---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/11/14: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:58 AM - Re: Scout's got wings (AircamperN11MS) 2. 10:41 AM - Re: texas piet. flyin (TriScout) 3. 11:20 AM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (DaveG601XL) 4. 11:52 AM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (bdewenter) 5. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (airlion2@gmail.com) 6. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (Jack Phillips) 7. 01:12 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (DaveG601XL) 8. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: texas piet. flyin (Ryan Mueller) 9. 02:00 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (bdewenter) 10. 02:03 PM - Jack (bdewenter) 11. 02:05 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (bdewenter) 12. 02:29 PM - Re: Jack (Jack Phillips) 13. 04:53 PM - Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (Greg Cardinal) 14. 06:06 PM - Re: Ailerons, up and down (tkreiner) 15. 07:10 PM - elevator bellcrank (Dennis Engelkenjohn) 16. 07:31 PM - Re: elevator bellcrank (Ken Bickers) 17. 10:31 PM - Re: elevator bellcrank (Brian Kenney) 18. 11:27 PM - Re: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder (Chris) 19. 11:45 PM - Re: Re: Ailerons, up and down (John Woods) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Scout's got wings From: "AircamperN11MS" Looks good Oscar. Can't wait to see it. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418527#418527 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: texas piet. flyin From: "TriScout" In his defense, I spoke on the phone w/Jim just before leaving on a trip. He's good people. Just have to understand 'old school'... I've flown w/a lot of guys from the Braniff One era. Nothing wrong w/a little writer's turret's. Especially after a few beers after a long haul. It was all meant to be in good fun I am sure. -------- KLNC A65-8 N2308C AN Hardware Airframe 724TT W72CK-42 Sensenich Standard Factory GN-1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418544#418544 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder From: "DaveG601XL" Bob, My eyeball is certainly no substitute for an accurate measurement, but I struggle to see what is wrong with item B. Assuming this is 4130, it has a bend radius of 1T. If that is .090 sheet, the bend radius is .090 and a 3/32 bit would be a close radius gage at .09375. It sure looks like more than a 3/32 bits worth of radius to me. I have more issues with C as it is not a 90 degree bend. How, for example, would you weld two bends made like this together for the center section fitting shown on the Piet drawing in the background of your picture? I think you could probably back up to item B and just straighten it up a bit. Now to continue quoting from My Cousin Vinny, my brain is not as smart as a "Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory Edition Signature Series torque wrench. The kind used by Caltech high energy physicists and NASA engineers," so if anyone else wants to correct me, go ahead and chime in. Good luck. I just made all the CS fittings last year, but have no handy pictures of them. -------- David Gallagher Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 250+ hours now Next project under construction: Finish my father's Aircamper Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418545#418545 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:16 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder From: "bdewenter" Careful Dave, I know you. I'll send Russ and Dave over.... Glad to see your on the forum. And I'm still hoping for a tech counselor visit from you when it warms up this spring. -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418546#418546 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder From: airlion2@gmail.com Re. Hey bob. I see that you are going to the Chikamauga party on the 21st. I plan to go too so I will see you there. Gardiner Sent from my iPad > On Feb 11, 2014, at 2:51 PM, "bdewenter" wrote: > > > Careful Dave, I know you. I'll send Russ and Dave over.... > Glad to see your on the forum. And I'm still hoping for a tech counselor visit from you when it warms up this spring. > > -------- > Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter > Dayton OH > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418546#418546 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:36 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder Careful with your math here. A 3/32" drill bit is 0.09375" in DIAMETER. Its radius is half that or 0.046875". If that is a close fit with the bend radius the radius is indeed too tight. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DaveG601XL Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder Bob, My eyeball is certainly no substitute for an accurate measurement, but I struggle to see what is wrong with item B. Assuming this is 4130, it has a bend radius of 1T. If that is .090 sheet, the bend radius is .090 and a 3/32 bit would be a close radius gage at .09375. It sure looks like more than a 3/32 bits worth of radius to me. I have more issues with C as it is not a 90 degree bend. How, for example, would you weld two bends made like this together for the center section fitting shown on the Piet drawing in the background of your picture? I think you could probably back up to item B and just straighten it up a bit. Now to continue quoting from My Cousin Vinny, my brain is not as smart as a "Craftsman model 1019 Laboratory Edition Signature Series torque wrench. The kind used by Caltech high energy physicists and NASA engineers," so if anyone else wants to correct me, go ahead and chime in. Good luck. I just made all the CS fittings last year, but have no handy pictures of them. -------- David Gallagher Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 250+ hours now Next project under construction: Finish my father's Aircamper Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418545#418545 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder From: "DaveG601XL" Thanks Jack, I depressed the clutch and disengaged my brain prior to thinking on that one. 3/16 drill bit. Bob, are you building at New Carlisle or live close by? It would be a short flight for me. Russ and I could hop on over in the Zenith some weekend. -------- David Gallagher Zodiac 601 XL-B: flying, 250+ hours now Next project under construction: Finish my father's Aircamper Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418549#418549 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: texas piet. flyin From: Ryan Mueller I thought the only drunk one was the pencil-selling Indian in Glendale, but maybe not. do not archive On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:40 PM, TriScout wrote: > > In his defense, I spoke on the phone w/Jim just before leaving on a trip. > He's good people. Just have to understand 'old school'... I've flown w/a > lot of guys from the Braniff One era. Nothing wrong w/a little writer's > turret's. Especially after a few beers after a long haul. It was all meant > to be in good fun I am sure. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:00:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder From: "bdewenter" Dave I talked to you about a year ago before Gary passed. As now we were waiting for warm weather. I'm in Centerville (so you could fly to Wright Brothers) -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418552#418552 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack From: "bdewenter" Jack, I respect your experience. Would you change part C ? -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418553#418553 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:51 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder From: "bdewenter" Jack, I appreciate your experience. Would you change part "C" ? -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418554#418554 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:47 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Jack To be honest, I've already deleted the original email. Send the pics again Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bdewenter Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:04 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack Jack, I respect your experience. Would you change part C ? -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418553#418553 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:36 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder Hi Bob, One other suggestion would be to polish the edges prior to bending to remove the stress risers. Polishing after bending only polishes the edges, the stress risers will remain beneath the surface. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "bdewenter" Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:31 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder > > To paraphrase Forest Gump, I'm not a smart man...but I know where to find > advice from Tony Bingellis... > > The photo below show my progress attempting to make the center section "U" > fitting. I made some progress from A to B to C. > > Just like the public defender said in the movie "My Cousin Vinnie"... I'm > getting better... > > A is my first attempt without the guidance of Tony. > > B is my seconds attempt AFTER reading page 48 and 49 of the Yellow > Bingellis book. One of the two bends has too little radius. > > C is a decent fitting needing more polishing of the edges with some 200 > grit sandpaper. > > I'm trying to get all these pieces ready for 'Tools' Toolapalooza 2014 > coming up Feb 20-24 in GA. I'm going to see about getting some welding > experience on some scraps of 4130 and if I'm lucky get these fitting done > that weekend. > > -------- > Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter > Dayton OH > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418458#418458 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/bingellis_yellow_page49_159.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/abc_751.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down From: "tkreiner" After reading this thread some 5 weeks ago, I've awoken with the question in my head, as Giacommo did, as to how and why differential aileron control works. So, bear with me, and let's have a little fun with this on a cold February night! Yup, even here in Houston it's pretty cold yet... but I digress... Imagine if you can, that the control wires are only attached to the lower aileron horns, and further, that the wires are in fact tiny diameter rigid wires, such that, if they were pulled or pushed, there would be neither slack nor stretch. (In our actual aileron controls, we want both of the lower horns to be identical, both of the top horns to be identical, and both the left hand an right hand stick horns to be identical.) Still with me? Great! Let's continue... Now, when the stick is moved to the left... the eye attached to this rigid cable moves exactly 2.0 inches. Conversely, when the stick is moved to the right, the eye on the other side of the stick moves exactly 2.0 inches, as well. If this weren't the case, there would a larger aileron angle on one side than the other, and we just don't want that. So, if the eye on the stick 'horn moves identically side to side, the aileron lower control horns do as well. Are you beginning to see the point? Maybe not, so let's delve further into this... The upper aileron control horns are really along for the ride... in a sense, because they only balance the movement from one side to another. So, we ask, how are ailerons made to operate differentially? Simple, thru design geometry of the control system, specifically the horns. Since the 'horn moves let us say, 2 in. fore, and 2 in. aft... the geometry of the horn is the only consideration needed to create differential control. What the airframe designer does is determine how much displacement he can design into the control system, and then adjust the horn angles and lengths to get the displacement and angular motion he desires. In the attachment, you'll see some angles, and some dimensions - these are looking at the left hand aileron control horn from the cockpit. For the moment, forget about the top aileron horn, as, like I stated earlier, for our purpose, it's only along for the ride. The attachment will require a little thought to understand, but you'll get it quickly. Prior to moving the ailerons, the stick will be in the neutral position, and accordingly, the line labeled N is where the centerline of the control horn eye will be located. When the stick is move to the right, the cable will move - in this case - 1.95 inches, pulling the aileron down. When the stick is moved to the left, that same displacement of 1.95 inches yields a larger angle, and that angle is determined solely by control horn geometry. (The angle of 41.4 deg. from a line perpendicular to the bottom of the airfoil determines the angles shown for the equal displacement yielding 15 and 20 degrees of down and up aileron, respectively.) Back to the top control horn... Whether the horn is 3 in. from the instant center, or 3 ft, doesn't matter, as the other horn will be identical, and the two horns will displace exactly the same distance. Like I said earlier, the top horns only create the balance needed in the system. Now for the bad news... the control geometry of the Piet does NOT provide the type of differential control we want in an aircraft; the angles given in the LAA document of 15 deg. up and 20 deg. down appear to be correct per the Hoopman drawings, and if you want proper differential controls, you will need to redesign your control horns on your own. Perhaps these angles work well with the FC-10 airfoil; one can only guess, as there are dozens if not hundreds of Piet's being flown with them, and they appear to be OK. There will be a small amount of cable geometry to be considered, but I thought it would be beyond the basics shown here. Shoot me comments, but DON'T SHOOT ME! -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418566#418566 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/control_horn_geometry_908.jpg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:19 PM PST US From: "Dennis Engelkenjohn" Subject: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9=9D from the lower longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I raise the center of the bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at Brodhead that just glued a piece of leather to the top of the leading edge but was wondering if I could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing? Any ideas? Dennis ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank From: Ken Bickers Dennis, This is one of the recurrent items that pops up from time to time. Many builders, myself included, have been advised to raise the bell crank 2 inches. That is good advice and does the trick. The top cables for the elevators will clear the leading edge of the elevator with that 2 inch change. One change begets another. By raising the bell crank, you probably will want to consider adding pulleys to redirect the cables connecting the control stick to the forward connections on the bell crank as they pass under the seat. I stayed with the plans for the lower cable but used a pulley for redirecting the upper cable. Many others have opted to use pulleys for both cables. Cheers, Ken On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:16 PM, Dennis Engelkenjohn wrote: > I need some help here. According to the Hoopman plans, page 4, upper > right hand corner the center of the elevator bellcrank is 9" from the lower > longeron. This causes the upper elevator cables to drag on the leading edge > of the horizontal stabilizer. What will happen if I raise the center of the > bellcrank up an inch or so? Have seen many at Brodhead that just glued a > piece of leather to the top of the leading edge but was wondering if I > could move it slightly to avoid the rubbing? Any ideas? > Dennis > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: elevator bellcrank From: Brian Kenney SXQgZG9lcyBydWIgb24gdGhlIGdyb3VuZCBhbmQgSSBwdXQgbGl0dGxlIGJyYXNzIHN0cmlwcyBv biB0aGUgbGVhZGluZyBlZGdlLiBNeSBzaGFmdCBpcyBpbiB0aGUgc3RvIGNrIGxvY2F0aW9uDQoN ClNlbnQgZnJvbSBteSBpUGFkDQoNCj4gT24gRmViIDEyLCAyMDE0LCBhdCA0OjEzIFBNLCAiRGVu bmlzIEVuZ2Vsa2Vuam9obiIgPG11c2hmYWNlMUBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gSSBu ZWVkIHNvbWUgaGVscCBoZXJlLiBBY2NvcmRpbmcgdG8gdGhlIEhvb3BtYW4gcGxhbnMsIHBhZ2Ug NCwgdXBwZXIgcmlnaHQgaGFuZCBjb3JuZXIgdGhlIGNlbnRlciBvZiB0aGUgZWxldmF0b3IgYmVs bGNyYW5rIGlzIDnigJ0gZnJvbSB0aGUgbG93ZXIgbG9uZ2Vyb24uIFRoaXMgY2F1c2VzIHRoZSB1 cHBlciBlbGV2YXRvciBjYWJsZXMgdG8gZHJhZyBvbiB0aGUgbGVhZGluZyBlZGdlIG9mIHRoZSBo b3Jpem9udGFsIHN0YWJpbGl6ZXIuIFdoYXQgd2lsbCBoYXBwZW4gaWYgSSByYWlzZSB0aGUgY2Vu dGVyIG9mIHRoZSBiZWxsY3JhbmsgdXAgYW4gaW5jaCBvciBzbz8gSGF2ZSBzZWVuIG1hbnkgYXQg QnJvZGhlYWQgdGhhdCBqdXN0IGdsdWVkIGEgcGllY2Ugb2YgbGVhdGhlciB0byB0aGUgdG9wIG9m IHRoZSBsZWFkaW5nIGVkZ2UgYnV0IHdhcyB3b25kZXJpbmcgaWYgSSBjb3VsZCBtb3ZlIGl0IHNs aWdodGx5IHRvIGF2b2lkIHRoZSBydWJiaW5nPyBBbnkgaWRlYXM/DQo+IERlbm5pcw0KPiANCj4g DQo+IF8tPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEDQo+IF8tPTNEICAgICAgICAgIC0gVGhlIFBpZXRlbnBvbC1MaXN0IEVt YWlsIEZvcnVtIC0NCj4gXy09M0QgVXNlIHRoZSBNYXRyb25pY3MgTGlzdCBGZWF0dXJlcyBOYXZp Z2F0b3IgdG8gYnJvd3NlDQo+IF8tPTNEIHRoZSBtYW55IExpc3QgdXRpbGl0aWVzIHN1Y2ggYXMg TGlzdCBVbi9TdWJzY3JpcHRpb24sDQo+IF8tPTNEIEFyY2hpdmUgU2VhcmNoICYgRG93bmxvYWQs IDctRGF5IEJyb3dzZSwgQ2hhdCwgRkFRLA0KPiBfLT0zRCBQaG90b3NoYXJlLCBhbmQgbXVjaCBt dWNoIG1vcmU6DQo+IF8tPTNEDQo+IF8tPTNEICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNv bS9OYXZpZ2F0b3I/UGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3QNCj4gXy09M0QNCj4gXy09M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0QNCj4gXy09 M0QgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtIE1BVFJPTklDUyBXRUIgRk9SVU1TIC0NCj4gXy09M0QgU2FtZSBn cmVhdCBjb250ZW50IGFsc28gYXZhaWxhYmxlIHZpYSB0aGUgV2ViIEZvcnVtcyENCj4gXy09M0QN Cj4gXy09M0QgICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQo+IF8tPTNEDQo+IF8t PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEDQo+IF8tPTNEICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gTGlzdCBDb250cmlidXRpb24gV2ViIFNp dGUgLQ0KPiBfLT0zRCAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGdlbmVyb3VzIHN1cHBvcnQhDQo+IF8t PTNEICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLU1hdHQgRHJhbGxlLCBMaXN0IEFkbWlu Lg0KPiBfLT0zRCAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQo+ IF8tPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEDQo+IA0K ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:20 PM PST US From: "Chris" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder Bob You didn't ask me but here is my answer. I would not use part C and it is unlikely you could make it the correct size if you tried to fix it. Part B left side is your best bend. You might be able to salvage B but it's probably not worth the effort. I think you have something wrong with your technique. I found that using wood forms, like the yellow book shows, for material this thick would crush the wood and make the bend radius too large and not produce nice bends. My results were very similar to your results. Maybe it works with aluminum but I have not tried it. What I ended up doing is taking a piece of 3/8-inch 6-inches long x 2-inch wide steel bar (scrap I picked up at a scrap metal dealer). The dimensions don't need to be exact. Make the correct radius on one edge. As others have said 4130 can have a 1xthickness bend radius for the 90 degree bend. Also, if you're trying for a 90 degree bend you will have to bend it past 90 so you will have to grind off some of the top of the bar like the book shows. In this picture http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Chris%20Tracy/images/IMG_0048.JPG you can see that I have the part to be bent sandwiched between the radiused bar and another one that acts as a backer for the fitting (in this case the rudder horn). You will want to hit the metal to be bent close to the bar so the bend all happens along the bar. I found hitting it with a hammer left marks so I use a chunk of wood or better yet a bronze rod I found at the scrap yard. For the fitting that your trying to make, I made the first 90 bend in the vice like in the picture. Then to form the U I had to clamp it off the end of the vice and use a C-clamp to hold the other end. This will require you to figure out your bend layout (like in the blue Bengals book?) but it is not hard. What you are striving for are flat side with a nice bend. Not curved like in the bottom of your part C. If you need any more help I can shoot some better pictures of the process. The best thing I made to bend parts was this. http://westcoastpiet.com/bench-top_bender.htm > It makes for easy bending and reproducibility. Chris T. Sacramento, Ca Westcoastpiet.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bdewenter Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 2:05 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More files from the Galacticly inept Piet builder --> Jack, I appreciate your experience. Would you change part "C" ? -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=418554#418554 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ailerons, up and down From: John Woods Tom, The way I see it, you have only told half the story. You haven't actually shown the Aileron movement above and below the horizontal. If you take your diagram a bit further and projec the same angular movement above and below the horizontal axis, pivoting through the control horn axis (hinge line??) you will find that the 20 degrees up angle gives you more aileron movement than the 15 degrees down angle. The differential is achieved by the 41.4 deg off-set from the vertical line dropped down from the hinge line. Hope this makes sense. JohnW Perth Western Australia Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/control_horn_geometry_908.jpg > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.