Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:55 AM - Re: Brodhead 2014 (john francis)
2. 04:11 AM - Re: Re: Brodhead 2014 (Jack)
3. 04:32 AM - Bratfest IV Reminder (Jack)
4. 04:54 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment (Michael Perez)
5. 05:16 AM - (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez)
6. 06:21 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Jack Phillips)
7. 07:37 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez)
8. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment (Rick Holland)
9. 08:23 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Ryan Mueller)
10. 08:41 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez)
11. 09:16 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Ryan Mueller)
12. 09:25 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Bill Church)
13. 10:08 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (tkreiner)
14. 10:10 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Jack)
15. 11:21 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez)
16. 01:12 PM - weight and balance (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
17. 01:27 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (Ken Bickers)
18. 01:44 PM - Re: weight and balance (Don Emch)
19. 01:55 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (Gene Rambo)
20. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
21. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Gene Rambo)
22. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Jack Phillips)
23. 02:51 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (Jack)
24. 02:56 PM - Re: weight and balance (William Wynne)
25. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
26. 06:10 PM - Re: Randy Bush (William Wynne)
27. 08:05 PM - Re: weight and balance (William Wynne)
28. 09:01 PM - Re: weight and balance (jarheadpilot82)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead 2014 |
A death in the family has cancelled my plans to attend. Bummer....you all have
fun.
--------
John Francis
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427124#427124
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Brodhead 2014 |
Sad news John, thoughts are with you...
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 5:55 AM, "john francis" <Mrkringles@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
> A death in the family has cancelled my plans to attend. Bummer....you all have
fun.
>
> --------
> John Francis
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427124#427124
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Bratfest IV Reminder |
Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to joi
n us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead Fri
day, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the field
by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fl
y-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. When
they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for the
45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope for g
reat weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & Sus
an Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
I received my aluminum jury strut material from Carlson Aircraft. I also bo
ught their jury strut installation kit. The kit does all 4 wing strut/jury
strut attachments. The kit varies depending on the size wing struts you use
. Mine are all the smaller size struts and this kit was tailored for them.
- I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16" bolts through ea
ch wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to prevent crushing. T
he kit itself has everything needed...various aluminum pieces cut to size,
raw stock you need to custom cut to fit your set up and all hardware.- Ve
ry simply, the kit uses two angle brackets bolted through the wing strut wh
ich holds the jury strut between them.=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, swi
tch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L locat
ions and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements, etc.
While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I fig
ure W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R, tai
l wheel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct?- That number, (D
), minus the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from win
g L.E. (?)=0A=0AShould I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is
light, but I would not go as far as calling it a negative weight.=0A=0AAny
guidance would be appreciated.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switc
h seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0AFirst engine start complete!
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Michael,
Have you finished covering and painting? The fabric on the fuselage and
tail will add considerable weight. It will be somewhat difficult to figure
how much that will weigh, but it should be possible to just add a weight (5
gallon bucket full of sand) at a measured location and just subtract that
moment out of your calculations to determine the actual weight and balance
of your unfinished airplane.
I'm not sure what benefit a rough W&B will be since it is very difficult to
anticipate the weight and cg of the fabric cover. Fabric and paint weigh a
lot. I was horrified to realize that the fabric and polyurethane paint on
mine added nearly 75 lbs.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
Wishing I was on my way to Brodhead. Maybe next year!
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:16 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance
Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L
locations and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements,
etc. While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I
figure W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R,
tail wheel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct? That number,
(D), minus the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from
wing L.E. (?)
Should I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is light, but I
would not go as far as calling it a negative weight.
Any guidance would be appreciated.
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
First engine start complete!
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Jack, the plane is complete minus jury struts, (in work) and the diagonal c
abane supports from the engine mounts.- I can't think of anything else mi
ssing.- About the only other items would be small...cotter pins, turnbuck
le clips, covers for the wing/center section gaps, etc. Right now the entir
e plane is assembled and level.- I wanted to do an initial W&B to see if
the wings may need to be moved a lot prior to making my jury struts and cab
ane diagonals. I believe my wing cross cables have enough slack to allow wi
ng adjustment. The cabanes as it sits are almost straight up, I measure 87
degrees to the longeron.=0A=0AI am waiting word back on a set of race car s
cales for the actual weighing, just not sure how to handle no tail weight.
=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker
Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
Interesting, I have seen several Piets with jury struts bolted through the
flying struts but I didn't have the nerve to drill holes in mine (doesn't
mean that there is any problem doing it that way). Was almost easier to
make four wrap-around straps out of thin chrome moly sheet attached to the
strut and the horizontal and vertical jury struts with a single AN3
bolt/nut.
rh
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:53 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> I received my aluminum jury strut material from Carlson Aircraft. I also
> bought their jury strut installation kit. The kit does all 4 wing
> strut/jury strut attachments. The kit varies depending on the size wing
> struts you use. Mine are all the smaller size struts and this kit was
> tailored for them. I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16"
> bolts through each wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to
> prevent crushing. The kit itself has everything needed...various aluminum
> pieces cut to size, raw stock you need to custom cut to fit your set up and
> all hardware. Very simply, the kit uses two angle brackets bolted through
> the wing strut which holds the jury strut between them.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
Castle Rock, Colorado
NX6819Z
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
In my opinion, the way to handle no/negative tail weight would be to cover
the aircraft and then weigh it....since, as Jack pointed out, without the
weight of the fabric and paint/dope aft of the wing your numbers at this
stage are going to be off compared to after covering.
I would think even just covering the fuselage and weighing with uncovered
wings would be better than weighing it now. The wing would weigh less
uncovered, but since the wing is "on the CG" the increase in weight from
covering should have minimal impact on the aircraft's CG....
-Ryan
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> Jack, the plane is complete minus jury struts, (in work) and the diagonal
> cabane supports from the engine mounts. I can't think of anything else
> missing. About the only other items would be small...cotter pins,
> turnbuckle clips, covers for the wing/center section gaps, etc. Right now
> the entire plane is assembled and level. I wanted to do an initial W&B to
> see if the wings may need to be moved a lot prior to making my jury struts
> and cabane diagonals. I believe my wing cross cables have enough slack to
> allow wing adjustment. The cabanes as it sits are almost straight up, I
> measure 87 degrees to the longeron.
>
> I am waiting word back on a set of race car scales for the actual
> weighing, just not sure how to handle no tail weight.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
To be clear...the aircraft is complete, including full fabric/cover/paint/v
arnish, etc. The only items missing are the cabane diagonals and jury strut
s. I want an initial W&B to see where the wing should be so that I can fabr
icate the parts mentioned.-- There is nothing left to do that would "he
lp" add weight to the tail, I just need to know how to figure it as is whil
e doing the W&B calculations.=0A=0AOnce I get my hands on the scales, and f
ind out where to put the wings, I can wrap up these last few items and...we
ll...WOW...it is just now starting to hit me...I'm done!=0A=0A=0AThanks for
the help. =0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez
=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Oh oh, my apologies. Well, again as Jack mentioned, you would just add a
known amount of weight sufficient to keep the tail down, measure the
station at which you add it, and then use maths to to subtract it from your
results. It might be easier to plug your numbers into a spreadsheet to make
them easier to deal with subtracting that temporary ballast, playing around
with W&B scenarios, etc, instead of that formula...
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> To be clear...the aircraft is complete, including full
> fabric/cover/paint/varnish, etc. The only items missing are the cabane
> diagonals and jury struts. I want an initial W&B to see where the wing
> should be so that I can fabricate the parts mentioned. There is nothing
> left to do that would "help" add weight to the tail, I just need to know
> how to figure it as is while doing the W&B calculations.
>
> Once I get my hands on the scales, and find out where to put the wings, I
> can wrap up these last few items and...well...WOW...it is just now starting
> to hit me...I'm done!
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
If you are experiencing "negative' weight at the tail, when the longerons are level
(i.e. the plane wants to tip onto it's nose, rather than resting on three
wheels), it sounds like maybe your axle is too far back.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427152#427152
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
Bill poses a great question.... but its still unclear to me what you mean when
you say, "no tail weight."
Does this mean, you have no scales with which to weigh the tail, or, as Bill states,
is the plane balanced and no weight exists when the longerons are level?
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427154#427154
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
No pictures heh, hiding that beautiful paint job!
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 7:16 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrot
e:
>
> Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L loca
tions and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements, etc.
While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I figu
re W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R, tail w
heel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct? That number, (D), min
us the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from wing L.E. (
?)
>
> Should I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is light, but I wo
uld not go as far as calling it a negative weight.
>
> Any guidance would be appreciated.
>
>
> If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
> Mike Perez
> Karetaker Aero
> First engine start complete!
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance |
I see what you mean Ryan, I could do what you suggest, that seems pretty st
raight forward.=0A=0ATom, with the longerons level, the tail tends to raise
.- It will balance on its own with a slight nose up attitude, but when le
vel, the tail will not stay put with out being tied to something.=0A=0AJack
T., I would not call my paint job pretty. It is brushed on latex and actua
lly, now that I have it out in different lighting, I see some yellowing whe
re the ekobond glue has been used and some of the parts that were painted a
few years back have a different tint to them compared to the parts more re
cently painted. It's only on the light colored areas, but I have a lot of l
ight colored areas! It does lend itself to that weathered/old/used look I l
ike, so I may leave it...=0A=0AOne thing I did think of that will help...I
=0A still have about 3 gallons of fuel in the nose tank. I will drain that
tonight and see how the tail behaves.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot
, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | weight and balance |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Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Jack, my son, Kevin, and I are looking forward to the bratfest. We'll be
arriving Thursday afternoon if the weather gods smile upon us. Cheers, Ken
On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:32 AM, Jack <jack@textors.com> wrote:
> Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to
> join us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
>
> * Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at
> Brodhead Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge
> of the field by the white fence.
> http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg
> <http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg>
> We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. When they are gone,
> the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for the 45 foot brown
> and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope for great weather!
> We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & Susan Five One
> Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor *
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Jack Textor
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
Mike P.,
If your gear and airframe is set up the same as Mike's then listen to what he has
to say. Now to start a little more head scratchin'... if your cabanes are
vertical and you are indeed set up like Mike's, you're actually tail heavy.
:o
But, of course as you move your wing back you'll add some weight to that tail and
lighten it up. Aerodynamically that is. Clear as mud, right. :D
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427166#427166
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Jack, I will be there with my family. My little guy Will looks forward to i
t every year. He has already asked about it!!
Gene
On Jul 22, 2014, at 7:32 AM, Jack <jack@textors.com> wrote:
> Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to j
oin us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
> Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead
Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the f
ield by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C3
7-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. W
hen they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for t
he 45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope fo
r great weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & S
usan Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Jack Textor
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements!
The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch, all-Am
erican barnstormer,
ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is cor
recteth.
My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the year
s of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should
position his wing at 3" aft
of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to move
the wing back to the 4" aft of vertical position but since Mike weighs les
s he doesn't need to move
his wing back as far as I did. The only time I've seen cabanes vertica
l are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-long nosed
Piets with 65 Continentals on them.
Mike C.
Ohio
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical??
Gene
On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, L
LC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
> The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements!
The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch, all-Am
erican barnstormer,
> ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is co
rrecteth.
>
> My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the yea
rs of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should p
osition his wing at 3=9D aft
> of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to mov
e the wing back to the 4=9D aft of vertical position but since Mike we
ighs less he doesn=99t need to move
> his wing back as far as I did. The only time I=99ve seen cabane
s vertical are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-lo
ng nosed Piets with 65 Continentals on them.
>
> Mike C.
> Ohio
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
It'll look like an Anteater.
Serously, if you send me your W&B data I can calculate where the engine's cg
needs to be . But my guess is it'll be one of those "Long Nose" Pietenpols.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance
So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical??
Gene
On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners,
LLC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote:
The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements!
The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch,
all-American barnstormer,
ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is
correcteth.
My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the years
of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should
position his wing at 3" aft
of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to move
the wing back to the 4" aft of vertical position but since Mike weighs less
he doesn't need to move
his wing back as far as I did. The only time I've seen cabanes vertical
are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-long nosed
Piets with 65 Continentals on them.
Mike C.
Ohio
==================================
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
==================================
cs.com
==================================
matronics.com/contribution
==================================
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Great guys!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Jack <jack@textors.com> wrote:
>
> Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to j
oin us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below.
> Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead
Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the f
ield by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C3
7-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. W
hen they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for t
he 45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope fo
r great weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & S
usan Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
> Jack Textor
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
Mike Cuy:
Friendly suggestion here: Resist giving Mike P. advice. He would be much better
off with a real calculation than your 'Kentucky' guess. Your comments about Mikes
plane being just like yours don't hold water for two reasons. One you have
not posted your exact W&B numbers and neither has Mike P. Maybe if mike saw
your numbers, he would shoot for something different.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second, Mike P. has a different airfoil than you do We are just about to do some
actual measurements on this issue, for you to advise Mike to Make his Cabanes
a specific length, a week before we have more data is poor advice. Your advice
is based on one report you read from Don's plane. Contrast this with the fact
that unlike you, I have seen Don's plane in person, I have further detail rigging
info on it, W&B data, and I did the W&B project. Maybe I am in a much better
position to say that Mike P. could wait for a bit more data Honestly, you
have no idea on how Mike Ps W&B even looks compard to Don's or what effect this
might have on incidence. Until next week I don't either, but I am not the
one telling Mike Ps how to build his cabanes today either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike, for being a guy who works for NASA, I would think that you of all builders
would understand that making a blanket statement about all cabanes on a very
diverse group of planes based solely on a sample size of one plane (Don's) is
very poor science. How good do you think the W&B project would have been if you
just found one guy who said he liked the way he plane flew, weighed it, and
then told every other builder from then on to make his plane just like that?
---------------------------------------------------------
Mike Cuy, if you have a PPL, than you have to know how to do a W&B calculation.
Can you explain why you are reluctant to just get Mike Ps number and do this
for him? I did this for Chris Rusch last week, and if you will not do it for Mike
P, I will be glad to. Ryan and I did the whole W&B project just so that people
whold keep using 'Kentucky' guesses, they could just calculate things exactly
--------------------------------------------
Mike P. If Mike Cuy can't/won't do it for you, send me the numbers. Level the fuselage,
and put a 5 pound weight on the horizontal stabilizer in line with the
tail wheeel axle. When you do the calculation, mathmaticaly remove this as
a tear weight. If you don't know how to do this, just send me the raw numbers,
I will use it to show everyone how this is done
-------------------------------------------------------
Right off the bat, I am going to say that any Piet that has the axle so far back
that it has no tail weight in level position, has a very good change of ending
up on its back if it has brakes. Mike P, your plane may not have this issue,
because until we see the numbers, we don't know where your wing should be. If
you have not gotten the W&B articles from Doc, I highly suggest that you do
so. If you ignore this resource in favor of the 'Kentucky' method, you may not
like the results, and it is my guess that none of the people who are offering
off the cuff advice will show up at your house and help you rebuild your plane.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Cuy, You are a great guy in many respects and you have done a lot to promote
Pietenpols and this is much appreciated, but I am politely suggesting that
offering 'Kentucky' information detracts from your contribution to Pietenpols.
Your efforts to promote the design have been sterling, why tarnish this with
poor advice when anyone with PPL level skills and our W&B articles could do an
exact calculation for Mike P?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Cuy, if you would really like to show me that your own plane is an excellent
enough example for Mike P to be following with confidence, the very simple
thing for you to do is make your next post to this list your real weight and balance
that you fly your own plane with. If you are flying at 19, 19.5 or 20",
perhaps mike should know this and not directly copy your plane and just hope
it turns out well.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427179#427179
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
William-Mike Perez has copies of my W&B paperwork. He lives 15 minutes f
rom me. My advice to him on his particular Piet is sound.
Mike C.
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
For any builders who have not yet met Randy, You can click on this link to a story
I wrote about him last year:
http://flycorvair.net/2013/07/11/randy-bushs-pietenpol-hits-500-hours/
I have known Randy a long time, and have always felt on the same page with him
since we shared the thought that homebuilding, the hours in your shop are vital
part of protecting your sanity in modern life. The blue print at the bottom
of the story covers this theme.
---------------------------------------------------
There are also some good photos of his plane at Oshkosh last year at this link:
http://flycorvair.net/2013/08/12/brodhead-oshkosh-and-beyond-2013/
He parked it right behind our booth, and that is were the EAA did the story for
the Experimenter. Mary Jones, my mentor in aviation writing who has worked for
the EAA for 30 years personally found the writer and stewarded the story through
publications. She is arguable the best Journalist in Light aviation. If
there is ever a story that needs telling correctly, steer it to her attention.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427186#427186
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
Mike Cuy,
If Mike P. has your W&B data, it seems he doesn't yet understand it well enough
to use it. Saying thing like "7 pounds on the tailwheel" is not an adequate plan,
and anyone who understands W&B knows that is a meaningless comment, it says
nothing about where his CG is, just how far it is from the axle. My point is
that the useful numbers are very easy to calculate, and if Mike P. types in
his data just like Chris R. Did, he can have an accurate calculation from Jack,
Ryan or myself, and have a real plan.
-------------------------------------------------------
Our weight and balance data has at least six A-65 Piet examples in it. If Mike
P sends his data in he will have the benefit of a professional calculation and
the comparison to several other examples. Mike Cuy, you know something about
planes, and Mike P. is very new and green. Obviously he looks up to your experience
and you are acting as some type of advisor to him. There is a responsibility
to that, and in my book, you tell new guys to get as much information as
they can from sources with greater experience, even if you don't personally find
that source pleasant.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike P, here is my last comment ever on your project, unless you specifically ask
me to teach you something, you will not hear from me: If you think Mike Cuy
is a great guy, a better human than me, you are absolutely right. I have met
Mike Cuy and I think is probably a better person that me. You are new to aviation,
and you are at a decision point. Follow what good, pleasant people say.....or
listen to anybody who might have the answer, even if you find that person
distasteful. This is very importiant
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
25 years ago I decided that as a mechanic, the people who put their families in
planes I worked on were counting on me to have a very high level of expertise
in my craft. I saw this as morally obligating me to learn my craft at great
depth, no matter who I had to learn it from. Many of the things I know about planes
came from men I would not want as a father in law or a neighbor, far less
any kind of friend. None the less, they knew things that I needed to know to
be better at my craft. If you choose to restrict your learning to just instructors
you like, think are nice, go to the same church, don't use foul language,
or say tactless things, then maybe you can't honestly say that you have really
done everything in your control to minimize risk for your eventual passengers.
Think that over, answer it for yourself, make sure the answer you get isn't
just good enough for today, but good enough for the day after you have an accident
and someone gets hurt.
---------------------------------------------
One more point Mike P: You mention God in every post. The finest human being I ever met in aviation was my friend Bob Bean. In my life, I have never met a man of greater faith, not even close. You can see Bob's picture with his wife Sara here: http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-management-reference-page/ , They are both dead, a single stupid mistake in weather in a Glassair III. I am sure Bob's God protected his soul, but God did not protect his mortal life. I am very glad you soloed a plane, it is a big step, congratulations, but it concerned me that you thought it was no different than driving a car. I have been flying for 20 years, and every single take off puts me in a state of awareness of risk far beyond anything I feel driving to the gas station. Maybe I took your comment wrong, but it concerned me because people don't prepare for risk they do not perceive, and it didn't sound like you felt at risk, to say, something like the engine quitting. Bob expressed to me many times that he felt "protected" when flying, but I did not ask him to elaborate, perhaps he was just expressing the disposition of his soul, not his physical being. Something to think about.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427188#427188
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
Mike (Cuy),
Just a thought, but if "Kentucky windage" is acceptable for setting the cabanes,
is it okay for trammeling the wings, or setting the camber of the wheels? Or
any host of other choices in building an airplane?
If data is available, and freely available at that, why is is so wrong to use it?
I am no aerodynamicist, and only a budding builder, but I do know that most
of these questions can be answered with something beyond "TLAR" (that looks about
right).
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427189#427189
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|