---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/22/14: 44 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:46 AM - verbosity (Lawrence Williams) 2. 06:33 AM - Re: CG vs Wheels Location (Brian Kenney) 3. 06:52 AM - Re: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (danhelsper@aol.com) 4. 07:10 AM - Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (Don Emch) 5. 07:16 AM - W&B, Axle Loc., Cabanes and fuel lines (William Wynne) 6. 07:48 AM - A Couple of Welding Questions (jarheadpilot82) 7. 07:53 AM - Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (William Wynne) 8. 08:08 AM - Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (jarheadpilot82) 9. 08:31 AM - Re: W&B, Axle Loc., Cabanes and fuel lines (Gary Boothe) 10. 08:31 AM - cable guides (nightmare) 11. 08:38 AM - Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (Don Emch) 12. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (Rick) 13. 08:55 AM - Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (tkreiner) 14. 08:56 AM - Fw: Motor mount fittings (goffelectric@comcast.net) 15. 09:14 AM - Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (tools) 16. 09:24 AM - Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (jarheadpilot82) 17. 09:34 AM - Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (tools) 18. 09:45 AM - Re: cable guides (dgaldrich) 19. 09:51 AM - Cross strut size (john francis) 20. 10:00 AM - W&B Spreadsheet (was CG vs Wheel Location..emergency situation) (Jack Phillips) 21. 10:11 AM - Re: Fw: Motor mount fittings (Jack Phillips) 22. 10:20 AM - Re: Cross strut size (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 23. 10:27 AM - Re: Cross strut size (john francis) 24. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (Dick N) 25. 10:53 AM - Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (tools) 26. 11:12 AM - Re: Cross strut size (curtdm(at)gmail.com) 27. 12:21 PM - Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia (Don Emch) 28. 12:26 PM - Re: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia (Don Emch) 29. 01:12 PM - Re: Fw: Motor mount fittings (Goff Electric) 30. 02:30 PM - Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (tkreiner) 31. 02:34 PM - Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (jarheadpilot82) 32. 02:35 PM - Re: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia (airlion2@gmail.com) 33. 02:53 PM - Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (tools) 34. 03:08 PM - Re: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia (Don Emch) 35. 03:10 PM - Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (jarheadpilot82) 36. 03:30 PM - Re: Re: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia (airlion2@gmail.com) 37. 03:40 PM - Re: Re: CG vs Wheels Location (Michael Perez) 38. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions (glenschweizer@yahoo.com) 39. 06:21 PM - Re: running lean (taildrags) 40. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: CG vs Wheels Location (Ryan Mueller) 41. 07:24 PM - Motor mount fittings (santiago morete) 42. 07:46 PM - Re: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (Greg Cardinal) 43. 08:21 PM - Re: Re: running lean (jim hyde) 44. 09:43 PM - Re: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation (Ray Krause) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:54 AM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: verbosity since the list has degenerated from Piet building to favorite books, one of my favorite books has a quote that I have used only sparingly but seems to fit here: "It is not advisable, James to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener." My hand is just now hovering over my quiver...... L. Williams Abominable slowman and semi-retired Top Curmudgeon ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:04 AM PST US From: Brian Kenney Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: CG vs Wheels Location This is not a simple problem and it is hard to give correct advice and it i s the classic example that everything is compromise. The following are variables that effect the gear position. If you are wonde r "what the heck: then I will give an example of why some of these are impo rtant. VARIABLES the empty c.g. the loaded c.g. the expected c.g range the fuel placement the maximum weight of the pilot=2C the minimum weight of the pilot the assumed wing position=2C the final wing position the strength of the brakes the diameter of the wheels the total height of the c.g above the ground. WHAT THE VARIABLES EFFECT The weight on the tail when empty whether the tail will stay down while empty in a wind the strength of the tail wheel spring and structure the ability to stop with brakes the ability to hold the aircraft on run up the overturn tendency with brakes the directional stability (ground looping tendency) the tendency for the tail to drop hard on landing (if not three pointed) the tendency to porpoise the ground handling what the government says about c.g. Here is an example - I will use my example so not to offend anyone. My aircraft has wooden gear=2C motorcycle wheels with brakes =2C and perpen dicular cabanes. It is an improved fuselage from the 1933 plans and the sto ck 1931 wooden gear. The fuel is behind the firewall. I am happy with arrangement but it has limitations and it could easily crit icized as wrong=2C but being wrong has some advantages. As built my airplane has the following advantages -the load on the tail is very light and the structure is light helping the aft c.g. tendency - the gear is back in comparison to many giving improved handling and stabi lity on landing this means the tail is not forcefully driven down if you land hard . -the tail comes up very easily on the take off roll. -it has had thousands of landings over 27 years and it has never been damag ed in a landing incident. This aircraft is not squirrelly at all the large wheels reduce rolling resistance=2C and reduces takeoff distance. - large wheels move the contact point of the wheels in the three point atti tude to the rear making it more directional stable. -the fuel in the fuselage reduces the weight transfer back to the tail as t he tail drops in comparison to fuel in the wing. My gear position has the following disadvantages -If I had stronger brakes it would be a danger to flip over - I am very hap py with my brakes however - they won't hold on a runup buy I don't think th at would be a good idea anyway. -my tail is so light when empty that if you lift the tail past horizontal t he airplane will fall on its nose - never has=2C but don't lose hold -I operate at and around the aft cg limit. If I were to put weight on the n ose to make the recommended c.g. limits for aircraft built in Canada=2C I could not get out of the aircraft as it would fall on its nose. Where I ope rate the c.g. is as recommended for a Pietenpol and there is not a problem. It may improve the climb performance. -As I age and get heavier the c.g. is getting more aft and adding weight to the nose would make the gear position worse in the rear direction - it is not really a problem and I can have full fuel and a metal prop instead of a wood one. I really added this to show how the pilot max weight effects the setup. -if a very light pilot used my brakes very hard the tail would come up far easier Remember too that many Piets end up with aft cgs and they move the wing bac k once built. This moves the wheels forward. Best laid plans quickly change . One of my favourite saying is - you can be good or you can be lucky but it is always best to be lucky. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: danhelsper@aol.com Yesterday I got an emergency call from the great T.C. emeritus while wander ing on a remote desert path. I hadn't looked at the list in a few days....Y IKES! All the oxygen is being sucked out of the room. I am glad it wasn't like this when I was first building. I would have given up, eyes completely glazed over. I though y'all were building an old airplane from a set of old plans. Dan Helsper Puryear, TN -----Original Message----- From: Don Emch Sent: Fri, Mar 21, 2014 7:51 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location Good grief! Please don't over complicate this! Either build the plane wit hout brakes and keep the gear as is or add brakes and move the axle an inch or t wo forward. It's really that simple!! Now go get your hack saw and light up your torch! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420811#420811 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: "Don Emch" Exactly Dan! I'm really starting to appreciate that fact that I built most of mine before the Internet was really up and running. It's such a simple and fun design. Just go build it and have fun!! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420821#420821 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: W&B, Axle Loc., Cabanes and fuel lines From: "William Wynne" Builders, There are only four things in Piet building I would like to make builders aware of, and let them choose to use if they wish: 1) I want to show people that it is easy to build and fly a Piet in the published 15 -20" CG range, even if the engine is as light as an A-40 or as heavy as an O-235, with pilot weights from 120-320 pounds. We did the testing, I will assist builders with the math, it doesn't cost any more nor take any more time to build a plane in CG. 2) I want builders to know that there are published locations for where to locate the axle with and without brakes, and data on this directly from BHP. You don't need to guess. This info is with the W&B articles. When building, it doesn't cost anything to put the axle in a better spot, nor take any more time. 3) I give examples of better ways of building the cabanes, making them more like BHP did in the 1960s rather than the 1930s. The original plane had one set of crossed wires and no diagonals. No one does that, I am only suggesting leap frogging the 1930s light diagonals to the stronger 1960s ones. Again, when building it doesn't take any more time nor cost more than $5 more in up sized tubing. 4) I would like builders to be aware that a hard aluminum fuel line, run from the tank to the firewall is likely to get severed, even in a very small accident. A better option is using a braided steel jacketed flex line. The material for this costs $20 more than the 5052 hard tubing. It is actually easier to make, and does not require flaring tools. ------------------------------------------------------ That is it, it is the sum total of my advice to Piet builders. Note that I am not telling anyone to take even another 5 hours to build a plane, and the money I am speaking of is $25, maybe 1/400th of the cost of building a low cost Piet. --------------------------------------------------- Please note: I don't tell people what engine to use, what airfoil, what kind of wheels, what cover their plane in, what color to paint it, how to paint it nor how nor where to fly it. I don't have an opinion on 'what is a real Piet' or any of that. It is very odd to me that a guy who tells people "who the plane is for" or what engine to use, or that some kinds of covering are 'wrong' is not perceived as telling people what to do, but the four points I bring up above, are sometimes perceived as "Telling people what kind of plane they have to build". I strongly hold that it is your plane, and you have a right to build it anyway you want. I don't even care if you follow the four ideas above. All I want is builders to be aware they exist, and the only people who I have heartburn over are the people who claim that the data doesn't exist, it is too much work to do correctly or it costs to much or somehow ruins the spirit of fun flying to fly in the CG range. Again, those people are trying to tell others what to do with their planes, I just want builders to understand and choose for themselves. --------------------------------------------------------- While some people hold that it is a "waste of time and money" to build a Pietenpol with any type of modification, or adaption or even things like brakes or electric start, It is my option that it is your time, and your money to waste. I don't like being told what to do with my time and money, I don't care what people choose to do with theirs. Operative word in the last paragraph is Choose. That implies that the builder got to read about the options, ask questions, hear about it and then picked for himself. The one thing I do think of as a colossal waste of money and time is building a plane that is just OK, and 'works' and then flying it to Brodhead and finding out that a guy who took the same time building his plane and spent $25 more, can fly with a pilot that weighs 75 pounds more, land slower, and fully use his brakes, and doesn't worry about a small mishap dislodging his wing or rupturing a fuel line. My point is that each builder can either choose to be the guy with the better plane or the guy looking at it. It is a fee world, take your pick.-ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420823#420823 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "jarheadpilot82" I have a couple of welding questions that I hope some of you can help me answer. Here is the situation - a friend of mine in my EAA Chapter has all of his now passed grandfather's tools (he was Mechanic at Delta Air Lines for over 35 years) My friend is building an RV-10 so he has little use for the welding equipment, so he has offered it to me. I have read some but have no one to really guide me on the following questions, so your help is appreciated. 1. The tanks have some level of Oxygen and Acetylene in them but the tanks have not been tested in who knows when (I have not really looked for the last date stamped onto them. Is it safe to use them ntl empty? Or should I take them in and swap them for other, newer, full tanks? 2. The hoses appear to be okay (no cracks), but I have not yet pressurized them and sprayed them with soapy water to check for any leaks. Should I just go ahead and buy new ones? I am guessing the hoses have been coiled up easily 6 or 8 years since last used. 3. The torch it self is a Smith and I have tip sizes 200, 203, and 205. I replaced the o-rings on the tips. Should I take the torches somewhere to have them inspected? Can they be rebuilt, if needed? 4. The regulator is the 2-stage type. Do I need to have them inspected as well? Can they be inspected and repaired if needed? Obviously, I am trying to ensure the equipment is in good working order before using them. Thanks for the advice. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420824#420824 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: "William Wynne" Dan, Here is a positive suggestion: What don't you, Don and Mike Cuy, who all have flying planes that you like, Take a few minutes to walk out to your planes, get the weight and balance form out and type it in here, do I can all it to the data base we have for planes. Please include your axle and tailwheel location, and your pilot weight. If you guys like your planes, then share the data with everyone and let them directly copy your set up if they choose to. Brian sent in a lot of data, but I need to know the weights to put it in the data base. Jack Phillips sent me an email saying his plane is actually in the CG range with his pilot weight and set up, It is useful to others to pick which path to follow if we can get it in the data set. If you don't like the numerical information, just ignore it. A new builder doesn't need to understand every line that Chris and Brian wrote in. I will do the math for them, it is not an issue, I know you guys as pilots can do weight and balance calculations, don't make it sound hard to new guys, it is a simple format with 6th grade math. I don't think flying around out of CG adds to the romance of flight, nor do I see how having a better fuel line ruins every sunset flight.-ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420825#420825 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: "jarheadpilot82" Dan, I would more refer to it as a breath of fresh air. I know that William doesn't need anyone to speak for him but I think putting safety and risk management as a priority is never a bad thing. And I think that that is all that William is trying to point out. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420826#420826 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:06 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: W&B, Axle Loc., Cabanes and fuel lines To some, the "sound" of WW's 'voice' must be like fingernails on a chalkboard! I note that the most experienced pilots, and the pilots who have flown their Piets for a long time are the most critical of his suggestions. Although, William doesn't currently fly a Piet, I know of no one, including Doc, who has paid a higher price to be part of this group! Interesting how his comments draw such ire and fire, while Chris Tracy's mathematical and historic recount of the same subject draw none. As Dad liked to say, "What's right is right...and everything else is wrong." I, for one, thought I was "just following plans", but being a poor study, I now realize that I made mistakes. All appear to come out, in the wash, but those mistakes are still there. Maybe I'll be 'lucky', as one lister suggests, but my early adventures in flying, some 40 years ago, tell me that I have already used up a lot of luck! My axle is not placed right, nor is the wheel base as wide as it should be. Those things remain 'post-it' notes on my desk...items to get to someday. I'll be flying this plane for a long time, I hope, and foresee other little projects. Building the gear the first time was not a big deal, and will be even easier the second time through, and I'm not going to try to say to anyone that it's OK, just because it hasn't caused a wreck yet. I wish this subject had come up a year or two before it did! To the 'old-timers' here, keep in mind that we don't all share your level of experience. You may find this hard to believe, but I find this airplane to be completely different than anything else I flew...T-craft, C-170, Aeronca Sedan, Mini-Cab Hawk. I have an A&P, rebuilt 2 antiques and had about 280 hrs when my Piet was finished...all ancient history. If I were still 20, and in the prime of my short flying experience, I have no doubt that my feelings about the plane would be different. There are some here who are just now learning to fly and have no tailwheel time at all... Some who have not experienced the sink rate when the throttle is closed...Some who are building for the first time...Some who have not felt the weight of a 200lb passenger...Some who have not had their first emergency landing... ...I think cautionary advise is appropriate. Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Wynne Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: W&B, Axle Loc., Cabanes and fuel lines --> Builders, There are only four things in Piet building I would like to make builders aware of, and let them choose to use if they wish: 1) I want to show people that it is easy to build and fly a Piet in the published 15 -20" CG range, even if the engine is as light as an A-40 or as heavy as an O-235, with pilot weights from 120-320 pounds. We did the testing, I will assist builders with the math, it doesn't cost any more nor take any more time to build a plane in CG. 2) I want builders to know that there are published locations for where to locate the axle with and without brakes, and data on this directly from BHP. You don't need to guess. This info is with the W&B articles. When building, it doesn't cost anything to put the axle in a better spot, nor take any more time. 3) I give examples of better ways of building the cabanes, making them more like BHP did in the 1960s rather than the 1930s. The original plane had one set of crossed wires and no diagonals. No one does that, I am only suggesting leap frogging the 1930s light diagonals to the stronger 1960s ones. Again, when building it doesn't take any more time nor cost more than $5 more in up sized tubing. 4) I would like builders to be aware that a hard aluminum fuel line, run from the tank to the firewall is likely to get severed, even in a very small accident. A better option is using a braided steel jacketed flex line. The material for this costs $20 more than the 5052 hard tubing. It is actually easier to make, and does not require flaring tools. ------------------------------------------------------ That is it, it is the sum total of my advice to Piet builders. Note that I am not telling anyone to take even another 5 hours to build a plane, and the money I am speaking of is $25, maybe 1/400th of the cost of building a low cost Piet. --------------------------------------------------- Please note: I don't tell people what engine to use, what airfoil, what kind of wheels, what cover their plane in, what color to paint it, how to paint it nor how nor where to fly it. I don't have an opinion on 'what is a real Piet' or any of that. It is very odd to me that a guy who tells people "who the plane is for" or what engine to use, or that some kinds of covering are 'wrong' is not perceived as telling people what to do, but the four points I bring up above, are sometimes perceived as "Telling people what kind of plane they have to build". I strongly hold that it is your plane, and you have a right to build it anyway you want. I don't even care if you follow the four ideas above. All I want is builders to be aware they exist, and the only people who I have heartburn over are the people who claim that the data doesn't exist, it is too much work to do correctly or it costs to much or somehow ruins the spirit of fun flying to fly in the CG range. Again, those people are trying to tell others what to do with their planes, I just want builders to understand and choose for themselves. --------------------------------------------------------- While some people hold that it is a "waste of time and money" to build a Pietenpol with any type of modification, or adaption or even things like brakes or electric start, It is my option that it is your time, and your money to waste. I don't like being told what to do with my time and money, I don't care what people choose to do with theirs. Operative word in the last paragraph is Choose. That implies that the builder got to read about the options, ask questions, hear about it and then picked for himself. The one thing I do think of as a colossal waste of money and time is building a plane that is just OK, and 'works' and then flying it to Brodhead and finding out that a guy who took the same time building his plane and spent $25 more, can fly with a pilot that weighs 75 pounds more, land slower, and fully use his brakes, and doesn't worry about a small mishap dislodging his wing or rupturing a fuel line. My point is that each builder can either choose to be the guy with the better plane or the guy looking at it. It is a fee world, take your pick.-ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420823#420823 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: cable guides From: "nightmare" Was hoping to see options for rudder cable guides towards tail of plane. With steel tube fuselage will need to weld a couple of tabs to accept a pulley, hardwood guide, phenolic tube or sheet or whatever. What is common practice? If there is such a thing.[/i] -------- Paul Donahue Started 8-3-12 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420827#420827 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:25 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: "Don Emch" William, I think that's a great idea. I think it would be very helpful for builders to get an idea of what a certain set up may look like when it comes to Weight and Balance time. This afternoon I will try to scan my W&B sheet I made up for my Pilot's Manual and post it. It's nothing fancy and hand drawn, so no laughing! :-) Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420830#420830 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: Rick Don, Would you include your fuselage length, wing LE position and axle location? This information would be much appreciated. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN Sent from my iPad On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:38 AM, "Don Emch" wrote: > > William, > > I think that's a great idea. I think it would be very helpful for builders to get an idea of what a certain set up may look like when it comes to Weight and Balance time. This afternoon I will try to scan my W&B sheet I made up for my Pilot's Manual and post it. It's nothing fancy and hand drawn, so no laughing! :-) > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420830#420830 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:21 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "tkreiner" Terry, I just went over most of your questions with my EAA chapter here in the Houston area; where were you? Never mind... Since we don't know the vintage of your Smith torch, perhaps you should take it to your local welding supply house, and have them take a look. If the torch mixes gases within the handle - and not inside the tip itself - crush it in a vise and start anew with a torch that only mixes in the tip. Why, you ask? My best childhood friend lost a portion of his hand when a Smith torch from the 60's blew up while holding it - and it took him 2 years to regain 75% use of the hand... Assuming it's a tip - mixer, add check valves between the hoses and the torch handle - they are about $20 ea. and will prevent gases from mixing within the hoses and/or regulators. Due to the ability of oil to migrate into anything and everything, and the possibility of Oxygen and oil creating an explosion, everything on the torch should be washed down with fresh clean Acetone. Lowe's has it for cheap. If I were you, perhaps I'd even investigate having a pro clean the entire system for me. You haven't stated the size of your tanks, and there are numerous sizes available. If they are the really large ones (can't remember the size) there could be a demurrage charge against them without receipts stating ownership. Check into that when you go to a welding supply house. Generally, I tell my students and EAA guys that it's a lot cheaper to take the tanks and refill them prior to expiration of certification than to get stuck spending an extra $35 per tank to re-cert. So, know the date of your tanks and act accordingly. Even if you throw away $20 in a full tank of gas, you're better off than spending more to re-cert, and re-fill. Just my $.02 and 40 years of experience... -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420833#420833 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:39 AM PST US From: goffelectric@comcast.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Motor mount fittings Guys, =C2- It will be awhile before I need to cover but I would like to know how every one covered this area around the motor mount brackets. The strips on each s ide of the bracket is 1/4" tall so it seems like it would be hard to make t he fabric around the bracket look good. Do you glue a piece of 1/4"=C2- w ood around the top on the bracket to keep it on the same level? =C2- Thanks, Keith Goff =C2- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Goff Electric" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:48:37 AM Subject: Motor mount fittings [image/jpeg:photo 1.JPG] [image/jpeg:photo 2.JPG] Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "tools" You can use the bottles till empty safely. It's a matter of economics whether it's a good idea or not, not safety. Some places will charge you a prorate on the hydro cert date anyway, so no real reason to not use till empty even if it will put you past the cert date. Welding suppliers and user owned bottles is REALLY a random game. The hoses are sort of nebulous. I've got OLD hoses that are still great, though a little bit checked. I've got NEW ones that SUCK. Cracked BADLY and I threw them away months after I got them. If you do decide they need replacement, get the best american made ones you can find. The chinese ones just don't last at all. GREAT advice on the treatment of the torch and regulators. By the way, the regulators are probably good and USUALLY ARE rebuildable and preferrable to, again, imported ones. Most good welding suppliers will take them and forward to their local rebuilder. I think Victors and Smiths have a lifetime warranty, which means stuff that is now obsolete will get you half off retail at a place that honors the warranty. Half off retail is usually a tad cheaper than you can find online and helps your local supplier. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420835#420835 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "jarheadpilot82" Tom, Are the tips interchangeable, or do I need new ones as well if it is the type you mentioned? Thanks again for your advice. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420836#420836 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:44 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: "tools" I don't have all the exact data here, but hopefully somewhat useful. NX2RN, built by Dick N, is a short wood fuse, wing moved back 4 1/2 inches, A65 plane. The WB sheet he did showed the CG calculated at around 19.5 inches, with him in the plane, he's maybe 10 or 20 lbs heavier than I. So I flew it without checking. However, when it came time to teach my son to fly it, wasn't sure if it would be in balance with him being 50 plus pounds lighter than I. So I got GOOD digital race car scales, blocked the plane up level and checked it all empirically, ie with us in the plane to be sure. Turns out it was 19 inches with me, about 17.5 with Scott and VERY suprisingly 16.5 inches with ME in the FRONT cockpit. In other words, it showed to be safe soloing from the front! I really thought the plane was more finicky than it turned out to be. Though it's not real stable (ie doesn't return to original position after an upset - gust of wind, control input, etc - quickly), it does fly well and predictably. Not an incredibly easy plane to learn to fly, it does handle a variety of conditions well. Certainly handles more conditions than really needed, it's a fun fly plane, not a reliable get you there plane. It requires more headwork than pilot skills. I think it's best to NOT have trim in this plane, as you can't afford to not be constantly thinking about the condition of flight. It is a little like a jet, predictable and fundamentally easy. If you find yourself in a bad situation, the decision that got you there was (comparatively) long ago and you missed it. You do really have to be ahead of this plane to fly it safely. Wouldn't think that is the case at 60 mph... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420837#420837 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: cable guides From: "dgaldrich" Your choices are fairleads or pulleys. AC43-13 limits fairleads to an angle change that I don't have at my fingertips but it's like 3 or 5 degrees. Pulleys for anything else. AC 43-13 is not regulatory for homebuilts BUT it's where Mike's Uncle Tony got a LOT of his information and those who blatantly disregard it should rethink their life insurance options. Fairleads can be built from almost any material that won't abrade the cables. Hardwoods and plastic lead the choices. The easiest would be to call up your favorite supply store and ask for Piper Cub split plastic ones. They are easily replaced, pretty slippery, a bolt-on mount (like an Adel clamp without the rubber cushion -- a plus for tab mounting) is available, and have a proven record of working well with cables. I'm using them for the aileron cables within the wings and the rudder cables within the fuselage. They're a little pricey but ease of maintenance wins the battle. Dave Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420839#420839 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:28 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cross strut size From: "john francis" Can anyone tell me what size the cross struts are that are attached to the stiffeners? John -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420840#420840 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/crossstruts_113.jpg ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:48 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: Pietenpol-List: W&B Spreadsheet (was CG vs Wheel Location..emergency situation) Pieters, If I can get a couple of hours, I will post the Excel spreadsheet that I made for calculating W&B on my Pietenpol. I'll need to modify it so that each builder can input the "constants" of their airplane (Fuselage length, wing position, etc), but once it is ready, people will be able to just plug in their data and calculate the CG easily, as well as see the effects of passenger weight, pilot weight, baggage compartment loading (if any) and fuel burn. William Wynne and I have had a few emails discussing such. As Gary Boothe said, William is raising good points and taking a lot of flak for it. Every pilot is supposed to know how to calculate weight & balance, and how to use the W&B envelope provided with any certificated airplane to determine whether or not their situation is inside the envelope. In my experience as an instructor, few remember how (if they ever knew once they passed their private pilot checkride). It is one of the things I do whenever I give a Biennial Flight Review (BFR) - I tell the pilot we are going to take his airplane, load the two of us, two friends of 210 and 165 lbs, and 100 lbs of luggage on a 600 mile trip in the winter (heavier clothes) and ask him how many fuel stops we'll need to make. If he doesn't start with the W&B envelope we spend quite a bit of time on that before we ever get in the airplane. There are a lot of people now building Pietenpols that are not yet licensed pilots, and have never had to develop proficiency in determining weight & balance, nor do they necessarily understand why it is so critical. An airplane with a center of gravity too far aft is simply uncontrollable, no matter how skilled the pilot. You older hands (particularly those with flying Pietenpols) don't need this information as much, but it never hurts to review it. I'll try to get that spreadsheet done in the next day or two. Of course, then I'll have to figure out how to post a spreadsheet on Matronics, or some kind of dropbox where people can download it. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation Don, Would you include your fuselage length, wing LE position and axle location? This information would be much appreciated. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN Sent from my iPad On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:38 AM, "Don Emch" wrote: > > William, > > I think that's a great idea. I think it would be very helpful for builders to get an idea of what a certain set up may look like when it comes to Weight and Balance time. This afternoon I will try to scan my W&B sheet I made up for my Pilot's Manual and post it. It's nothing fancy and hand drawn, so no laughing! :-) > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420830#420830 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:22 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Motor mount fittings Keith, I modified the wooden strip that holds the fabric off the plywood to fit over and around the engine mount brackets as shown below: When the fabric went on, you could net tell where the engine mount bolts were, as shown below: Just make sure that you cover the bolt heads (and anything elese that the fabric might chafe against) with pinked edge tape or a pinked edge patch to protect the fabric. It's amazing to long alonside the fuselage in flight and see how much drumming takes place with the fabric. If left unreinforced, any chafing will quickly wear holes right through it. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of goffelectric@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:56 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Motor mount fittings Guys, It will be awhile before I need to cover but I would like to know how everyone covered this area around the motor mount brackets. The strips on each side of the bracket is 1/4" tall so it seems like it would be hard to make the fabric around the bracket look good. Do you glue a piece of 1/4" wood around the top on the bracket to keep it on the same level? Thanks, Keith Goff _____ From: "Goff Electric" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:48:37 AM Subject: Motor mount fittings [image/jpeg:photo 1.JPG] [image/jpeg:photo 2.JPG] Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cross strut size From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" It's on the plans. Look to the right. ;) -------- Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420844#420844 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_938.jpg ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cross strut size From: "john francis" Thanks Curt. -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420845#420845 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:41 AM PST US From: "Dick N" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation Tools That was a great assesment of the Piet. You do have to find the cruise rpm and the decent rpm and the climb rpm. These are more important than any trim controls. Then as you say stay ahead of the plane. Also listen closely to Will Wynne, I am very grateful Will is posting here. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "tools" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:34 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation > > I don't have all the exact data here, but hopefully somewhat useful. > > NX2RN, built by Dick N, is a short wood fuse, wing moved back 4 1/2 > inches, A65 plane. > > The WB sheet he did showed the CG calculated at around 19.5 inches, with > him in the plane, he's maybe 10 or 20 lbs heavier than I. So I flew it > without checking. > > However, when it came time to teach my son to fly it, wasn't sure if it > would be in balance with him being 50 plus pounds lighter than I. > > So I got GOOD digital race car scales, blocked the plane up level and > checked it all empirically, ie with us in the plane to be sure. > > Turns out it was 19 inches with me, about 17.5 with Scott and VERY > suprisingly 16.5 inches with ME in the FRONT cockpit. In other words, it > showed to be safe soloing from the front! > > I really thought the plane was more finicky than it turned out to be. > > Though it's not real stable (ie doesn't return to original position after > an upset - gust of wind, control input, etc - quickly), it does fly well > and predictably. Not an incredibly easy plane to learn to fly, it does > handle a variety of conditions well. Certainly handles more conditions > than really needed, it's a fun fly plane, not a reliable get you there > plane. > > It requires more headwork than pilot skills. > > I think it's best to NOT have trim in this plane, as you can't afford to > not be constantly thinking about the condition of flight. It is a little > like a jet, predictable and fundamentally easy. If you find yourself in a > bad situation, the decision that got you there was (comparatively) long > ago and you missed it. You do really have to be ahead of this plane to > fly it safely. Wouldn't think that is the case at 60 mph... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420837#420837 > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation From: "tools" Ya, me too! Awesome critical thinking. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420848#420848 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:18 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cross strut size From: "curtdm(at)gmail.com" You're welcome. -------- Curt Merdan Flower Mound, TX Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420850#420850 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:54 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia From: "Don Emch" Well just in case any of you are having a tough time falling asleep tonight.... or if you want to laugh at a very amateurish hand drawn Weight and Balance sheet.... here it is. For quick background. Essentially it is a "plans built" (according to Don Emch, Ha!) airframe. Long fuselage with plans built steel split axle gear. I followed the plans the best I could with the exception of brakes, small tailwheel, nose tank, slanting the cabanes back 3.5" and cheating slightly on the A-65 engine mount by extending it about 1". As far as I know that is about all I did. (Hopefully I can still sit on the Top Curmudgeon Board). According to my measurements here, my wing leading edge is 6" forward of the axle. Which if you look at the plans and note that I moved the wing back 3.5" then you'll see that the axle is located according to plans. I really think that moving the wing back is key for both weight and balance and being able to keep the axle at plans location while using brakes. A lot more is accomplished versus extending the engine mount. My seat, baggage, and fuel "arms" were derived by actually putting fuel, baggage and people in those locations while on the scales and working the math backwards to get accurate arm lengths. A couple of scenarios are given as samples in flight conditions too. You can see with me at about 185 lbs. and running the tank dry I approach the aft limit... but then I'll probably have a few other things on my mind at that point. Interestingly, It feels the nicest in flight when the C.G. is hovering around the 17" - 18" aft of leading edge area. I think that wing likes it there. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420853#420853 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_weight_and_balance_data_456.pdf ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:16 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia From: "Don Emch" One more thing... As far as the brakes go, they are just 5" drum brakes. They will kinda hold for run up. A low run up while on pavement and a healthier run up if on grass. I've never felt the need to use them on landing. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420854#420854 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Motor mount fittings From: Goff Electric Thanks jack, great explanation and pictures. Keith Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 1:10 PM, "Jack Phillips" wr ote: > > Keith, > > I modified the wooden strip that holds the fabric off the plywood to fit o ver and around the engine mount brackets as shown below: > > > When the fabric went on, you could net tell where the engine mount bolts w ere, as shown below: > > > > Just make sure that you cover the bolt heads (and anything elese that the f abric might chafe against) with pinked edge tape or a pinked edge patch to p rotect the fabric. It=99s amazing to long alonside the fuselage in fl ight and see how much drumming takes place with the fabric. If left unreinf orced, any chafing will quickly wear holes right through it. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of goffelectric@comcast.net > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:56 AM > To: Pietenpol List > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Motor mount fittings > > > > Guys, > > It will be awhile before I need to cover but I would like to know how ever yone covered this area around the motor mount brackets. The strips on each s ide of the bracket is 1/4" tall so it seems like it would be hard to make th e fabric around the bracket look good. Do you glue a piece of 1/4" wood aro und the top on the bracket to keep it on the same level? > > Thanks, > Keith Goff > > From: "Goff Electric" > To: goffelectric@comcast.net > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:48:37 AM > Subject: Motor mount fittings > > > > > > [image/jpeg:photo 1.JPG] > > > > > > > [image/jpeg:photo 2.JPG] > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "tkreiner" Terry, Generally, the tips will only fit a specific brand and/or series of torch. In case you haven't looked at torches lately, there a large number of victor knock offfs out there, but I dont know whether the tips are identical or if they fit. My victor set is 30+ yrs old and it never fails me. The hoses lasted 25 years, and it seems their life depends on how you care for them. On that note, if your hoses aren't oily, cracked, crazed, whatever, they are probably OK. Over the years i picked up every tip available for the torch including rosebud and cutting torch on ebay or used tool stores. As far as tanks gi, Tools is right, if your tank is full of gas its ok to keep it full beyond cert date. On a purely economic level, I jot down the tank dates and refill prior to expiration, whether theyre empty or full. I got burned with the $70 to recert along with the $40 refill charge, and i dont want to spend the extra for nothing. If the tank cert runs out at their shop, they recert as their business expense, and you dont pay for it. -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420857#420857 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "jarheadpilot82" Tom and Tools, Many thanks for the information. I will take the torch over to the local welding supply on Monday and let them give me the good or bad news. Thanks again! -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420858#420858 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia From: airlion2@gmail.com Don,I have the jig now and in the process of figuring out how to make it 2 inches wider. Gardiner Sent from my iPad > On Mar 22, 2014, at 3:21 PM, "Don Emch" wrote: > > > Well just in case any of you are having a tough time falling asleep tonight.... or if you want to laugh at a very amateurish hand drawn Weight and Balance sheet.... here it is. > > For quick background. Essentially it is a "plans built" (according to Don Emch, Ha!) airframe. Long fuselage with plans built steel split axle gear. I followed the plans the best I could with the exception of brakes, small tailwheel, nose tank, slanting the cabanes back 3.5" and cheating slightly on the A-65 engine mount by extending it about 1". As far as I know that is about all I did. (Hopefully I can still sit on the Top Curmudgeon Board). According to my measurements here, my wing leading edge is 6" forward of the axle. Which if you look at the plans and note that I moved the wing back 3.5" then you'll see that the axle is located according to plans. I really think that moving the wing back is key for both weight and balance and being able to keep the axle at plans location while using brakes. A lot more is accomplished versus extending the engine mount. My seat, baggage, and fuel "arms" were derived by actually putting fuel, baggage and people in those loca! > tions while on the scales and working the math backwards to get accurate arm lengths. A couple of scenarios are given as samples in flight conditions too. You can see with me at about 185 lbs. and running the tank dry I approach the aft limit... but then I'll probably have a few other things on my mind at that point. > > Interestingly, It feels the nicest in flight when the C.G. is hovering around the 17" - 18" aft of leading edge area. I think that wing likes it there. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420853#420853 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_weight_and_balance_data_456.pdf > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "tools" I've seen shops go both ways on the recert thing. USUALLY taking them in early does the trick. It's one of those things, pretty sure I've gotten by once in a while because I didn't mention the date at all... like argon a few weeks ago. Didn't get by with it with CO2 at another shop a few months before that. Believe it or not, simply how the bottle looks makes a huge difference. The guy at the front desk wouldn't take a bottle once because it was owned by a company now defunct... wouldn't hydro it, exchange it, nothing. And it was awful rusty looking. When at the dock exchanging a couple others, the guy asked about the one 02 bottle I wasn't exchanging, told him the story. He said wire wheel it, paint it blue and try again. I did, same guy, few months later didn't give it a second glance. Weird. So if one place gives you a hard time, try another. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420863#420863 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:46 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia From: "Don Emch" Can you just go to the outside of the angle iron? Would that get it close to where you wouldn't need to actually change the fixture? Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420864#420864 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:50 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions From: "jarheadpilot82" I think that my biggest concern at this point is the torch itself. So, what brand do you recommend? Buehler? Buehler? Anyone? Anyone? -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420865#420865 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Don Emch W&B Data, aka Cure for Insomnia From: airlion2@gmail.com Thanks don, I will try that tomorrow, Gardiner Sent from my iPad > On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:08 PM, "Don Emch" wrote: > > > Can you just go to the outside of the angle iron? Would that get it close to where you wouldn't need to actually change the fixture? > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420864#420864 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:08 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location --WW,=0A=0A"Your comments in the letter tell me you are making a mistake, and do not know it."- =0APerhaps. However, my plane is quite similar to Mike Cuy's plane. Same fuselage length, same engine, same fuel tank size, s ame fuel tank location, etc., etc.-After talking to him and flying in his plane, I-was confident in doing what he did as far as landing gear place ment. =0A=0A"Bluntly, no one needs to move the axle backward."=0AI never sa id the axel needs to be moved.=0A=0A"I could not tell from your website wha t engine you are using, but if is lighter than a 235 Lycoming or you weigh more than 110 pounds dressed, you are creating a plane that will have a ter rible aft CG location."=0AI would venture a guess that there are hundreds o f things that you could not tell about my plane,-solely from looking at m y website. That would include all the things that may, in fact, render a ve ry nice, as built, CG. =0A=0A"Consider ceasing to advise people on what is OK on CG." =0AI'm not advising anyone. I was directly asked a question, my answer was to explain what I did and why. =0A=0A"...but if you willfully ig nore the content of my W&B data, you will regret it."=0AAgain, perhaps. I a m not saying your intel. in not valid...as I stated in the original post, I think it wise for everyone to have that documentation on hand; (You're wel come) I just don't agree with the "Do it my way or else." feel of the comme nt.=0A=0A"You offer a lot of DVD's for sale for a guy who is yet to fly his plane."=0AOnly 8 DVDs. All covering how I am constructing my plane. It's a documentary series. If you would actually like to view one or more of my D VDs, I can hook you up.=0A=0AI appreciate your comments as much as I do com ments and suggestions by most on this list. I am very close to completion o f my plane. So far I am pleased with the outcome and confident in my proces ses. When finished, flown and proven, (or not) I intend to disclose a full debrief on the entire process...the good, the bad, the ugly. The right, the wrong, the better, the worse, etc.- =0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot...swit ch seats.=0AMichael Perez=0APietenpol HINT Videos=0AKaretaker Aero=0Ahttp:/ /www.karetakeraero.com/ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:09 PM PST US From: glenschweizer@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: A Couple of Welding Questions Its been my experience the victor would get my recommendation. Accessories, tips etc. are readily available. Please stay away from the Asian crap. Harbor freight is good for many tools(including mig welders) but I've tried using their torches owned by a friend and they're trash. Glen Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2014, at 3:10 PM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote: > > > I think that my biggest concern at this point is the torch itself. So, what brand do you recommend? > > Buehler? Buehler? Anyone? Anyone? > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > USMC, USMCR, ATP > BVD DVD PDQ BBQ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420865#420865 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: running lean From: "taildrags" Timed the fuel flow in the 3-point attitude today. Filled a quart container in 21 seconds, so it's not fuel flow. Adjusted the damper blade in the air box to shut tightly when carb heat is off, then warmed up the engine and ran it up. It still will not take throttle above 1500 RPM without carb heat on, and will not run up to full static power without it. So it's not the carb heat box. I'm thinking more and more that it's an obstructed passageway or something in the carb. I'm rebuilding a core Stromberg and when it's ready, I'll swap it out with the one that's on the engine and we'll see if that's it. Meanwhile, I'm encouraged that the engine starts very readily and idles well. As soon as it's running right, it will be ready for annual. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420873#420873 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location From: Ryan Mueller I am sure that of the over 1,000 words marketing your DVDs on your HINT videos page, the 30 that are tacked on to the end of the second paragraph: "These DVDs are a video log of the way I am building my plane and for entertainment only. None of the changes or modifications have been flight tested or proven" ....are fully read and understood by everyone purchasing your videos. Your customers assuredly have full realization of the fact that this is the first airplane you have ever built, that you are not an engineer, nor are you a pilot, and that these DVDs are not instructing them on how they should build their airplane; that this 12 and 3/4 hour, 8 DVD set that costs $70 more than the plans to build the airplane itself is solely intended as a documentary for entertainment purposes. Uh huh.... Ryan On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 5:39 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > -WW, > > "Consider ceasing to advise people on what is OK on CG." > I'm not advising anyone. I was directly asked a question, my answer was to > explain what I did and why. > > "You offer a lot of DVD's for sale for a guy who is yet to fly his plane." > Only 8 DVDs. All covering how I am constructing my plane. It's a > documentary series. If you would actually like to view one or more of my > DVDs, I can hook you up. > > I appreciate your comments as much as I do comments and suggestions by > most on this list. I am very close to completion of my plane. So far I am > pleased with the outcome and confident in my processes. When finished, > flown and proven, (or not) I intend to disclose a full debrief on the > entire process...the good, the bad, the ugly. The right, the wrong, the > better, the worse, etc. > > > Michael Perez > Pietenpol HINT Videos > Karetaker Aero > http://www.karetakeraero.com/ > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:46 PM PST US From: santiago morete Subject: Pietenpol-List: Motor mount fittings Here is another idea=0A=0ASantiago ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:36 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation Attached is the spreadsheet I use for calculating CG on NX18235. It is an Excel 2007 file. I can enter any combination of weights and it spits out the CG location. Interesting to see how little the CG changes with varying fuel and passenger weights. The numbers briefly: Empty wt. 616 lbs Cabanes angled back approx. 3 1/2" from vertical Axle located 6 1/2" aft of the leading edge. This works well, NX18235 was built without brakes. It should be noted that this spreadsheet is unique for NX18235 only. Greg Cardinal Minneapolis ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Wynne" Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:52 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation > > Dan, > > Here is a positive suggestion: > > What don't you, Don and Mike Cuy, who all have flying planes that you > like, Take a few minutes to walk out to your planes, get the weight and > balance form out and type it in here, do I can all it to the data base we > have for planes. Please include your axle and tailwheel location, and your > pilot weight. If you guys like your planes, then share the data with > everyone and let them directly copy your set up if they choose to. Brian > sent in a lot of data, but I need to know the weights to put it in the > data base. > > Jack Phillips sent me an email saying his plane is actually in the CG > range with his pilot weight and set up, It is useful to others to pick > which path to follow if we can get it in the data set. > > If you don't like the numerical information, just ignore it. A new builder > doesn't need to understand every line that Chris and Brian wrote in. I > will do the math for them, it is not an issue, I know you guys as pilots > can do weight and balance calculations, don't make it sound hard to new > guys, it is a simple format with 6th grade math. I don't think flying > around out of CG adds to the romance of flight, nor do I see how having a > better fuel line ruins every sunset flight.-ww. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420825#420825 > > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:39 PM PST US From: jim hyde Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: running lean with carb heat off-the engine is fuel starving. carb heat changes that. n ow how do you fix that?? overhaul the carb. im assuming that you have check ed the mag timing..i had this problem on an o200 on my mong sport. I never figured out what was wrong but sent the carb for overhaul. they found nothi ng wrong but when I got the carb back and installed the motor ran great..so if timing is good compression good fuel to the carb adequqte then that lea ves the carb, if you put the plane in a level flight attitude does it make a difference??=0A=0Ajim=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:28 PM, tai ldrags wrote:=0A =0A--> Pietenpol-List message pos ted by: "taildrags" =0A=0ATimed the fuel flow in the 3-point attitude today.- Filled a quart container in 21 seconds, so it's not fuel flow.=0A=0AAdjusted the damper blade in the air box to shut tight ly when carb heat is off, then warmed up the engine and ran it up.- It st ill will not take throttle above 1500 RPM without carb heat on, and will no t run up to full static power without it.- So it's not the carb heat box. =0A=0AI'm thinking more and more that it's an obstructed passageway or some thing in the carb.- I'm rebuilding a core Stromberg and when it's ready, I'll swap it out with the one that's on the engine and we'll see if that's it.- Meanwhile, I'm encouraged that the engine starts very readily and id les well.- As soon as it's running right, it will be ready for annual.=0A =0A--------=0AOscar Zuniga=0AMedford, OR=0AAir Camper NX41CC "Scout&qu ot;=0AA75 power=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://foru =============== ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:58 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation Donna, Please save this for me. Your Lover! Sent from my iPad > On Mar 22, 2014, at 7:46 PM, "Greg Cardinal" wrote: > > Attached is the spreadsheet I use for calculating CG on NX18235. It is an Excel 2007 file. > I can enter any combination of weights and it spits out the CG location. Interesting to see how little the CG changes with varying fuel and passenger weights. > > The numbers briefly: > Empty wt. 616 lbs > Cabanes angled back approx. 3 1/2" from vertical > Axle located 6 1/2" aft of the leading edge. This works well, NX18235 was built without brakes. > > It should be noted that this spreadsheet is unique for NX18235 only. > > Greg Cardinal > Minneapolis > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Wynne" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:52 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG vs Wheels Location..emergency situation > > >> >> Dan, >> >> Here is a positive suggestion: >> >> What don't you, Don and Mike Cuy, who all have flying planes that you like, Take a few minutes to walk out to your planes, get the weight and balance form out and type it in here, do I can all it to the data base we have for planes. Please include your axle and tailwheel location, and your pilot weight. If you guys like your planes, then share the data with everyone and let them directly copy your set up if they choose to. Brian sent in a lot of data, but I need to know the weights to put it in the data base. >> >> Jack Phillips sent me an email saying his plane is actually in the CG range with his pilot weight and set up, It is useful to others to pick which path to follow if we can get it in the data set. >> >> If you don't like the numerical information, just ignore it. A new builder doesn't need to understand every line that Chris and Brian wrote in. I will do the math for them, it is not an issue, I know you guys as pilots can do weight and balance calculations, don't make it sound hard to new guys, it is a simple format with 6th grade math. I don't think flying around out of CG adds to the romance of flight, nor do I see how having a better fuel line ruins every sunset flight.-ww. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=420825#420825 > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.