >> number of ways but you have twine and a measuring tape, so you can always >> just pick a number (like 4 ft.) and make a mark on each tape stripe that >> distance away from where they cross. Then measure the distances diagonally >> between the marks to make sure they are the same. Pick up the cross tape >> and adjust it if need be to ge! >> t it square to the other stripe. >> >> Now roll the airplane in, lining it up on the long stripe. Guide the >> tailwheel down the stripe till the mains roll right onto the cross stripe. >> You may need to roll it back and forth a bit till the tailwheel is on the >> stripe and a plumb line dropped from the propeller hub drops right onto the >> tape. If the main axles are also right over the cross stripe, chock the >> mains and you're ready to start measuring. There are a lot of interesting >> measurements that you can take with this setup that don't have much to do >> with weight and balance, but they can be useful at other times. I won't >> worry with those now. >> >> You'll need a sawhorse or ladder, or you could also use a rope or hoist >> slung from your hangar roof, but you've got to raise the tail till the >> fuselage is in the straight and level position. A rope and pulley could be >> the best way to do this, but blocking up the tail with boxes or a sawhorse >> can do it too, as long as you can get the fuselage level and steady, and as >> long as you can drop a plumb line from the center of the tailwheel to the >> floor. Setting the tailwheel up on a stand won't usually let you do this. >> And watch it when you're raising the tail, since some aircraft get a >> little light on the tail in the level attitude, and can go on their nose if >> you overshoot. Get an accurate level and put it on the straightest section >> of fuselage longeron that you have easy access to. Usually that will be >> right inside the rear cockpit, the top longerons. A bubble level will do, >> but if you have one of those "angle finder" gizmos or a digital level, >> that's best. If you do it ca! >> refully and slowly, you'll only ever have to do this once. >> >> Airplane is level. Axles are directly over the cross tape, nose and >> tailwheel are directly over the longitudinal tape. Wheels are chocked. >> >> Now it's just a matter of taking your plumb line and measuring tape and >> getting the important measurements. The biggie is that leading edge, since >> it's your datum. Pick a side of the airplane that you want to work on and >> you can take all the measurements on that side. It doesn't matter which. >> Let the plumb line drape over the wing so the plumb bob goes down to the >> floor from the leading edge. Let the plumb bob stop swinging, then put >> down a piece of tape with a nice clear mark right where the plumb bob >> points. Now you can measure anything you want or need. Drop a line from >> the face of the firewall and measure aft to the leading edge. Measure from >> the leading edge mark back to the line that the landing gear make. Drop >> your plumb line from the center of the tailwheel and measure from the >> landing gear tape back to where the tailwheel plumb bob drops. And, as >> long as you've got everything set up, you can measure from the face of the >> prop hub to the firewall, you can m! >> easure the track (distance between contact patches of the two mains, you >> can measure from the firewall to the tailpost to determine which of the >> various Air Camper fuselage lengths you have, you can put your angle finder >> on the wing cabanes and determine if they are inclined and if so, by how >> much (usually measured at the top where the cabanes attach to the underside >> of the wing, and measured in inches aft of vertical). >> >> With these measurements, you can determine all the other moment arms once >> you do the weighing because you have determined the locations of the three >> weighing points and their positions relative to the leading edge, which is >> the datum. All of the laying out and measuring can be done in about an >> hour, if you have help and have the few simple tools that are needed. >> >> The weighing is next, and you could move right on to it if you have the >> scales available. With some prior planning, you could also do the whole >> thing in one process by setting the airplane up on the scales and doing the >> weighing and measuring all at one shot. Let's say you're doing it in two >> phases, so now the tape and marks are all off your hangar floor and you're >> not measuring anything this time... only reading scales. >> >> You'll want to pick a day when it's not too windy. You'd be surprised >> what even a breeze or gust will do to the reading on a digital scale when >> it flows around an airplane. So, get the best scales you have available >> but even if you decide to go with digital bathroom scales, at least make >> the two that you use on the mains identical. they have to go up to at >> least about 400 pounds. The one for the tailwheel can be smaller, but if >> all three are identical, even better. I used digital electronic race car >> scales for weighing my airplane, but Mr. Pietenpol very likely didn't have >> any of those and his airplanes flew just fine. >> >> Roll the mains onto two of the scales using ramps. Easier with two >> people. Raise the tail to the level position again, but this time you can >> use a small table, tool chest, or other stable platform to put the >> tailwheel right on the scale with the fuselage leveled using your angle >> finder or level to get it nice and level. In the best case, you will have >> drained all fuel out of the airplane so you get an empty weight. You can >> fool with draining the gascolator, but it's not a big deal. I would weigh >> it with the normal operating level of oil in the engine and make note of >> that. Make sure you've taken handheld radio, water bottle, knee board, >> headsets, spare parts and tools, fuzzy dice, and any other loose items out >> of the cockpits and stowage areas. Remember, it's "basic EMPTY weight". >> >> Read the scales and record the weights. Left main, right main, >> tailwheel. Those are important numbers and they should be something like >> in the 300s for the mains and less than 30 for the tail. >> >> Now to determine the moment arms for fuel, passenger, and pilot. I'll >> describe the situation for a fuel tank in the nose. With the airplane >> still level and on the scales, take a KNOWN quantity of fuel, something >> reasonable like 5 or 6 gallons, and pour all of it into the fuel tank. >> Replace the tank cap. Read all three scales again and write down the >> numbers. Later, you can go back and reverse-calculate the fuel moment arms >> by knowing those three weights and the amount of weight of fuel that you >> added. You will then know the fuel moment arm, which should never change >> unless you make changes in the tank location. >> >> To determine the passenger and pilot moment arms, find a volunteer and >> get their weight. Don't let them guess at their weight... have them weigh >> themselves either before you use the scales for the plane weighing, or on >> another set of scales. Have them climb into each cockpit slowly and >> carefully, make sure nothing moves on the scales, and record the weights in >> both configurations. Again, later on you can reverse-calculate the moment >> arm distances for passenger and pilot if you know what the person's weight >> was and what the new readings are on your scales. >> >> You're done in the hangar. Probably another hour to do the weighing, but >> if you did it carefully and remembered to record all the numbers, you'll >> never have to do it again. You can do all of the above on a rainy or >> wintry day when you don't have anything else to do, and of course you can >> work out the formulas and W&B diagrams later on when you're at home and >> comfortable. >> >> That should do it. No mystery vertical lines, and everything you have >> will be useful at one time or another. I probably missed something along >> the line, but I'm sure someone will chime in if I have. >> >> -------- >> Oscar Zuniga >> Medford, OR >> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" >> A75 power >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410118#410118 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:42 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair College 27, Nov 8 - 10, Barnwell, SC From: "kevinpurtee" Well worth attending. https://corvaircollege.wufoo.com/forms/corvair-college-27-registration/ -------- Kevin "Axel" Purtee Rebuilding NX899KP Austin/San Marcos, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410128#410128 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: One bladed propeller From: Steven Dortch Mike, You are partly correct. Everel (the prop maker) states that the centrifugal effect cancels out the bending moment and this blade not only moves but it also bends and that is where most of the bending moment occurs. (is this true of a more simple non pivoting blade?) The main reason that the Everel prop pivots is that it makes it an "automatic variable pitch type" prop. Basically when the aircraft is moving slower (TO and climb) the prop goes to fine pitch for max RPM. As the aircraft speeds up (cruise) the prop goes to coarse pitch for lower RPM and faster cruise. Here is a link that describes it very well. http://www.ultraligero.net/Cursos/varios/helice_de_una_pala.pdf IMHOBIKIAR The true efficiency of the Everel prop is in it's ability to "pivot", thus making it varaiable pitch. Some hombuilt fixed props claim to do the same with the materiels that they use. Basically the prop flexes based upon air load. These are made for the speedy homebuilts like the lancair and glassair. Would a two bladed prop be built where both blades could mechanically pivot like the Everel single blade? Blue Skies, Steve D On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Bkemike wrote: > Steve, > You're quite correct that a hard-mounted one-blade prop would put > significant bending moments into the shaft...shades of crank-snapping > Corvairs. > You may not have noticed in the video that the one-blade prop is free to > move fore and aft about an axis through the hub. This eliminates all the > bending moments that a hard-mounted one-blade would produce. > Mike Hardaway > > Scratched on an iPad with blunt instruments. > > > On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:08 AM, Steve Emo wrote: > > wouldn't a one bladed prop side load the crankshaft/bearing? Putting a > bending moment at the hub that isn't there with a two or more bladed > design. > > The trailing blades don't get the clean air the leading blade had. > > Steve > > On Oct 8, 2013, at 10:08 AM, Steven Dortch > wrote: > > WF2, Why was it not practical for everyday flying? > > Granted it is a more complex prop and would be more expensive to build. > It would require more thought to make sure it was installed correctly. > Once installed and setup, it has all the advantages of an adjustable prop > without the additonal hardware and complexity. > > What are the wear issues? > > On my other list there is an aerodynamacyst and he has explaned the > advantages of one blade. But quite simply, it is easier to build a two > bladed fixed prop. > > On my Vtail it has a two bladed 88 inch prop. This is more efficient than > the later and shorter 84 inch prop. Newer models have IO 550s (300HP) that > all have 3 blade props. The 3 blade is less efficient, but shorter (less > ground strikes) and quieter. Besides it looks "sexier". > > For a given HP about 1000 to 1300 RPM with a big bladed prop (fewer blades > is better) is the most efficient. However, most engines make their HP at > higher RPM. > > On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 12:42 PM, womenfly2 wrote: > >> > >> >> Seen it fly at Sentimental Journey this year. They did a demo flight >> comparing a standard prop J-3 to an Everal Prop J-3. Everal prop was hard >> to beat! >> >> Climbed faster at a more AOA, faster in level flight. Great idea, but was >> not practical for every day flying. >> >> Cool video! >> WF2 >> >> -------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410007#410007 >> s List Un/Subscription, >> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> ==== >> >> >> >> > * > > * > > * > > D============================================ > npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > D============================================ > //forums.matronics.com > D============================================ > ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > D============================================ > * > > * > > * > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:11 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: One bladed propeller From: "Baldeagle" Thanks for the link, good info. There is a two blade prop with both blades pivoting for automatic variable pitch, the Aeromatic, which is fairly common, and I think is a descendant of the Everal. It's blades rotate around a spanwise axis. And while the Everal does change pitch as it teeters, the teetering allowing centrifugal force to counteract the bending moment allows it to work at all, so really more important for that reason than for the variable pitch I think? Pretty cool item in any event. Also, I think it would work fine for every day use, but was probably too expensive, being so much more complicated than a normal two blade wood prop. And in the Depression. - -------- do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410132#410132 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine out.. again From: "bender" I added some baffling to my carb heat muff. .. welded to the exhaust pipe. Now I have a 55 rise in temp from ambient. So I was seeing 120 in the inlet yesterday. It made the mixture a bit rich. I'm going to run more and adjust the carb. Anybody else know how much heat your making? Jeff Faith Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410136#410136 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:26 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Felix For Sale From: "TriScout" I tethered a piece of an old t-shirt to the cockpit combing w/a leather shoe lace.. http://youtu.be/fpkbuFpHOfo -------- KLNC A65-8 N2308C AN Hardware Airframe 724TT W72CK-42 Sensenich Standard Factory GN-1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410141#410141 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:29 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine out.. again From: "taildrags" Jeff; I'm not sure if you saw the carb icing probability graph that Gerry Holland posted, but the temperature scale of the graph ends at 40*C, or 104*F. In fact, the colored part of the graph (where icing is possible) doesn't even extend beyond about 38*C or 100*F. It sounds like you've got a robust carb heat setup now. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410147#410147 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel tube fuselage tacked From: "nightmare" Update: tacked two sets of "V" bracing behind each seat and welded the receiver fittings that my mount will bolt on to. Still have small piece of longeron to cut out eventually for the door and no seats yet, but weighs in at 34.5 lbs. Cant imagine over 40 lbs after seats. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410156#410156 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/20131009_144638_353.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: "Fun2av8" Hey Guys, As I sit out at the hangar (KCJR) it is a kinda miserable day all cloudy and its drizzling. Gotta tell ya just dont care! The Culpeper Air Fest is this coming Saturday. The war birds are starting to arrive. Many are getting in their formation practice. Rumor has it we will have over 60 Texans on the ramp and in the air on Saturday. Im throwing a Hangar Party all day (if your local send me an email -- come on down !!!). With all this talk about W&B, CG, Datum lines, and other such elusive mysteries, I kinda feel like weve been around the barn and down the rabbit hole a bunch of times. Some really great info and thoughts came out of all of this. I totally lost focus on what started this. What started this ruckus was the discussions about upgrading my tail wheel from the roller skate to an 8 Scott 3200. There were thoughts on both sides pro and con. What stuck with me is that the Scott 3200 weighs 6 pounds and the roller skate weights less than a pound. Then there were thoughts expressed that Piets are typically tail heavy any way and that adding 5 pounds more to the tail would be a big deal. So I figured Id just do the math and see what the calculated effect of this additional weight would be with respect to the CG. I knew that the Datum was key to all of this Then it was off to the races . Measuring stations and compiling data. I got so wrapped up (Yes, I was having lots of fun!) in the process that I lost sight of the goal. OMG I was up till ODark-Thirty still crunching numbers. Thankfully my PC does an automatic shutdown forced me to go to bed. Lots of folks chimed in with their Piet specific CG data. No two Piets had the same data. The CG ranges were interesting. But, since no two Piets are built exactly alike it just makes sense that the CG data would be different. The Datum is arbitrary the Builder decides where he or she wants it to be . For most Piets, but not all Piets - the Datum is the LE of the Wing. It turns out that that might NOT be the case for my Piet. Page 1 of the plans used to build Mr. Sam say that there is a mystery vertical line 9 ahead of the LE. The Wing, Struts, and main gear are situated based on a specific distance from this line. But thenIm guessing that this mystery line is the Datum. No one wrote Datum and drew an arrow to this line. So technically . I still dont know. As I mentioned before It was off to the races logic and reason be damned Im gonna prove where my CG is Well if you look at the previous posts and attachments you can see I had a lot of fun creating spreadsheets with pictures and arrows all over the place just like Alices Restaurant. Oscar must be a lot like me . I suspect he has a few pictures with arrows as well. His detailed instructions on how to do the measure and weigh the Piet are incredibly well written and spot on! Im gonna do just that. I even ordered two 550 pound bathroom scales for less than $80 with shipping. So with all of this hurry scurry and rustling of papers, quivers, and arrows . I still dont know what the mathematical impact of adding 5 pounds to the tail will be. I suppose I could just tie a 5 pound rock to the tail and ask Chuck if he wants to go flying Wouldnt that be a hoot. Truth: Mr. Sam flies well. I dont have any nose or tail heavy issues. Life is good. Gonna go watch the war birds fly. I wonder.If I took off would they join up on me in formation? Ha Ha Ha . Fat chance! P.S. Gonna go with the Scott 2000 ...... No Sweat!!! -------- Jim McWhorter N687MB (New Owner) Culpeper, VA KCJR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410157#410157 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: "Catdesigns" Jim In regards to your mysterious 9.5 inches ahead of the wing on page 1 of your plans. Measure the distance from the firewall to the bracket that holds the lower end of the front cabain strut. If Mr. Sam is a long fuselage it should be about 16.25 inches, if its a short fuselage it would be about 14.25 inches. Im guessing you may find Mike added 2 inches to the nose of the fuselage to help the weight and balance. Chris -------- Chris Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410163#410163 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: Gary Boothe Good luck, Jim! FYI...I just changed my tailwheel design. Old tailwheel, with BHP A frame, weighed about 4 lbs. New set up, with spring and 6" wheel weighs 9 lbs. The math says that CG changed little. Gary Boothe NX308MB Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 9, 2013, at 1:05 PM, "Fun2av8" wrote: > > > Hey Guys, > > As I sit out at the hangar (KCJR) it is a kinda miserable day all cloudy and its drizzling. Gotta tell ya just dont care! The Culpeper Air Fest is this coming Saturday. The war birds are starting to arrive. Many are getting in their formation practice. Rumor has it we will have over 60 Texans on the ramp and in the air on Saturday. Im throwing a Hangar Party all day (if your local send me an email -- come on down !!!). > > With all this talk about W&B, CG, Datum lines, and other such elusive mysteries, I kinda feel like weve been around the barn and down the rabbit hole a bunch of times. Some really great info and thoughts came out of all of this. > > I totally lost focus on what started this. What started this ruckus was the discussions about upgrading my tail wheel from the roller skate to an 8 Scott 3200. There were thoughts on both sides pro and con. What stuck with me is that the Scott 3200 weighs 6 pounds and the roller skate weights less than a pound. Then there were thoughts expressed that Piets are typically tail heavy any way and that adding 5 pounds more to the tail would be a big deal. > > So I figured Id just do the math and see what the calculated effect of this additional weight would be with respect to the CG. I knew that the Datum was key to all of this > > Then it was off to the races . Measuring stations and compiling data. I got so wrapped up (Yes, I was having lots of fun!) in the process that I lost sight of the goal. OMG I was up till ODark-Thirty still crunching numbers. Thankfully my PC does an automatic shutdown forced me to go to bed. > > Lots of folks chimed in with their Piet specific CG data. No two Piets had the same data. The CG ranges were interesting. But, since no two Piets are built exactly alike it just makes sense that the CG data would be different. > > The Datum is arbitrary the Builder decides where he or she wants it to be . For most Piets, but not all Piets - the Datum is the LE of the Wing. It turns out that that might NOT be the case for my Piet. Page 1 of the plans used to build Mr. Sam say that there is a mystery vertical line 9 ahead of the LE. The Wing, Struts, and main gear are situated based on a specific distance from this line. But thenIm guessing that this mystery line is the Datum. No one wrote Datum and drew an arrow to this line. So technically . I still dont know. > > As I mentioned before It was off to the races logic and reason be damned Im gonna prove where my CG is Well if you look at the previous posts and attachments you can see I had a lot of fun creating spreadsheets with pictures and arrows all over the place just like Alices Restaurant. Oscar must be a lot like me . I suspect he has a few pictures with arrows as well. His detailed instructions on how to do the measure and weigh the Piet are incredibly well written and spot on! Im gonna do just that. I even ordered two 550 pound bathroom scales for less than $80 with shipping. > > So with all of this hurry scurry and rustling of papers, quivers, and arrows . I still dont know what the mathematical impact of adding 5 pounds to the tail will be. I suppose I could just tie a 5 pound rock to the tail and ask Chuck if he wants to go flying Wouldnt that be a hoot. > > Truth: Mr. Sam flies well. I dont have any nose or tail heavy issues. Life is good. Gonna go watch the war birds fly. I wonder.If I took off would they join up on me in formation? Ha Ha Ha . Fat chance! > > P.S. Gonna go with the Scott 2000 ...... No Sweat!!! > > -------- > Jim McWhorter > N687MB (New Owner) > Culpeper, VA KCJR > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410157#410157 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: webinar From: Steven Dortch Just finished listening to the webinair on painting with Latex. paint. the presenter was really good. Just a good old boy who followed along with how he did it. I got a lot of good tips from it and am about ready to start. After I finish some other projects. Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:31 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: "Fun2av8" Thanks Gary.....Glad to hear it !!!! -------- Jim McWhorter N687MB (New Owner) Culpeper, VA KCJR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410180#410180 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Progress report From: Rick Well friends, Here is a progress report that I hope is some inspiration for the rest of yo u builders. I just finished the brush coats of primer on one of my wings tod ay. I still need to do the other wing half, which I hope to finish tomorrow. All of the rest of the airframe is finished through the brushed primer coat s. I plan on starting the final finish spray painting in the next week or so. Rick Schreiber, NX478RS Valparaiso, IN Sent from my iPad
________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: "Fun2av8" Mr Michael Brusilow - Mr Sam =================== Does anyone remember what User ID Mike used to sign on the forum? I've searched all posts for N687MB, , Mr Sam, and Brusilow. I only come with stuff I've posted. Chris says he remembers posts when Mike was building Mr. Sam. Those would be pure gold to read. Jim -------- Jim McWhorter N687MB (New Owner) Culpeper, VA KCJR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410184#410184 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:34 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Mr Sam - Pietenpol N687MB From: "Fun2av8" Success !!!! I Googled Mike and found a link to the Matronics Archives. Did a search on N687MB and found a gold mine! :-) Jim -------- Jim McWhorter N687MB (New Owner) Culpeper, VA KCJR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410185#410185 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel tube fuselage tacked From: "taildrags" Paul; it's looking nice. Do you plan to bead-blast and powder coat it after you get all the fittings and tabs installed, or will you just go with primer and/or paint? I don't know about powder coating but it seems to me that if you need to add a tab or fitting after you've powder-coated, you won't be able to get the same finish on the added parts that you have on the powder-coated rest of the thing. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410193#410193 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: webinar From: "taildrags" [UNCLASSIFIED] Steve- was the latex paint webinar by Malcolm Morrison? I've got to view that one. I've heard good things about it. I recall the red paint job that you, Steve & Freda Jones put on your old Chevy Suburban in the blazing Texas heat. I think the paint was curing as soon as it left the spray nozzle, so it's no surprise that the Suburban didn't end up looking exactly like a Ferrari. It also might have helped if the masking tape would have come off before the Texas sun permanently attached the adhesive to your chrome trim ;o) It sure looked like y'all had fun painting that day though. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410194#410194 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:04 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Progress report From: "taildrags" Rick; beautiful! Very nice work, smooth, and it must be immensely satisfying to see it nearing the point of assembling everything into a real airplane. Just as food for thought, and looking at where you have reinforcements added for inspection covers, take a look at where NX41CC has them. I don't endorse these locations, and there are a bunch of them on my airplane, but just think about places you may want to be able to get to or inspect in the future. Take a look here: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/inspection.html With the handheld inspection cameras that are available nowadays, some of these inspection covers can certainly be dispensed with. However, I recently got myself one of the Harbor Freight cheapie ones (limited coverage due to relatively short length of camera probe) and was a bit surprised to find that I couldn't exactly maneuver it down through the wing as easily as I thought I would be able to. Rib gussets and rib lacing presented quite an obstacle course for the little "camera on a snake" to weave through. In any case, you can always add a reinforcing ring and inspection cover if you need one later. Oh, and pay no attention to the fact that the centersection flop droops below the trailing edge of the wing in the last photo on the webpage linked above. I have since added a solid stop to make sure that the TE of the flop lines up with the TE of the main wings. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=410195#410195 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.