---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/24/14: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Re: Re: Feb 20 to 24, hangar gathering, doing "stuff", Cha (danhelsper@aol.com) 2. 04:47 AM - Re: Feb 20 to 24, hangar gathering, doing "stuff", Cha (tools) 3. 05:32 AM - Re: safety wire (shad bell) 4. 05:45 AM - Re: safety wire (john francis) 5. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: safety wire (Gary Boothe) 6. 05:53 AM - Re: safety wire (Jack Phillips) 7. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: Feb 20 to 24, hangar gathering, doing "stuff", Cha (airlion2@gmail.com) 8. 06:01 AM - Re: safety wire (john francis) 9. 06:44 AM - Buy Samsung Note 3 $450/BlackBerry Porsche =?ISO-8859-1?Q?P=999982?=/Sony PS4 (wabbss) 10. 08:01 AM - New E-mail address (Charles N. Campbell) 11. 09:31 AM - Vasek's Pietenpol project (Vasek) 12. 09:52 AM - Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project (larharris2 Harris) 13. 10:15 AM - Re: safety wire (taildrags) 14. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: safety wire (Ken Bickers) 15. 12:21 PM - VW engines in Pietenpols (Bill Church) 16. 12:30 PM - Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project (Jack Phillips) 17. 01:16 PM - Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project (Vasek) 18. 01:57 PM - Re: New E-mail address (jarheadpilot82) 19. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: safety wire (shad bell) 20. 03:23 PM - Newsletter (Gary Boothe) 21. 03:28 PM - Re: Newsletter (Boatright, Jeffrey) 22. 03:29 PM - Re: Newsletter (Jack Phillips) 23. 03:37 PM - : Newsletter (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 24. 04:03 PM - Re: Newsletter (airlion2@gmail.com) 25. 04:16 PM - corvair acceleration (nightmare) 26. 04:28 PM - Re: corvair acceleration (taildrags) 27. 05:00 PM - Re: Re: corvair acceleration (Boatright, Jeffrey) 28. 05:34 PM - Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project (aviken) 29. 05:48 PM - Re: corvair acceleration (shad bell) 30. 05:53 PM - Re: safety wire (Braniff1966) 31. 07:32 PM - fish scales (taildrags) 32. 09:04 PM - Re: fish scales (Brian Kenney) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Feb 20 to 24, hangar gathering, doing "stuff", Cha From: danhelsper@aol.com Tools, Any photos from the event? Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: tools Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 7:52 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Feb 20 to 24, hangar gathering, doing "stuff", Cha You are VERY welcome, it was my pleasure. I do hope to see you again next year. There should be a lot more Piet mentors there next year. Speaking of, you would be a good mentor as you now have a feel for how things run and what it's li ke. Thanks for coming! Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419206#419206 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:38 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Feb 20 to 24, hangar gathering, doing "stuff", Cha From: "tools" I didn't take a single one! However, there are some posted in the "events" section of www.owwm.org, in a thread about "Toolstock". More will show up. I'll also get sent some videos a buddy took and will post them here when they show up. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419219#419219 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:53 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: safety wire I almost always use .032 at work unless something else is called out. Prop bolts, and turnbuckles are about the onlt thing I can think you need .041 on a Piet. Most electrical connections (cannon plugs), or small philister head screws (6-32, 8-32) use .021, or .025. Shad -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 2/23/14, Gary Boothe wrote: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: safety wire To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, February 23, 2014, 11:50 PM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Gary Boothe" Fortunately, the manufacturer of NX308MB specified .020. Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of taildrags Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 8:24 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: safety wire --> By the way, and since the list is fairly quiet right now, I'll take a minute to post this. The words "safety wire" should be changed to something else. Every time I have to safety something, I end up with more cuts than a government sequester and "safety wire" is quite unsafe when it comes to its tendency to draw blood. The two worst offenders are the .041 and the .020. The medium-sized wire is fairly well behaved because you can bend it easily and tease it into place with your fingers, but the .041 is a beast to deal with unless you use pliers and the small stuff is like a tiny silver viper, just waiting to get you with its little fang. And just try working it in a blind area without getting bitten. The other thing about safety wire is that I waste a lot of it by re-doing the safetying. I can never remember the right way to safety pairs of things and I have to start over, or I cut the piece of wire just a little too short and have to start over. I've also noticed that I get the dirty eye from A&Ps when I use any of the smaller sizes of wire. They want everything done in .041 unless the hole in the fastener simply will not pass that size of wire, and it's crazy. Why do we even have anything but .041 then? And why try fishing it through all the little screws and jets and things on a Stromberg carb? My guess is that I could take my big old single-speed Craftsman 1/2" drill and chuck a fly cutter in it, then stake it down with a piece of .041 safety wire and try to bore a hole in some kind of gnarly material with the fly cutter off-axis, and that thing could bite and claw and try to torque itself like a fork in spaghetti and a single strand of .041 could hold it. Why in heaven's name we need to put that heavy safety wire on little fasteners and turnbuckles I will never know. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419209#419209 Email Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire From: "john francis" What size are you using to safety wire turnbuckles? John -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419221#419221 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:55 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire .020 Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john francis Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire --> What size are you using to safety wire turnbuckles? John -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419221#419221 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:12 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: safety wire Oscar, Are you using a safety wire tool to twist the wires, or are you trying to do it by hand? A safety wire tool makes it pretty easy (except for turnbuckles, which are just a pain in the butt). You can get a decent (Chinese) safety wire tool for $20 or less. A good one will run about $60. Just remember to always put the wire on in such a way that the wire is forced to get tighter for the nut or bolt to loosen. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of taildrags Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: safety wire By the way, and since the list is fairly quiet right now, I'll take a minute to post this. The words "safety wire" should be changed to something else. Every time I have to safety something, I end up with more cuts than a government sequester and "safety wire" is quite unsafe when it comes to its tendency to draw blood. The two worst offenders are the .041 and the .020. The medium-sized wire is fairly well behaved because you can bend it easily and tease it into place with your fingers, but the .041 is a beast to deal with unless you use pliers and the small stuff is like a tiny silver viper, just waiting to get you with its little fang. And just try working it in a blind area without getting bitten. The other thing about safety wire is that I waste a lot of it by re-doing the safetying. I can never remember the right way to safety pairs of things and I have to start over, or I cut the piece of wire just a little too short and have to start over. I've also noticed that I get the dirty eye from A&Ps when I use any of the smaller sizes of wire. They want everything done in .041 unless the hole in the fastener simply will not pass that size of wire, and it's crazy. Why do we even have anything but .041 then? And why try fishing it through all the little screws and jets and things on a Stromberg carb? My guess is that I could take my big old single-speed Craftsman 1/2" drill and chuck a fly cutter in it, then stake it down with a piece of .041 safety wire and try to bore a hole in some kind of gnarly material with the fly cutter off-axis, and that thing could bite and claw and try to torque itself like a fork in spaghetti and a single strand of .041 could hold it. Why in heaven's name we need to put that heavy safety wire on little fasteners and turnbuckles I will never know. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419209#419209 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Feb 20 to 24, hangar gathering, doing "stuff", Cha From: airlion2@gmail.com Thanks for a. Very good time Mike and my hats off to Kellie and. Judy. They did a .fantastic job of feeding everyone. I plan on coming back next year. Gardiner Sent from my iPad > On Feb 23, 2014, at 8:49 AM, "tools" wrote: > > > THANKS for coming! We actually had a pretty good showing of Pieters whom I thought ALL integrated well with the old woodworking machines crowd. > > The weekend (still underway, just had a newcomer show a few minutes ago) was fantastically productive. The Carrollton gang pledged to come early and stay next year to help (BADLY needed) mentor the Piet crowd with their projects. > > Everyone pitched in a lot to keep things moving. However, it was Kellie and Judy who, for no other than reason being saints, brunted the VAST majority of responsibility for folks being fed WELL and timely. My philosophy is let grown men fend for themselves... probably flawed thinking anyway! Thanks to them! > > Hope to see more folks next year. There's some pics in the "events" section of OWWM.ORG for folks who want to visit vicariously. > > Cheers, > > Tools > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419175#419175 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire From: "john francis" I did a lot of safety wiring while working on aircraft in the Navy. For a while we were told to not use our pliers because they felt it may nick and weaken the wire. A few months later it was okay to once again use the safety wire pliers. Today I do my safety wiring by hand unless it is a long run. Thanks -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419225#419225 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Buy Samsung Note 3 $450/BlackBerry Porsche =?ISO-8859-1?Q?P=999982?=/Sony PS4 From: "wabbss" WE GLADLY WELCOME!! YOU TO MURTEN STORE LIMITED MURTEN STORE LIMITED NOW OFFER A ANNUAL SALE!!! We are dealers of all kinds of Mobile Phones Such as Apple Iphone, Blackberry, Nokia, Samsung, HTC, Sony Ericsson and many more. All our products are brand new, Original, comes with complete accessories and they also come with 1 year international warranty. We also give 90 days return policy on every products that has been paid for and delivered to it owner, if within this days your equipment develop any fault or damages you can return it back to us: We make shipment through FedEx Express/UPS/DHL Services within 48hrs to your doorstep. 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SATISFACTION GUARANTEED Contact Name : Stephen Clive Murray Email : murtenltd@musetr.com Skype : murtenltd Web :: murt.miiduu.com BBM 24Hrs Chat : 27D4D1EE MGT Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419228#419228 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: New E-mail address From: "Charles N. Campbell" Just want the list to know that my outlook E-mail program fouled up and the messages were not being shown -- just the addresses. So, I changed to gmail. I didn't really like the outlook any way. So, my new address is: charlescampbell1924@gmail.com Chuck ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vasek's Pietenpol project From: "Vasek" Hello, Recently I decided to build a Pietenpol, but before I start, I would like to ask you and discuss the possibilities I have. I am in the Czech Republic (central europe). I am a young amateur aircraft technician, pilot, producer of historic aircraft propellers and still a student. But mainly, I am a big fan of aviation. At the moment I have an engine (VW 2500 85hp) and metal-tube construction of the fuselage + tail surfaces available. My plan is to build a beautiful airplane, which will look very similar to the original aircraft from twenties/thirties. My friend is a skilled aircraft builder and constructor, who guaranties me that the aircraft will be safe, will fly and will provide me all information concerning the construction. The engine I propose is available for a quite fair price, so I would like to use it. I think that 85hp would be enough? I also have 150cm (60") wooden prop, which might be a bit small, but later I could exchange it. The engine doesn't need any reduction drive. I am light weight, the aircraft will have no electric starter. -10kg What I am also planning to do is to choose a better modern wing profile. Originaly I thought that Clark Y would be the best option, but also ribblet GA30U-613.5 was recommended to me. Could I ask you for help, comments or advices, please? Thank you :) Vaclav Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419246#419246 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:19 AM PST US From: larharris2 Harris Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Vasek's Pietenpol project Vaclav=2C welcome. You will enjoy building the Pietenpol. Advice: DO NOT redesign the wing. Bernard Pietenpol designed the best win g for this airplane. In the past=2C changes have made performance worse. DO NOT use VW engine. RPM must be too high to get HP. Propeller will be too small. Bad performance on takeoff=2C or bad performance while in the air. Follow the plans design as well as you can and you will build a very good p lane. Lorenzo > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vasek's Pietenpol project > From: bigon2@seznam.cz > Date: Mon=2C 24 Feb 2014 09:31:38 -0800 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Hello=2C > > Recently I decided to build a Pietenpol=2C but before I start=2C I would like to ask you and discuss the possibilities I have. I am in the Czech Rep ublic (central europe). > > I am a young amateur aircraft technician=2C pilot=2C producer of historic aircraft propellers and still a student. But mainly=2C I am a big fan of a viation. > > At the moment I have an engine (VW 2500 85hp) and metal-tube construction of the fuselage + tail surfaces available. My plan is to build a beautiful airplane=2C which will look very similar to the original aircraft from twe nties/thirties. My friend is a skilled aircraft builder and constructor=2C who guaranties me that the aircraft will be safe=2C will fly and will provi de me all information concerning the construction. > > The engine I propose is available for a quite fair price=2C so I would li ke to use it. I think that 85hp would be enough? I also have 150cm (60") wo oden prop=2C which might be a bit small=2C but later I could exchange it. T he engine doesn't need any reduction drive. > > I am light weight=2C the aircraft will have no electric starter. -10kg > > What I am also planning to do is to choose a better modern wing profile. Originaly I thought that Clark Y would be the best option=2C but also ribbl et GA30U-613.5 was recommended to me. > > Could I ask you for help=2C comments or advices=2C please? > > Thank you :) > > Vaclav > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419246#419246 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire From: "taildrags" John, Jack- I certainly have a safety wire tool, yes. What I have found is that in many places it's not real easy to spin the tool or even to get a proper grasp of the wire, and of course it does you no good on turnbuckles. I mostly work the wire by hand. I was just sounding off a little because I had more than the usual amount of safetying to do over the weekend and since I take baby aspirin as part of a blood thinning regimen with the hypertension meds that I take, when I get a cut or puncture it just makes a bit of a mess for awhile till I get the blood stopped. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419250#419250 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire From: Ken Bickers Oscar, it is all in how you look at it. Once you get poked by safety wire, you're better off doing lots more safetying. That way, you bleed just once. Its the airplane equivalent of the all-you-can-eat buffet, Once you've paid, by god you may as well get your money's worth -- no matter how distasteful. Plus, it keeps all your safety wire color coordinated. Cheers, Ken On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 11:15 AM, taildrags wrote: > > John, Jack- > > I certainly have a safety wire tool, yes. What I have found is that in > many places it's not real easy to spin the tool or even to get a proper > grasp of the wire, and of course it does you no good on turnbuckles. I > mostly work the wire by hand. > > I was just sounding off a little because I had more than the usual amount > of safetying to do over the weekend and since I take baby aspirin as part > of a blood thinning regimen with the hypertension meds that I take, when I > get a cut or puncture it just makes a bit of a mess for awhile till I get > the blood stopped. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419250#419250 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: VW engines in Pietenpols From: "Bill Church" Recently there have been a couple of questions raised regarding the suitability of VW engines in Pietenpol aircraft. Following is an article written by Pietenpol builder Brian Kenney, and published in the BPA newsletter in 1996. Food for thought. Why a VW "Beetle" engine is not a good choice in a Pietenpol! A Volkswagen "Bug" engine and its derivatives can produce enough horsepower to fly a Pietenpol Air Camper. This alone is not enough of a reason to select it as a Pietenpol engine. This is why: The efficiency of a propeller (irrespective of how well it is designed)is a function of the difference between the speed of the airplane and the speed of the propeller wash. As the speed of the prop wash approaches the speed of the airplane, the propeller approaches 100% of theoretical efficiency. At the same time, thrust is caused by the propeller throwing air backwards. The faster the air, the more the thrust. As the air speed approaches the speed of the airplane the thrust goes to zero! At zero forward speed the thrust is maximum. Put these two together and you see you can't have both at once. If the airplane is not moving it has a lot of thrust, its efficiency is zero--it is doing no work. As the airplane accelerates, the work (force times distance) and the efficiency increases but the thrust decreases. In the case of a zero drag airplane the airplane can accelerate until it reaches the thrust speed. There is zero thrust and the propeller is approaching 100% efficiency. Since most aircraft don't have zero drag (especially Pietenpols!), the airplane comes to equilibrium somewhere between the two extremes. In the case of a Piet with a large propeller and a slow turning engine, it is when the propeller is at about 75% efficiency. You can not get better than that unless you clean up the drag. One variable you can adjust in a propeller, that has an effect on efficiency, is the propeller diameter. The bigger the propeller the more air it can push backwards. Therefore for a given propeller wash speed there is more thrust. Or another way to look at it; for a required thrust, a bigger propeller needs less wash speed. Therefore, if you remember about efficiency, there is more efficiency because for a given thrust the velocity of the propeller wash is less. Diameter also effects pitch. The larger the diameter, the less pitch you need (the air can move slower). This effects the speed range of the aircraft. A large propeller is like having a car with one low gear. A small propeller is like having one high gear. If you have a slow airplane, a low gear can work fine, in a fast airplane, it won't work because the engine will not produce any power to get going (fast airplanes always have surplus horsepower). The relationship for best propeller efficiency has been determined to be that the propeller tip speed should be approximately 2.3 times the aircraft speed at cruise. This you can't achieve. The diameter is too large or the rpm is too slow. The bigger the diameter and the slower the engine the better. This is why World War One aircraft perform so well (best propeller efficiency) on low power - 1400 rpm engines turning 80" propellers.. Because our engine choices require more revs to produce power, we have to compromise and lose efficiency. A Piet with a 72" propeller, 2300 max. rpm and 65 horsepower is the typical compromise with a Continental engine, but a Model "A" with 55 horsepower will do about the same. Unfortunately, to retain reliability, Model "A's" are usually built to produce 50 horsepower - or a bit less. The Corvair engine is another compromise. They have a loss of efficiency due to the small diameter propeller and accelerate poorly (due to the tall gear effect) but produces good power. So how does this relate to a VW engine? In order to use a Volkswagen engine, it has to really rev (over 3300 rpm) to produce sufficient power. This requires a small propeller to keep the tip speeds down. It therefore has poor efficiency, or a too "tall" gear. If you pitch it so you can take off, you won't fly faster than about 50 mph. If you pitch it for cruise you will need a 6000 ft strip for take-off! The Corvair works because it has surplus horsepower and can afford to waste some. The VW can't afford the wasted horsepower. The only approach with a VW that will work is the one that Pazmany used on his PL-4. It uses a reduction belt. You then need a starter, and alternator, wiring etc. You also need to think about cooling. At 60 mph there is not much ram air. The Corvair requires a blower to get proper cooling. If you go this route you have two projects instead of one! In Pazmany's configuration, the installation probably weighs enough to allow an acceptable C.G. If not, this is your second major problem. If you solve these problems, get used to an engine revving like crazy, making much noise, as you cruise along. Aircraft are a compromise. In a slow airplane you must use a large displacement, slow turning engine if you want to keep it simple! How about a diesel? Someone in the 1970's put a Mercedes diesel in a Pietenpol. They brought it to Oshkosh and created a lot of interest. The problem was it didn't have enough power. The engine was replaced with something else and it flew OK. The limitation with diesel engines is their power-to-weight ratio. They tend to be heavy for the power they produce. The VW diesel engine is not that heavy, but I don't think that it will produce enough power. You need about 50 hp to fly an Air Camper - a bit less to fly the Sky Scout. You need this type of power at no more than about 2500 rpm. This is why a VW beetle engine is no good - because you have to rev it too high to obtain the needed power. The other factors to consider in the over-all weight of a VW Diesel, is that you will probably need a gear reduction unit, and if you use a gear reduction unit, you will also need a starter. Water in the cooling system weighs 10 lbs. a gallon etc. I am sure you will be over 250 lbs. when you are finished. Fuel is also an issue. You could use Jet A, but how will you get that big hose nozzle in your Pietenpol filler tube? I am not trying to discourage anyone from developing a new airplane design. Just think about it long and hard before you try it. I think building an airplane it enough of a project. Building an engine is another complete project. I know someone who has been putting an auto engine in a flying airplane and is now in his fifth year in doing so! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419254#419254 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:56 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Vasek's Pietenpol project Hi Vaclav, Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols! You have already been given some good advice. Bernard Pietenpol himself experimented with the Clark Y and found it did not perform as well as his airfoil. Recently a number of Pietenpols have been built with some of the Riblett airfoils. Tests comparing the Riblett to the Pietenpol airfoil on two nearly identical airplanes showed the Riblett offered no significant advantage over the original Pietenpol airfoil. Besides, the original airfoil, with its sharp leading edge and undercamber looks more like a 1920's airplane, and you have stated that one of your goals is to " build a beautiful airplane, which will look very similar to the original aircraft from twenties/thirties." As for the engine, a number of people have tried Volkswagen engines in the Pietenpol without success. The Pietenpol is a slow, draggy airplane and needs an engine that puts out a lot of torque. As I'm writing this I see that Bill Church has just responded with a good explanation of why a VW is not a good engine choice for this airplane. How about a LOM Mikro? Those should be relatively plentiful in the Czech Republic. Anyway, good luck to you. If possible, you should try to come to Brodhead and Oshkosh some summer to see as many Pietenpols as possible. They are all different, but each can teach you something. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vasek Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 12:32 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Vasek's Pietenpol project Hello, Recently I decided to build a Pietenpol, but before I start, I would like to ask you and discuss the possibilities I have. I am in the Czech Republic (central europe). I am a young amateur aircraft technician, pilot, producer of historic aircraft propellers and still a student. But mainly, I am a big fan of aviation. At the moment I have an engine (VW 2500 85hp) and metal-tube construction of the fuselage + tail surfaces available. My plan is to build a beautiful airplane, which will look very similar to the original aircraft from twenties/thirties. My friend is a skilled aircraft builder and constructor, who guaranties me that the aircraft will be safe, will fly and will provide me all information concerning the construction. The engine I propose is available for a quite fair price, so I would like to use it. I think that 85hp would be enough? I also have 150cm (60") wooden prop, which might be a bit small, but later I could exchange it. The engine doesn't need any reduction drive. I am light weight, the aircraft will have no electric starter. -10kg What I am also planning to do is to choose a better modern wing profile. Originaly I thought that Clark Y would be the best option, but also ribblet GA30U-613.5 was recommended to me. Could I ask you for help, comments or advices, please? Thank you :) Vaclav Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419246#419246 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:48 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project From: "Vasek" Thank you for your advices Jack and Lorenzo. I already changed my mind with the VW engine, after I got a clear explanation about the torque, and after reading the Bill Church's article. It would result in many complications which do not worth it.. There might be some Microns available here, I will see. Another option is now another automobile engine with a reduction drive. I could use a Suzuki engine. I will see. Now I can build the aircraft and watch for offers in shops, used engines. I will use the original Pietenpol airfoil. As for the meeting in Brodhead/Oshkosh, you want me to try the first trans-atlantic flight with a Pietenpol? :D -------- My production of WW1 propellers, trophies and constructions: Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419261#419261 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:48 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New E-mail address From: "jarheadpilot82" Chuck, So 1924 is your address, right? :D -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419267#419267 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:30 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire .041 for turnbuckles and prop bolts, always.- I did see a neat way to saf ety turnbuckles that Boieng uses, but I can not remember the method.- I s aw it in an AMT Skills competition I got to attend a few years back on a mo ck-up of a control system.- It twists the wire like you would when safety wiring a bolt.- I also saw an RV-4 that was saftied that way a couple ye ars ago.- Any Boieng mechanics on the list??.=0A=0AShad=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Mon day, February 24, 2014 2:12 PM, Ken Bickers wrote: =0A =0AOscar, it is all in how you look at it. -Once you get poked by sa fety wire, you're better off doing lots more safetying. -That way, you bl eed just once. -Its the airplane equivalent of the all-you-can-eat buffet , -Once you've paid, by god you may as well get your money's worth -- no matter how distasteful. -Plus, it keeps all your safety wire color coordi nated.-=0A=0ACheers, Ken=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 11:15 AM, tai ldrags wrote:=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message poste d by: "taildrags" =0A>=0A>John, Jack-=0A>=0A>I certa inly have a safety wire tool, yes. -What I have found is that in many pla ces it's not real easy to spin the tool or even to get a proper grasp of th e wire, and of course it does you no good on turnbuckles. -I mostly work the wire by hand.=0A>=0A>I was just sounding off a little because I had mor e than the usual amount of safetying to do over the weekend and since I tak e baby aspirin as part of a blood thinning regimen with the hypertension me ds that I take, when I get a cut or puncture it just makes a bit of a mess for awhile till I get the blood stopped.=0A>=0A>--------=0A>Oscar Zuniga=0A >Medford, OR=0A>Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"=0A>A75 power=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>R ead this topic online here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.ph p?p=419250#419250=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>======== ====0A>st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piete npol-List=0A>============0A>http://forums.matronics.c om=0A>============0A>le, List Admin.=0A>="_blank">h ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A>=========== ======================= ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:45 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newsletter From: Gary Boothe As expected, it took a little longer to get over the Sierra's, and arrived today!...well worth the wait! Nicely done, John! Happy Birthday! Gary NX308MB Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:53 PM PST US From: "Boatright, Jeffrey" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Newsletter Boy, I am really feeling left out down here in Georgia. I even showered this week! And wore shoes on Sunday! Maybe I forgot to re-up my membership? ;) -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine On 2/24/14 6:23 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > >As expected, it took a little longer to get over the Sierra's, and >arrived today!...well worth the wait! > >Nicely done, John! Happy Birthday! > >Gary >NX308MB > ________________________________ This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments). ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:26 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Newsletter I still haven't received my newsletter. Who is this John Hofmann, anyway? Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 6:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newsletter As expected, it took a little longer to get over the Sierra's, and arrived today!...well worth the wait! Nicely done, John! Happy Birthday! Gary NX308MB Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:57 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: : Newsletter I still haven't received my newsletter. Who is this John Hofmann, anyway? Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia Jack-I heard he is a former pencil salesman. He's friends with Jim Hyde I think too. I don't think he flew for Braniff tho..... ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Newsletter From: airlion2@gmail.com Jeffery, I have not gotten my newsletter either. Gardiner Sent from my iPad > On Feb 24, 2014, at 6:28 PM, "Boatright, Jeffrey" wrote: > > > Boy, I am really feeling left out down here in Georgia. I even showered > this week! And wore shoes on Sunday! > > Maybe I forgot to re-up my membership? ;) > > -- > > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO > Associate Professor of Ophthalmology > Emory University School of Medicine > > > > >> On 2/24/14 6:23 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: >> >> >> As expected, it took a little longer to get over the Sierra's, and >> arrived today!...well worth the wait! >> >> Nicely done, John! Happy Birthday! >> >> Gary >> NX308MB >> > > > ________________________________ > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: corvair acceleration From: "nightmare" Hey guys . Just curious. Will be using A corvair motor and after Reading the occasional post that Talks of larger props better for draggy piets. And how the corvair will accelerate slower with smaller prop. How does a 100 hp corvair really perform against let's say a 85 he cont. ? Acceleration on takeoff and climb. I know tough question to get hard evidence because no two piets built alike. Maybe simple opinions on observations from the Brodhead fly in. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419279#419279 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair acceleration From: "taildrags" Paul; I can only relate my own experience, and here it is. I left a fly-in on a nice mild sunny afternoon in Texas, field elevation maybe 600'MSL. I was not at gross, maybe half fuel, but two aboard. My airplane has a fresh A75. We were just about leveled off at our cruise altitude of maybe 2500-3000' headed home when out of nowhere from behind us comes "Axel" Purtee in his Corvair-powered Piet, also two aboard, and formed up on our wing for photos. Mind you, we had about a 10 minute head start and he had caught up with us. After the photos he firewalled it and walked away. His "Fat Bottomed Girl" weighed more than my airplane. The Corvair is a very competent engine for the Air Camper. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419280#419280 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:23 PM PST US From: "Boatright, Jeffrey" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: corvair acceleration Fastest Piet I ever saw was Vandervoort's, which was powered by the original-style, Bernard Pietenpol version of a Corvair version. Didn't seem to have any problem getting Vandervoort up into the blue, either, and he was not tiny. -- Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine On 2/24/14 7:27 PM, "taildrags" wrote: > >Paul; > >I can only relate my own experience, and here it is. I left a fly-in on >a nice mild sunny afternoon in Texas, field elevation maybe 600'MSL. I >was not at gross, maybe half fuel, but two aboard. My airplane has a >fresh A75. We were just about leveled off at our cruise altitude of >maybe 2500-3000' headed home when out of nowhere from behind us comes >"Axel" Purtee in his Corvair-powered Piet, also two aboard, and formed up >on our wing for photos. Mind you, we had about a 10 minute head start >and he had caught up with us. After the photos he firewalled it and >walked away. His "Fat Bottomed Girl" weighed more than my airplane. The >Corvair is a very competent engine for the Air Camper. > >-------- >Oscar Zuniga >Medford, OR >Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" >A75 power > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419280#419280 > > ________________________________ This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the original message (including attachments). ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Vasek's Pietenpol project From: "aviken" First Trans Atlantic flight in a Pietenpol, Ha Ha I know now that you will be a true Pietenpol builder, because you need a good sense of humor. I hope you have as much fun as I am in building this great little bird. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419286#419286 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:59 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: corvair acceleration I am flying a corvair piet, but can not answer your question, our piet doesn't have a rearview mirror. HA HA HA. Actually I can't answer because of the 2 Piets I have flown, they were both Corvairs, and I have nothing to compare them against. I do know I get 78-80MPH cruise at about 5.5 GPH, and just eye balling etimate the corvair piets seem to outclimb the 65HP cont powered ships (when watching from the grouond at Brodhead). I was offered a chance to fly Jack Phillip's piet last year at Brodhead but due to the weather I had a narrow window to get out ahead of the storms, hope I can get a rain check on that Jack. I think a Continental makes a fine choice, as does the Ford or Corvair. In reality if you build the engine yourself I think an "airworthy" mill of any of the 3 Brands will be in the same ballpark moneywise, within $1000 or so. But in defense of the Continentals, they are damn near bullet proof, no modification necessary and designed to pull an airplane which the Pietenpol is. Just my $0.02 Shad -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 2/24/14, nightmare wrote: Subject: Pietenpol-List: corvair acceleration To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, February 24, 2014, 7:16 PM --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "nightmare" Hey guys . Just curious. Will be using A corvair motor and after Reading the occasional post that Talks of larger props better for draggy piets. And how the corvair will accelerate slower with smaller prop. How does a 100 hp corvair really perform against let's say a 85 he cont. ? Acceleration on takeoff and climb. I know tough question to get hard evidence because no two piets built alike. Maybe simple opinions on observations from the Brodhead fly in. -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419279#419279 Email Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: safety wire From: "Braniff1966" my plans have nothing about safety wire. my ac 43-13 is full of data on when and how to use it. I never waste time thinking about stuff that has already been decided by very smart people. its all simple to me just do what the book says and don't waste valuable time thinking. at 70 I have learned that time is short...the best part about building a piet is that its a proven design. just follow the plans, use the wood recommended in the AC, same for hardware, fabric and paint. I will admit that I spent about 30 min deciding on the best glue for me. I will assure any builder that makes changes will fuck up a very good design. one thing that I learned in my 55 years in aviation leave the thinking to others. most of us are not properly equipped to be thinking. jim hyde Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419289#419289 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: fish scales From: "taildrags" OK, so in another couple of weeks I'll be starting to think about having Scout do the thrust test with the official fish scales. Not in any hurry though. Who has the scales and how do I go about getting in the mailing queue to try them out? -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419297#419297 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: fish scales From: Brian Kenney Static thrust tests are really a waste of time. As static thrust is a force and nothing is moving there is no work being done. Static thrust is generally proportional to the diameter of the propeller. The twist effects it if there is part of the blade stalled but little of this matters until you are near climb speed. So don't bother unless you are comparing one propeller to two different motors and then rpm is more important anyway. Brian Kenney Sent from my iPad > On Feb 25, 2014, at 4:34 PM, "taildrags" wrote: > > > OK, so in another couple of weeks I'll be starting to think about having Scout do the thrust test with the official fish scales. Not in any hurry though. Who has the scales and how do I go about getting in the mailing queue to try them out? > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=419297#419297 > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.