Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:58 AM - Re: Scout's got wings (AircamperN11MS)
2. 10:41 AM - Re: texas piet. flyin (TriScout)
3. 11:20 AM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (DaveG601XL)
4. 11:52 AM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (bdewenter)
5. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (airlion2@gmail.com)
6. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (Jack Phillips)
7. 01:12 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (DaveG601XL)
8. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: texas piet. flyin (Ryan Mueller)
9. 02:00 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (bdewenter)
10. 02:03 PM - Jack (bdewenter)
11. 02:05 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (bdewenter)
12. 02:29 PM - Re: Jack (Jack Phillips)
13. 04:53 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (Greg Cardinal)
14. 06:06 PM - Re: Ailerons, up and down (tkreiner)
15. 07:10 PM - elevator bellcrank (Dennis Engelkenjohn)
16. 07:31 PM - Re: elevator bellcrank (Ken Bickers)
17. 10:31 PM - Re: elevator bellcrank (Brian Kenney)
18. 11:27 PM - Re: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (Chris)
19. 11:45 PM - Re: Re: Ailerons, up and down (John Woods)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Scout's got wings |
Looks good Oscar. Can't wait to see it.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418527#418527
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| Subject: | Re: texas piet. flyin |
In his defense, I spoke on the phone w/Jim just before leaving on a trip. He's
good people. Just have to understand 'old school'... I've flown w/a lot of guys
from the Braniff One era. Nothing wrong w/a little writer's turret's. Especially
after a few beers after a long haul. It was all meant to be in good fun I
am sure.
--------
KLNC
A65-8
N2308C
AN Hardware
Airframe 724TT
W72CK-42 Sensenich
Standard Factory GN-1
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418544#418544
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Bob,
My eyeball is certainly no substitute for an accurate measurement, but I struggle
to see what is wrong with item B. Assuming this is 4130, it has a bend radius
of 1T. If that is .090 sheet, the bend radius is .090 and a 3/32 bit would
be a close radius gage at .09375. It sure looks like more than a 3/32 bits
worth of radius to me. I have more issues with C as it is not a 90 degree bend.
How, for example, would you weld two bends made like this together for the
center section fitting shown on the Piet drawing in the background of your picture?
I think you could probably back up to item B and just straighten it up
a bit. Now to continue quoting from My Cousin Vinny, my brain is not as smart
as a "Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory Edition Signature Series torque wrench.
The kind used by Caltech high energy physicists and NASA engineers," so if anyone
else wants to correct me, go ahead and chime in.
Good luck. I just made all the CS fittings last year, but have no handy pictures
of them.
--------
David Gallagher
Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 250+ hours now
Next project under construction: Finish my father's Aircamper
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418545#418545
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Careful Dave, I know you. I'll send Russ and Dave over....
Glad to see your on the forum. And I'm still hoping for a tech counselor visit
from you when it warms up this spring.
--------
Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
Dayton OH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418546#418546
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Re. Hey bob. I see that you are going to the Chikamauga party on the 21st. I plan
to go too so I will see you there. Gardiner
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 11, 2014, at 2:51 PM, "bdewenter" <anonymouse@woh.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Careful Dave, I know you. I'll send Russ and Dave over....
> Glad to see your on the forum. And I'm still hoping for a tech counselor visit
from you when it warms up this spring.
>
> --------
> Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
> Dayton OH
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418546#418546
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Careful with your math here. A 3/32" drill bit is 0.09375" in DIAMETER.
Its radius is half that or 0.046875". If that is a close fit with the bend
radius the radius is indeed too tight.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:20 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet
builder
<david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
Bob,
My eyeball is certainly no substitute for an accurate measurement, but I
struggle to see what is wrong with item B. Assuming this is 4130, it has a
bend radius of 1T. If that is .090 sheet, the bend radius is .090 and a
3/32 bit would be a close radius gage at .09375. It sure looks like more
than a 3/32 bits worth of radius to me. I have more issues with C as it is
not a 90 degree bend. How, for example, would you weld two bends made like
this together for the center section fitting shown on the Piet drawing in
the background of your picture? I think you could probably back up to item
B and just straighten it up a bit. Now to continue quoting from My Cousin
Vinny, my brain is not as smart as a "Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory
Edition Signature Series torque wrench. The kind used by Caltech high energy
physicists and NASA engineers," so if anyone else wants to correct me, go
ahead and chime in.
Good luck. I just made all the CS fittings last year, but have no handy
pictures of them.
--------
David Gallagher
Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 250+ hours now
Next project under construction: Finish my father's Aircamper
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418545#418545
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Thanks Jack, I depressed the clutch and disengaged my brain prior to thinking on
that one. 3/16 drill bit.
Bob, are you building at New Carlisle or live close by? It would be a short flight
for me. Russ and I could hop on over in the Zenith some weekend.
--------
David Gallagher
Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 250+ hours now
Next project under construction: Finish my father's Aircamper
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418549#418549
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: texas piet. flyin |
I thought the only drunk one was the pencil-selling Indian in Glendale, but
maybe not.
do not archive
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:40 PM, TriScout <apfelcyber@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> In his defense, I spoke on the phone w/Jim just before leaving on a trip.
> He's good people. Just have to understand 'old school'... I've flown w/a
> lot of guys from the Braniff One era. Nothing wrong w/a little writer's
> turret's. Especially after a few beers after a long haul. It was all meant
> to be in good fun I am sure.
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Dave I talked to you about a year ago before Gary passed. As now we were waiting
for warm weather. I'm in Centerville (so you could fly to Wright Brothers)
--------
Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
Dayton OH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418552#418552
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Jack, I respect your experience. Would you change part C ?
--------
Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
Dayton OH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418553#418553
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Jack,
I appreciate your experience. Would you change part "C" ?
--------
Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
Dayton OH
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To be honest, I've already deleted the original email. Send the pics again
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bdewenter
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:04 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack
Jack, I respect your experience. Would you change part C ?
--------
Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
Dayton OH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418553#418553
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Hi Bob,
One other suggestion would be to polish the edges prior to bending to remove
the stress risers. Polishing after bending only polishes the edges, the
stress risers will remain beneath the surface.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "bdewenter" <anonymouse@woh.rr.com>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:31 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder
>
> To paraphrase Forest Gump, I'm not a smart man...but I know where to find
> advice from Tony Bingellis...
>
> The photo below show my progress attempting to make the center section "U"
> fitting. I made some progress from A to B to C.
>
> Just like the public defender said in the movie "My Cousin Vinnie"... I'm
> getting better...
>
> A is my first attempt without the guidance of Tony.
>
> B is my seconds attempt AFTER reading page 48 and 49 of the Yellow
> Bingellis book. One of the two bends has too little radius.
>
> C is a decent fitting needing more polishing of the edges with some 200
> grit sandpaper.
>
> I'm trying to get all these pieces ready for 'Tools' Toolapalooza 2014
> coming up Feb 20-24 in GA. I'm going to see about getting some welding
> experience on some scraps of 4130 and if I'm lucky get these fitting done
> that weekend.
>
> --------
> Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
> Dayton OH
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418458#418458
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/bingellis_yellow_page49_159.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/abc_751.jpg
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Ailerons, up and down |
After reading this thread some 5 weeks ago, I've awoken with the question in my
head, as Giacommo did, as to how and why differential aileron control works.
So, bear with me, and let's have a little fun with this on a cold February night!
Yup, even here in Houston it's pretty cold yet... but I digress...
Imagine if you can, that the control wires are only attached to the lower aileron
horns, and further, that the wires are in fact tiny diameter rigid wires, such
that, if they were pulled or pushed, there would be neither slack nor stretch.
(In our actual aileron controls, we want both of the lower horns to be identical,
both of the top horns to be identical, and both the left hand an right
hand stick horns to be identical.) Still with me? Great! Let's continue...
Now, when the stick is moved to the left... the eye attached to this rigid cable
moves exactly 2.0 inches. Conversely, when the stick is moved to the right,
the eye on the other side of the stick moves exactly 2.0 inches, as well. If
this weren't the case, there would a larger aileron angle on one side than the
other, and we just don't want that.
So, if the eye on the stick 'horn moves identically side to side, the aileron lower
control horns do as well. Are you beginning to see the point? Maybe not,
so let's delve further into this...
The upper aileron control horns are really along for the ride... in a sense, because
they only balance the movement from one side to another.
So, we ask, how are ailerons made to operate differentially? Simple, thru design
geometry of the control system, specifically the horns.
Since the 'horn moves let us say, 2 in. fore, and 2 in. aft... the geometry of
the horn is the only consideration needed to create differential control. What
the airframe designer does is determine how much displacement he can design
into the control system, and then adjust the horn angles and lengths to get the
displacement and angular motion he desires.
In the attachment, you'll see some angles, and some dimensions - these are looking
at the left hand aileron control horn from the cockpit. For the moment, forget
about the top aileron horn, as, like I stated earlier, for our purpose,
it's only along for the ride. The attachment will require a little thought to
understand, but you'll get it quickly. Prior to moving the ailerons, the stick
will be in the neutral position, and accordingly, the line labeled N is where
the centerline of the control horn eye will be located. When the stick is
move to the right, the cable will move - in this case - 1.95 inches, pulling
the aileron down. When the stick is moved to the left, that same displacement
of 1.95 inches yields a larger angle, and that angle is determined solely by
control horn geometry. (The angle of 41.4 deg. from a line perpendicular to the
bottom of the airfoil determines the angles shown for the equal displacement
yielding 15 and 20 degrees of down and up aileron, respectively.)
Back to the top control horn... Whether the horn is 3 in. from the instant center,
or 3 ft, doesn't matter, as the other horn will be identical, and the two
horns will displace exactly the same distance. Like I said earlier, the top horns
only create the balance needed in the system.
Now for the bad news... the control geometry of the Piet does NOT provide the type
of differential control we want in an aircraft; the angles given in the LAA
document of 15 deg. up and 20 deg. down appear to be correct per the Hoopman
drawings, and if you want proper differential controls, you will need to redesign
your control horns on your own. Perhaps these angles work well with the
FC-10 airfoil; one can only guess, as there are dozens if not hundreds of Piet's
being flown with them, and they appear to be OK.
There will be a small amount of cable geometry to be considered, but I thought
it would be beyond the basics shown here.
Shoot me comments, but DON'T SHOOT ME!
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418566#418566
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/control_horn_geometry_908.jpg
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| Subject: | elevator bellcrank |
I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper
right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9=9D
from the lower longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag
on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I
raise the center of the bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at
Brodhead that just glued a piece of leather to the top of the leading
edge but was wondering if I could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing?
Any ideas?
Dennis
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| Subject: | Re: elevator bellcrank |
Dennis,
This is one of the recurrent items that pops up from time to time. Many
builders, myself included, have been advised to raise the bell crank 2
inches. That is good advice and does the trick. The top cables for the
elevators will clear the leading edge of the elevator with that 2 inch
change.
One change begets another. By raising the bell crank, you probably will
want to consider adding pulleys to redirect the cables connecting the
control stick to the forward connections on the bell crank as they pass
under the seat. I stayed with the plans for the lower cable but used a
pulley for redirecting the upper cable. Many others have opted to use
pulleys for both cables.
Cheers, Ken
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Dennis Engelkenjohn <mushface1@gmail.com>wrote:
> I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper
> right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9" from the lower
> longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag on the leading edge
> of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I raise the center of the
> bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at Brodhead that just glued a
> piece of leather to the top of the leading edge but was wondering if I
> could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing? Any ideas?
> Dennis
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: elevator bellcrank |
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder |
Bob
You didn't ask me but here is my answer. I would not use part C and it is
unlikely you could make it the correct size if you tried to fix it. Part B
left side is your best bend. You might be able to salvage B but it's
probably not worth the effort.
I think you have something wrong with your technique. I found that using
wood forms, like the yellow book shows, for material this thick would crush
the wood and make the bend radius too large and not produce nice bends. My
results were very similar to your results. Maybe it works with aluminum but
I have not tried it. What I ended up doing is taking a piece of 3/8-inch
6-inches long x 2-inch wide steel bar (scrap I picked up at a scrap metal
dealer). The dimensions don't need to be exact. Make the correct radius on
one edge. As others have said 4130 can have a 1xthickness bend radius for
the 90 degree bend. Also, if you're trying for a 90 degree bend you will
have to bend it past 90 so you will have to grind off some of the top of the
bar like the book shows.
In this picture
http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/IMG_0048.JPG you can
see that I have the part to be bent sandwiched between the radiused bar and
another one that acts as a backer for the fitting (in this case the rudder
horn). You will want to hit the metal to be bent close to the bar so the
bend all happens along the bar. I found hitting it with a hammer left marks
so I use a chunk of wood or better yet a bronze rod I found at the scrap
yard.
For the fitting that your trying to make, I made the first 90 bend in the
vice like in the picture. Then to form the U I had to clamp it off the end
of the vice and use a C-clamp to hold the other end. This will require you
to figure out your bend layout (like in the blue Bengals book?) but it is
not hard. What you are striving for are flat side with a nice bend. Not
curved like in the bottom of your part C. If you need any more help I can
shoot some better pictures of the process.
The best thing I made to bend parts was this.
http://westcoastpiet.com/bench-top_bender.htm > It makes for easy bending
and reproducibility.
Chris T.
Sacramento, Ca
Westcoastpiet.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bdewenter
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet
builder
--> <anonymouse@woh.rr.com>
Jack,
I appreciate your experience. Would you change part "C" ?
--------
Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter
Dayton OH
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418554#418554
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Ailerons, up and down |
Tom,
The way I see it, you have only told half the story.
You haven't actually shown the Aileron movement above and below the
horizontal.
If you take your diagram a bit further and projec the same angular movement
above and below the horizontal axis, pivoting through the control horn axis
(hinge line??) you will find that the 20 degrees up angle gives you more
aileron movement than the 15 degrees down angle.
The differential is achieved by the 41.4 deg off-set from the vertical line
dropped down from the hinge line.
Hope this makes sense.
JohnW
Perth Western Australia
Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/control_horn_geometry_908.jpg
>
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