---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/22/14: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:55 AM - Re: Brodhead 2014 (john francis) 2. 04:11 AM - Re: Re: Brodhead 2014 (Jack) 3. 04:32 AM - Bratfest IV Reminder (Jack) 4. 04:54 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment (Michael Perez) 5. 05:16 AM - (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez) 6. 06:21 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Jack Phillips) 7. 07:37 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez) 8. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment (Rick Holland) 9. 08:23 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Ryan Mueller) 10. 08:41 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez) 11. 09:16 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Ryan Mueller) 12. 09:25 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Bill Church) 13. 10:08 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (tkreiner) 14. 10:10 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Jack) 15. 11:21 AM - Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance (Michael Perez) 16. 01:12 PM - weight and balance (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 17. 01:27 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (Ken Bickers) 18. 01:44 PM - Re: weight and balance (Don Emch) 19. 01:55 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (Gene Rambo) 20. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 21. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Gene Rambo) 22. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Jack Phillips) 23. 02:51 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (Jack) 24. 02:56 PM - Re: weight and balance (William Wynne) 25. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: weight and balance (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 26. 06:10 PM - Re: Randy Bush (William Wynne) 27. 08:05 PM - Re: weight and balance (William Wynne) 28. 09:01 PM - Re: weight and balance (jarheadpilot82) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:55:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014 From: "john francis" A death in the family has cancelled my plans to attend. Bummer....you all have fun. -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427124#427124 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead 2014 From: Jack Sad news John, thoughts are with you... Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Jul 22, 2014, at 5:55 AM, "john francis" wrote: > > > A death in the family has cancelled my plans to attend. Bummer....you all have fun. > > -------- > John Francis > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427124#427124 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:49 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bratfest IV Reminder From: Jack Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to joi n us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below. Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead Fri day, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the field by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fl y-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. When they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for the 45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope for g reat weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & Sus an Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor Sent from my iPad Jack Textor ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:03 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment I received my aluminum jury strut material from Carlson Aircraft. I also bo ught their jury strut installation kit. The kit does all 4 wing strut/jury strut attachments. The kit varies depending on the size wing struts you use . Mine are all the smaller size struts and this kit was tailored for them. - I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16" bolts through ea ch wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to prevent crushing. T he kit itself has everything needed...various aluminum pieces cut to size, raw stock you need to custom cut to fit your set up and all hardware.- Ve ry simply, the kit uses two angle brackets bolted through the wing strut wh ich holds the jury strut between them.=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, swi tch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:42 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L locat ions and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements, etc. While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I fig ure W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R, tai l wheel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct?- That number, (D ), minus the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from win g L.E. (?)=0A=0AShould I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is light, but I would not go as far as calling it a negative weight.=0A=0AAny guidance would be appreciated.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switc h seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0AFirst engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:57 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance Michael, Have you finished covering and painting? The fabric on the fuselage and tail will add considerable weight. It will be somewhat difficult to figure how much that will weigh, but it should be possible to just add a weight (5 gallon bucket full of sand) at a measured location and just subtract that moment out of your calculations to determine the actual weight and balance of your unfinished airplane. I'm not sure what benefit a rough W&B will be since it is very difficult to anticipate the weight and cg of the fabric cover. Fabric and paint weigh a lot. I was horrified to realize that the fabric and polyurethane paint on mine added nearly 75 lbs. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia Wishing I was on my way to Brodhead. Maybe next year! _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:16 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L locations and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements, etc. While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I figure W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R, tail wheel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct? That number, (D), minus the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from wing L.E. (?) Should I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is light, but I would not go as far as calling it a negative weight. Any guidance would be appreciated. If God is your co-pilot, switch seats Mike Perez Karetaker Aero First engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:15 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance Jack, the plane is complete minus jury struts, (in work) and the diagonal c abane supports from the engine mounts.- I can't think of anything else mi ssing.- About the only other items would be small...cotter pins, turnbuck le clips, covers for the wing/center section gaps, etc. Right now the entir e plane is assembled and level.- I wanted to do an initial W&B to see if the wings may need to be moved a lot prior to making my jury struts and cab ane diagonals. I believe my wing cross cables have enough slack to allow wi ng adjustment. The cabanes as it sits are almost straight up, I measure 87 degrees to the longeron.=0A=0AI am waiting word back on a set of race car s cales for the actual weighing, just not sure how to handle no tail weight. =0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment From: Rick Holland Interesting, I have seen several Piets with jury struts bolted through the flying struts but I didn't have the nerve to drill holes in mine (doesn't mean that there is any problem doing it that way). Was almost easier to make four wrap-around straps out of thin chrome moly sheet attached to the strut and the horizontal and vertical jury struts with a single AN3 bolt/nut. rh On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:53 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > I received my aluminum jury strut material from Carlson Aircraft. I also > bought their jury strut installation kit. The kit does all 4 wing > strut/jury strut attachments. The kit varies depending on the size wing > struts you use. Mine are all the smaller size struts and this kit was > tailored for them. I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16" > bolts through each wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to > prevent crushing. The kit itself has everything needed...various aluminum > pieces cut to size, raw stock you need to custom cut to fit your set up and > all hardware. Very simply, the kit uses two angle brackets bolted through > the wing strut which holds the jury strut between them. > > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats > Mike Perez > Karetaker Aero > First engine start complete! > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado NX6819Z ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance From: Ryan Mueller In my opinion, the way to handle no/negative tail weight would be to cover the aircraft and then weigh it....since, as Jack pointed out, without the weight of the fabric and paint/dope aft of the wing your numbers at this stage are going to be off compared to after covering. I would think even just covering the fuselage and weighing with uncovered wings would be better than weighing it now. The wing would weigh less uncovered, but since the wing is "on the CG" the increase in weight from covering should have minimal impact on the aircraft's CG.... -Ryan On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > Jack, the plane is complete minus jury struts, (in work) and the diagonal > cabane supports from the engine mounts. I can't think of anything else > missing. About the only other items would be small...cotter pins, > turnbuckle clips, covers for the wing/center section gaps, etc. Right now > the entire plane is assembled and level. I wanted to do an initial W&B to > see if the wings may need to be moved a lot prior to making my jury struts > and cabane diagonals. I believe my wing cross cables have enough slack to > allow wing adjustment. The cabanes as it sits are almost straight up, I > measure 87 degrees to the longeron. > > I am waiting word back on a set of race car scales for the actual > weighing, just not sure how to handle no tail weight. > > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats > Mike Perez > Karetaker Aero > First engine start complete! > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:33 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance To be clear...the aircraft is complete, including full fabric/cover/paint/v arnish, etc. The only items missing are the cabane diagonals and jury strut s. I want an initial W&B to see where the wing should be so that I can fabr icate the parts mentioned.-- There is nothing left to do that would "he lp" add weight to the tail, I just need to know how to figure it as is whil e doing the W&B calculations.=0A=0AOnce I get my hands on the scales, and f ind out where to put the wings, I can wrap up these last few items and...we ll...WOW...it is just now starting to hit me...I'm done!=0A=0A=0AThanks for the help. =0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez =0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance From: Ryan Mueller Oh oh, my apologies. Well, again as Jack mentioned, you would just add a known amount of weight sufficient to keep the tail down, measure the station at which you add it, and then use maths to to subtract it from your results. It might be easier to plug your numbers into a spreadsheet to make them easier to deal with subtracting that temporary ballast, playing around with W&B scenarios, etc, instead of that formula... On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > To be clear...the aircraft is complete, including full > fabric/cover/paint/varnish, etc. The only items missing are the cabane > diagonals and jury struts. I want an initial W&B to see where the wing > should be so that I can fabricate the parts mentioned. There is nothing > left to do that would "help" add weight to the tail, I just need to know > how to figure it as is while doing the W&B calculations. > > Once I get my hands on the scales, and find out where to put the wings, I > can wrap up these last few items and...well...WOW...it is just now starting > to hit me...I'm done! > > Thanks for the help. > > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats > Mike Perez > Karetaker Aero > First engine start complete! > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:20 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance From: "Bill Church" If you are experiencing "negative' weight at the tail, when the longerons are level (i.e. the plane wants to tip onto it's nose, rather than resting on three wheels), it sounds like maybe your axle is too far back. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427152#427152 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:26 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: (No) Tail Weight & Balance From: "tkreiner" Bill poses a great question.... but its still unclear to me what you mean when you say, "no tail weight." Does this mean, you have no scales with which to weigh the tail, or, as Bill states, is the plane balanced and no weight exists when the longerons are level? -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427154#427154 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance From: Jack No pictures heh, hiding that beautiful paint job! Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Jul 22, 2014, at 7:16 AM, Michael Perez wrot e: > > Well, I am preparing my plane for a rough W&B...leveling, marking C/L loca tions and bulkhead locations on a floor reference, making measurements, etc. While the longerons are level, I need to strap the tail down. How do I figu re W&B with, no tail weight? Using the formula CG=D+(RxL/W) Since R, tail w heel weight, is zero, I am left with D only, correct? That number, (D), min us the wing leading edge/datum distance equals C.G. location from wing L.E. ( ?) > > Should I concern myself with a negative tail weight? It is light, but I wo uld not go as far as calling it a negative weight. > > Any guidance would be appreciated. > > > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats > Mike Perez > Karetaker Aero > First engine start complete! > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:59 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: (No) Tail Weight & Balance I see what you mean Ryan, I could do what you suggest, that seems pretty st raight forward.=0A=0ATom, with the longerons level, the tail tends to raise .- It will balance on its own with a slight nose up attitude, but when le vel, the tail will not stay put with out being tied to something.=0A=0AJack T., I would not call my paint job pretty. It is brushed on latex and actua lly, now that I have it out in different lighting, I see some yellowing whe re the ekobond glue has been used and some of the parts that were painted a few years back have a different tint to them compared to the parts more re cently painted. It's only on the light colored areas, but I have a lot of l ight colored areas! It does lend itself to that weathered/old/used look I l ike, so I may leave it...=0A=0AOne thing I did think of that will help...I =0A still have about 3 gallons of fuel in the nose tank. I will drain that tonight and see how the tail behaves.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot , switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:24 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: weight and balance TWlrZeKAlHlvdXIgcGxhbmUgaXMgYWxtb3N0IGlkZW50aWNhbCBpbiBldmVyeSByZXNwZWN0IHRv IG15IGFpcnBsYW5lIHdpdGggdGhlIGV4Y2VwdGlvbiB0aGF0IG15IGNhYmFuZSBzdHJ1dHMgYXJl IHNsYW50ZWQgYmFjayA04oCdIGFmdCBvZiBiZWluZyB1cHJpZ2h04oCm4oCmdGhhdCBpcyB3aHkg eW91ciB0YWlsIGlzIGZsb2F0aW5nLg0KDQpJZiB5b3UgbW92ZSB5b3VyIHdpbmcgYmFjayB0byB0 aGUgM+KAnSBvciA04oCdIHBvc2l0aW9uIHlvdSBzaG91bGQgZ2V0IGFib3V0IDcgcG91bmRzIG9m IHdlaWdodCBvbiB0aGUgdGFpbHdoZWVsIGluIHRoZSBsZXZlbC1mbGlnaHQgY29uZmlndXJhdGlv biB0byB3ZWlnaCwgaWU6ICB5b3VyIHRvcCBsb25nZXJvbiBpcyBsZXZlbC4NCg0KSSBoYWQgc29t ZW9uZSBnZW50bHkgZ3VhcmQgbXkgdGFpbHdoZWVsIHdpdGggdGhlaXIgaGFuZCB3aGlsZSB3ZSBk aWQgdGhlIHdlaWdodCBhbmQgYmFsYW5jZSBhdCBpdCB3b3VsZG7igJl0IGhhdmUgdGFrZW4gbXVj aCBmb3IgYSBzbGlnaHQgYnJlZXplIG9yIHNvbWVvbmUgdG8gYnVtcCB0aGUgcGxhbmUgZm9yIGl0 DQp0byBnbyBvdmVyIG9uIHRoZSBub3NlLg0KDQpBbHNvIG1ha2Ugc3VyZSB5b3UgZWl0aGVyIHNo b3J0ZW4geW91ciByZWFyIGNhYmFuZXMgdG8gYmUgMeKAnSBzaG9ydGVyIHRoYW4gdGhlIGZyb250 IGNhYmFuZXMgKG9yIG1ha2UgbmV3IGZyb250IGNhYmFuZXMgMeKAnSBsb25nZXIgdGhhbiB5b3Vy IHJlYXIgY2FiYW5lcykgYmVmb3JlIHlvdXIgMXN0IHRlc3QgZmxpZ2h0Lg0KKFNlZSBQLkYuIEJl Y2vigJlzICAucGRmIHJlcG9ydCBpbiB0aGUgYXJjaGl2ZXMgb24gUmlibGV0dCB2cy4gUGlldCB3 aW5nIGluY2lkZW5jZSkNCg0KTWlrZSBDLg0KT2hpbw0KDQoNCg0K ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bratfest IV Reminder From: Ken Bickers Jack, my son, Kevin, and I are looking forward to the bratfest. We'll be arriving Thursday afternoon if the weather gods smile upon us. Cheers, Ken On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 5:32 AM, Jack wrote: > Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to > join us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below. > > * Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at > Brodhead Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge > of the field by the white fence. > http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C37-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg > > We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. When they are gone, > the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for the 45 foot brown > and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope for great weather! > We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & Susan Five One > Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor * > > > Sent from my iPad > Jack Textor > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:19 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance From: "Don Emch" Mike P., If your gear and airframe is set up the same as Mike's then listen to what he has to say. Now to start a little more head scratchin'... if your cabanes are vertical and you are indeed set up like Mike's, you're actually tail heavy. :o But, of course as you move your wing back you'll add some weight to that tail and lighten it up. Aerodynamically that is. Clear as mud, right. :D Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427166#427166 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bratfest IV Reminder From: Gene Rambo Jack, I will be there with my family. My little guy Will looks forward to i t every year. He has already asked about it!! Gene On Jul 22, 2014, at 7:32 AM, Jack wrote: > Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to j oin us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below. > Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the f ield by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C3 7-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. W hen they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for t he 45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope fo r great weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & S usan Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > > > Sent from my iPad > Jack Textor > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:44 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements! The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch, all-Am erican barnstormer, ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is cor recteth. My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the year s of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should position his wing at 3" aft of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to move the wing back to the 4" aft of vertical position but since Mike weighs les s he doesn't need to move his wing back as far as I did. The only time I've seen cabanes vertica l are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-long nosed Piets with 65 Continentals on them. Mike C. Ohio ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance From: Gene Rambo So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical?? Gene On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, L LC]" wrote: > The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements! The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch, all-Am erican barnstormer, > ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is co rrecteth. > > My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the yea rs of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should p osition his wing at 3=9D aft > of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to mov e the wing back to the 4=9D aft of vertical position but since Mike we ighs less he doesn=99t need to move > his wing back as far as I did. The only time I=99ve seen cabane s vertical are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-lo ng nosed Piets with 65 Continentals on them. > > Mike C. > Ohio > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:36 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance It'll look like an Anteater. Serously, if you send me your W&B data I can calculate where the engine's cg needs to be . But my guess is it'll be one of those "Long Nose" Pietenpols. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical?? Gene On Jul 22, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" wrote: The wise man frometh the East hath spoken truth about thy wing movements! The owner/operator of NX899DE, the straight-shooting, Don Emch, all-American barnstormer, ride giver, nice guy, snow-ski experienced Pietenpol pilot from Ohio is correcteth. My Kentucky windage (based on a lot of facts and measurements over the years of pilot weight vs. wing shift position) predicts that Mike Perez should position his wing at 3" aft of vertical. If Mike was 200 pounds like I am I would advise him to move the wing back to the 4" aft of vertical position but since Mike weighs less he doesn't need to move his wing back as far as I did. The only time I've seen cabanes vertical are on Ford Piets with that heavy engine up front or the super-long nosed Piets with 65 Continentals on them. Mike C. Ohio ================================== >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ================================== cs.com ================================== matronics.com/contribution ================================== ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:42 PM PST US From: Jack Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bratfest IV Reminder Great guys! Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 22, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Jack wrote: > > Have not heard much chatter, hope message is getting out. A reminder to j oin us Friday at 11:30. Travel safe all! Details below. > Piet friends, Susan and I are looking forward to hosting lunch at Brodhead Friday, July 25, 11:30 to 12:30. We will be located on the SE edge of the f ield by the white fence. http://www.eaa431.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/C3 7-Fly-In-Diagram.jpg We will have a 100 brats, salad, chips and watermelon. W hen they are gone, the y are gone. Please bring a drink and chair. Look for t he 45 foot brown and black Thor diesel. Looking forward to it, let's hope fo r great weather! We will be arriving Thursday departing Saturday AM. Jack & S usan Five One Five 490-5177 Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > > > Sent from my iPad > Jack Textor > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance From: "William Wynne" Mike Cuy: Friendly suggestion here: Resist giving Mike P. advice. He would be much better off with a real calculation than your 'Kentucky' guess. Your comments about Mikes plane being just like yours don't hold water for two reasons. One you have not posted your exact W&B numbers and neither has Mike P. Maybe if mike saw your numbers, he would shoot for something different. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second, Mike P. has a different airfoil than you do We are just about to do some actual measurements on this issue, for you to advise Mike to Make his Cabanes a specific length, a week before we have more data is poor advice. Your advice is based on one report you read from Don's plane. Contrast this with the fact that unlike you, I have seen Don's plane in person, I have further detail rigging info on it, W&B data, and I did the W&B project. Maybe I am in a much better position to say that Mike P. could wait for a bit more data Honestly, you have no idea on how Mike Ps W&B even looks compard to Don's or what effect this might have on incidence. Until next week I don't either, but I am not the one telling Mike Ps how to build his cabanes today either. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike, for being a guy who works for NASA, I would think that you of all builders would understand that making a blanket statement about all cabanes on a very diverse group of planes based solely on a sample size of one plane (Don's) is very poor science. How good do you think the W&B project would have been if you just found one guy who said he liked the way he plane flew, weighed it, and then told every other builder from then on to make his plane just like that? --------------------------------------------------------- Mike Cuy, if you have a PPL, than you have to know how to do a W&B calculation. Can you explain why you are reluctant to just get Mike Ps number and do this for him? I did this for Chris Rusch last week, and if you will not do it for Mike P, I will be glad to. Ryan and I did the whole W&B project just so that people whold keep using 'Kentucky' guesses, they could just calculate things exactly -------------------------------------------- Mike P. If Mike Cuy can't/won't do it for you, send me the numbers. Level the fuselage, and put a 5 pound weight on the horizontal stabilizer in line with the tail wheeel axle. When you do the calculation, mathmaticaly remove this as a tear weight. If you don't know how to do this, just send me the raw numbers, I will use it to show everyone how this is done ------------------------------------------------------- Right off the bat, I am going to say that any Piet that has the axle so far back that it has no tail weight in level position, has a very good change of ending up on its back if it has brakes. Mike P, your plane may not have this issue, because until we see the numbers, we don't know where your wing should be. If you have not gotten the W&B articles from Doc, I highly suggest that you do so. If you ignore this resource in favor of the 'Kentucky' method, you may not like the results, and it is my guess that none of the people who are offering off the cuff advice will show up at your house and help you rebuild your plane. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Cuy, You are a great guy in many respects and you have done a lot to promote Pietenpols and this is much appreciated, but I am politely suggesting that offering 'Kentucky' information detracts from your contribution to Pietenpols. Your efforts to promote the design have been sterling, why tarnish this with poor advice when anyone with PPL level skills and our W&B articles could do an exact calculation for Mike P? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Cuy, if you would really like to show me that your own plane is an excellent enough example for Mike P to be following with confidence, the very simple thing for you to do is make your next post to this list your real weight and balance that you fly your own plane with. If you are flying at 19, 19.5 or 20", perhaps mike should know this and not directly copy your plane and just hope it turns out well. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427179#427179 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:21 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance William-Mike Perez has copies of my W&B paperwork. He lives 15 minutes f rom me. My advice to him on his particular Piet is sound. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:21 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Randy Bush From: "William Wynne" For any builders who have not yet met Randy, You can click on this link to a story I wrote about him last year: http://flycorvair.net/2013/07/11/randy-bushs-pietenpol-hits-500-hours/ I have known Randy a long time, and have always felt on the same page with him since we shared the thought that homebuilding, the hours in your shop are vital part of protecting your sanity in modern life. The blue print at the bottom of the story covers this theme. --------------------------------------------------- There are also some good photos of his plane at Oshkosh last year at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2013/08/12/brodhead-oshkosh-and-beyond-2013/ He parked it right behind our booth, and that is were the EAA did the story for the Experimenter. Mary Jones, my mentor in aviation writing who has worked for the EAA for 30 years personally found the writer and stewarded the story through publications. She is arguable the best Journalist in Light aviation. If there is ever a story that needs telling correctly, steer it to her attention. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427186#427186 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:01 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance From: "William Wynne" Mike Cuy, If Mike P. has your W&B data, it seems he doesn't yet understand it well enough to use it. Saying thing like "7 pounds on the tailwheel" is not an adequate plan, and anyone who understands W&B knows that is a meaningless comment, it says nothing about where his CG is, just how far it is from the axle. My point is that the useful numbers are very easy to calculate, and if Mike P. types in his data just like Chris R. Did, he can have an accurate calculation from Jack, Ryan or myself, and have a real plan. ------------------------------------------------------- Our weight and balance data has at least six A-65 Piet examples in it. If Mike P sends his data in he will have the benefit of a professional calculation and the comparison to several other examples. Mike Cuy, you know something about planes, and Mike P. is very new and green. Obviously he looks up to your experience and you are acting as some type of advisor to him. There is a responsibility to that, and in my book, you tell new guys to get as much information as they can from sources with greater experience, even if you don't personally find that source pleasant. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Mike P, here is my last comment ever on your project, unless you specifically ask me to teach you something, you will not hear from me: If you think Mike Cuy is a great guy, a better human than me, you are absolutely right. I have met Mike Cuy and I think is probably a better person that me. You are new to aviation, and you are at a decision point. Follow what good, pleasant people say.....or listen to anybody who might have the answer, even if you find that person distasteful. This is very importiant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 25 years ago I decided that as a mechanic, the people who put their families in planes I worked on were counting on me to have a very high level of expertise in my craft. I saw this as morally obligating me to learn my craft at great depth, no matter who I had to learn it from. Many of the things I know about planes came from men I would not want as a father in law or a neighbor, far less any kind of friend. None the less, they knew things that I needed to know to be better at my craft. If you choose to restrict your learning to just instructors you like, think are nice, go to the same church, don't use foul language, or say tactless things, then maybe you can't honestly say that you have really done everything in your control to minimize risk for your eventual passengers. Think that over, answer it for yourself, make sure the answer you get isn't just good enough for today, but good enough for the day after you have an accident and someone gets hurt. --------------------------------------------- One more point Mike P: You mention God in every post. The finest human being I ever met in aviation was my friend Bob Bean. In my life, I have never met a man of greater faith, not even close. You can see Bob's picture with his wife Sara here: http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-management-reference-page/ , They are both dead, a single stupid mistake in weather in a Glassair III. I am sure Bob's God protected his soul, but God did not protect his mortal life. I am very glad you soloed a plane, it is a big step, congratulations, but it concerned me that you thought it was no different than driving a car. I have been flying for 20 years, and every single take off puts me in a state of awareness of risk far beyond anything I feel driving to the gas station. Maybe I took your comment wrong, but it concerned me because people don't prepare for risk they do not perceive, and it didn't sound like you felt at risk, to say, something like the engine quitting. Bob expressed to me many times that he felt "protected" when flying, but I did not ask him to elaborate, perhaps he was just expressing the disposition of his soul, not his physical being. Something to think about. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427188#427188 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance From: "jarheadpilot82" Mike (Cuy), Just a thought, but if "Kentucky windage" is acceptable for setting the cabanes, is it okay for trammeling the wings, or setting the camber of the wheels? Or any host of other choices in building an airplane? If data is available, and freely available at that, why is is so wrong to use it? I am no aerodynamicist, and only a budding builder, but I do know that most of these questions can be answered with something beyond "TLAR" (that looks about right). -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427189#427189 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.