---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/30/13: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:40 AM - [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! (Matt Dralle) 1. 04:02 AM - Re: beauty shot at 25 months (gsnewsome) 2. 04:30 AM - Re: Fw: glues (womenfly2) 3. 06:53 AM - Re: Fw: glues (GNflyer) 4. 07:36 AM - Bob's progress (Douwe Blumberg) 5. 07:47 AM - glues (Douwe Blumberg) 6. 09:13 AM - Re: beauty shot at 25 months (bdewenter) 7. 09:30 AM - Re: Fw: glues (dgaldrich) 8. 10:09 AM - Re: beauty shot at 25 months (bdewenter) 9. 10:25 AM - Re: Bob's progress (bdewenter) 10. 10:35 AM - Re: Re: beauty shot at 25 months (Gary Boothe) 11. 12:52 PM - Re: Fw: glues (tools) 12. 12:52 PM - Winter flight (Douwe Blumberg) 13. 01:22 PM - Re: Re: Fw: glues (Kip and Beth Gardner) 14. 03:14 PM - best primer for 4130 fuselage (nightmare) 15. 03:50 PM - Re: best primer for 4130 fuselage (Pietflyer1977) 16. 04:25 PM - Re: Winter flight (GNflyer) 17. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: best primer for 4130 fuselage (Glen Schweizer) 18. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: Fw: glues (Glen Schweizer) 19. 07:25 PM - Re: Fw: glues (GNflyer) 20. 07:45 PM - Love Letters (Larry Williams) 21. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: Fw: glues (Kip and Beth Gardner) 22. 10:59 PM - Thanks to all (At30West) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:36 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: [Please Read] - Last Official Day of List Fund Raiser! Dear Listers, It's November 30th and that always means a couple of things. Its my birthday again; the big 50, in fact! But it also means that it's that last official day of the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser! If you been thinking about picking up one of those really nice incentive gifts now is the time to jump on it!! If you've been meaning to make a Contribution this month but have been putting it off for some reason, NOW is the time! I will be posting the List of Contributors in a few days, so you'll probably want to be known as a person that supported the Lists! I want to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution this year in support of our Lists. It is your generosity that keeps this operation running and I don't ever forget it. The List Contribution Web Site is fast and easy. Please support our habit by making your Contribution right now: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you to all in advance! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: beauty shot at 25 months From: "gsnewsome" Very nice! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414633#414633 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:11 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues From: "womenfly2" T-88 System Three Resin, Inc. Aircraft (http://www.systemthree.com/reslibrary/literature/CertWoodenAircraft.pdf) -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414634#414634 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:44 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues From: "GNflyer" Hee Hee! it reminds me of another builders list I was on for years. whenever a new builder would get on it and ask about it the glue wars as we called them started again. invariably everybody had their reasons a certain glue wasn't ny good and theirs was perfect.I kinda think we all want to think we made the right choice whether we did or not. I bet any of the ones you are recommended on here will work fine if you do the prep and follow he recommendations. ( I kinda favor buttermilk and flour myself_ : Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414642#414642 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:31 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bob's progress YEAH Bob!!! Very nice!!!! Much to be Thankful for. Douwe ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:41 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: glues I'd guess that a very large percentage of wood airplanes built today (does anyone build wood airplanes anymore besides us??) are being built with T-88. It is a good, airworthy and proven glue which combines user friendliness with strength, with moisture resistance, with gap-filling properties with sanding ease and with a proven track record. You would not go wrong to use it, and though there are other good glues out there, I can't think of many reasons to prefer them over a good proven epoxy. I would say fewer and fewer people are using Resorcinol these days. It is more persnickety to use and one REALLY has to be a good carpenter because it won't fill gaps, so you're joints must be VERY precise. The Bingilis books describe the different glue types pretty well, though it's getting a bit dated, he covers most of the ones out there. I personally had a bad experience with "plastic resin" glue. $.02 Douwe ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:19 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: beauty shot at 25 months From: "bdewenter" gboothe wrote: > Looks great, Bob! Your gear looks wider than mine...which is a good > decision! > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > > -- Gary, Thanks! I'm not sure it is wide enough. The inner "locks" needs to be slid to allow the wheel to come in enough for full 1" nut - right now only about half the threads on the nuts are doing their job. Wheels are at 56" on center now. When I move the inner locks I think I will be down to 54" - how wide is yours? I hate to think about paying another $140 to re-machine the axle, but I will if I need to Bob -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414651#414651 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues From: "dgaldrich" So here's a novel idea -- test it yourself. It's called experimental aviation for a reason. Take some scrap pieces (we ALL have scrap pieces) and glue them together in a structure similar to that on the airplane. Make up several samples and test them to destruction. If you're worried about heat degradation, bake em in a low oven for an hour or two. If you're curious about whether sanding has an affect on the joint, make up a couple using both sanded and unsanded wood and break them using the stress in the axis you're concerned about. I have personally tested resorcinol, T-88, and West System on various sanded substrates as well as on varnished pieces. There's nothing like real world data to give you confidence that it's going to hold together. The one variable you can't easily test is the affect of aging but most of the recommended glues have been in use in the marine world for decades so that should probably be a secondary issue. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414652#414652 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: beauty shot at 25 months From: "bdewenter" aerocarjake wrote: > That photo is awesome... Not sure how you managed to Photoshop out the snow...! Jake, Thanks for the compliment. As for the snow, southern Ohio doesn't get much until January-March...Northern Ohio is another story! Don Emch loves the snow! -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414653#414653 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:39 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Bob's progress From: "bdewenter" [quote="douweblumberg(at)earthlin"]YEAH Bob!!! Very nice!!!! Much to be Thankful for. Douwe > [b] Thanks Douwe! Lookikng forward to seeing you again (after winter !!!) Bob -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414655#414655 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: beauty shot at 25 months From: Gary Boothe Mine's 52 1/2". Gear widening is scheduled for December. I can easily get another 6". More than that will be a much larger project. Gary Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 30, 2013, at 9:12 AM, "bdewenter" wrote: > > > > gboothe wrote: >> Looks great, Bob! Your gear looks wider than mine...which is a good >> decision! >> >> Gary Boothe >> NX308MB >> >> >> -- > > > Gary, > > Thanks! I'm not sure it is wide enough. The inner "locks" needs to be slid to allow the wheel to come in enough for full 1" nut - right now only about half the threads on the nuts are doing their job. Wheels are at 56" on center now. When I move the inner locks I think I will be down to 54" - how wide is yours? > > I hate to think about paying another $140 to re-machine the axle, but I will if I need to > > Bob > > -------- > Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter > Dayton OH > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414651#414651 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:16 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues From: "tools" Not trying to start something, but along the idea of testing your own... Is there any reason yellow glue isn't acceptable? I've built LOTS of furniture with it that has seen LOTS of conditions. Indoor stuff, outdoor stuff, stuff in the sun, stuff on trucks subject to vibration, stuff I load the ever living daylights out of (benches and such) and have never had a glue joint fail that was properly built and glued up. Titebond II even has lots of water proofness. Not really knowing the answer to that myself, I'm not necessarily planning to use it, but i have always wondered. I have recently found lots of great information from the boat guys on using epoxy that I really like. Boat hulls certainly see conditions rougher than I'll ever put an airplane through. I'm planning on using T88 (and am using it for some comprehensive repairs - longeron scarfing, tail post replacement, etc) but am considering using some West System stuff. Food for thought. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414663#414663 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:28 PM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Winter flight Flew today for the first time in about seven weeks! Temps got up into the higher 40's with the wind right down the runway, so I figured "now or never". Told my friend I'd fly over his house but he asked if he could come so we met at the airport, pre-flighted her, added ten gallons at the screaming deal price of $4.95 (uggg.) shoehorned him into the front pit and taxied onto the runway. As I'm taxing to the end, I notice something next to his head in the distance. turns out to be a twin-engined spam can on some crazy long final. So I spin around and get off the runway and wait while he does a touch and go, I immediately pull back onto the runway and about three-quarters to the end, see him on a downwind! Got nowhere to go but the grass, so I pull off and wait for him again. Anyways. we then take off and she's climbing like she does with just me on a summer day. Take him down the Licking River at about 1,000 agl. I like this flight because there is nothing but flat fields along the river, so it is relaxing when I'm flying a passenger. After I cross over the high tension lines, I drop down and we work our way back at tree-top level. Then fly over our houses and say hi. Been about 45 minutes and I'm getting a bit cold. Turns out he's toastie as the cabin heater is really working. It sure ain't making any heat for me in the back. Anyways, I can tell I'm ready to land, so we head for home to find a Pitts doing taxi testing on the runway. Eventually he sees me and vacates, so I can slip her in and land directly into the ten mile headwind. Patted her on the nose, closed the hangar door and drove home. God is good! Keep building, it's worth it!! Douwe ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:56 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues Again, the main problem with most of these newer glues is that they've never been evaluated for aviation purposes. I use Titebond 3 (the nearly waterproof formulation) to glue up longbow laminations, a use that subjects the glue line to incredible compression/tension forces & have not had one come apart yet, so I'm willing to bet it's structurally strong enough for many aircraft uses, but that doesn't mean I'd use it on an aircraft without some serious testing in that application. Kip Gardner On Nov 30, 2013, at 3:51 PM, tools wrote: > > Not trying to start something, but along the idea of testing your > own... > > Is there any reason yellow glue isn't acceptable? I've built LOTS > of furniture with it that has seen LOTS of conditions. Indoor > stuff, outdoor stuff, stuff in the sun, stuff on trucks subject to > vibration, stuff I load the ever living daylights out of (benches > and such) and have never had a glue joint fail that was properly > built and glued up. Titebond II even has lots of water proofness. > > Not really knowing the answer to that myself, I'm not necessarily > planning to use it, but i have always wondered. > > I have recently found lots of great information from the boat guys > on using epoxy that I really like. Boat hulls certainly see > conditions rougher than I'll ever put an airplane through. I'm > planning on using T88 (and am using it for some comprehensive > repairs - longeron scarfing, tail post replacement, etc) but am > considering using some West System stuff. > > Food for thought. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414663#414663 > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: best primer for 4130 fuselage From: "nightmare" Was searching the interweb on what primer would be best for 4130. Lots of different opinions. Was leaning towards stewart system 2 part epoxy and no paint. Maybe a light coat of zinc phosphate or chromate first. Any opinions? -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414670#414670 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:20 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: best primer for 4130 fuselage From: "Pietflyer1977" I would use Stits Epoxy primer if you were going to glue your fabric to any part of it. It works the best for not lifting when the glue comes in contact with it. Also have had good luck with PPG industrial CRE epoxy primer that works good and is some tough stuff. When they mix it they can also tint it any color you want if you do not want to paint it. If no fabric is going to be glued to it I would use PPG DP90LF epoxy primer. It sprays nice and lays down smooth with no orange peel. I would go direct to clean metal with any of these. I don't know anything about the Stewart system but if you are covering with that system there glue might not affect any of these primers or any other primers. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414671#414671 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Winter flight From: "GNflyer" Cabin eat huh? I wish! I rolled mine out today too- warmed the mighty corvair up and blasted off. but I am a wimp. it was 59 at the time here but still a light jacket didn't feel like quite enough with the extra breeze coming up my legs as well.but I am sure glad I got it out and flew. like a very intelligent man once said- ( the best plane is the one that is finished and flying) well something like that anyway. mine is definitely not a show plane but it is good to be able to say I fly it. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414672#414672 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:49 PM PST US From: Glen Schweizer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: best primer for 4130 fuselage Any epoxy(NOT THE RATTLE CAN CRAP) would be a great choice. Think about white or other very light color because its easier to inspect for cracks, rust etc. than a dark color ------------------------------ On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 3:49 PM PST Pietflyer1977 wrote: > >I would use Stits Epoxy primer if you were going to glue your fabric to any part of it. It works the best for not lifting when the glue comes in contact with it. Also have had good luck with PPG industrial CRE epoxy primer that works good and is some tough stuff. When they mix it they can also tint it any color you want if you do not want to paint it. If no fabric is going to be glued to it I would use PPG DP90LF epoxy primer. It sprays nice and lays down smooth with no orange peel. I would go direct to clean metal with any of these. I don't know anything about the Stewart system but if you are covering with that system there glue might not affect any of these primers or any other primers. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414671#414671 > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:09 PM PST US From: Glen Schweizer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues Hi again. I've thought of using vinyl acetate glues as well. I spoke with an eaa tech advisor he said (screamed)NO. The reason he gave was that if ever there was moisture intrusion the glue would soften. I did however use thick CA glue for rib construction and after testing to destruction on one rib,found it to be very acceptable. As always,do your own testing. You decide. ------------------------------ On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 12:51 PM PST tools wrote: > >Not trying to start something, but along the idea of testing your own... > >Is there any reason yellow glue isn't acceptable? I've built LOTS of furniture with it that has seen LOTS of conditions. Indoor stuff, outdoor stuff, stuff in the sun, stuff on trucks subject to vibration, stuff I load the ever living daylights out of (benches and such) and have never had a glue joint fail that was properly built and glued up. Titebond II even has lots of water proofness. > >Not really knowing the answer to that myself, I'm not necessarily planning to use it, but i have always wondered. > >I have recently found lots of great information from the boat guys on using epoxy that I really like. Boat hulls certainly see conditions rougher than I'll ever put an airplane through. I'm planning on using T88 (and am using it for some comprehensive repairs - longeron scarfing, tail post replacement, etc) but am considering using some West System stuff. > >Food for thought. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414663#414663 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues From: "GNflyer" I do not know for sure but I think Titebond may be one of the poly ethylene? glues that are like the one I had the dealings with. if so it wasn't their brand, but I was instructed that you did need to dampen one surface with water o help it set and also soak in the wood better. been quite a few years. but for sure that particular glue did hold well with a good fit-however if there was any gap it created a foam which had very little if any strength. Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414675#414675 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Love Letters From: "Larry Williams" Anyone else get a personal rant from Mr. Hyde? I put his address into the spam file. Seems like there was a "Hyde" on the list years ago but it sure didn't sound like this one!! -------- L.V.Williams XCG, XCMR,EPP USHPA, EAA, AMA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414676#414676 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:49 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fwd: glues Titebond is not one of the polyethylene glues - those are the ones like Gorilla Glue, which, as you say, foam in a gap. There are some significant issues with those that make them, in my opinion, unsafe for aircraft. Titebond is an aliphatic resin glue (whatever that is), and is more related to good old Elmer's than any other glue type. Needs to be clamped properly to get a good bond, but I've used it for years in many woodworking projects & is my glue of choice if there's a reason to NOT use an epoxy. On Nov 30, 2013, at 10:24 PM, GNflyer wrote: > > I do not know for sure but I think Titebond may be one of the poly > ethylene? glues that are like the one I had the dealings with. if so > it wasn't their brand, but I was instructed that you did need to > dampen one surface with water o help it set and also soak in the > wood better. been quite a few years. but for sure that particular > glue did hold well with a good fit-however if there was any gap it > created a foam which had very little if any strength. Raymond > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414675#414675 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thanks to all From: "At30West" Thanks to all who responded to my "plans, where to start" topic. I have ordered the building manual from the Pietenpol site and will buy the plans there. Looks like it will be slow going at first! I am located in the great white north... Northern Ohio. KBJJ Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=414678#414678 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.