Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:04 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment (Clif Dawson)
2. 04:20 AM - Re: Gene's boat anchor (bender)
3. 05:24 AM - brat vest and Gene's new nose... (Douwe Blumberg)
4. 05:29 AM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment (Michael Perez)
5. 06:05 AM - Re: Small Continental Conn Rod Bolts (Gene Rambo)
6. 07:29 AM - Re: weight and balance (Bill Church)
7. 09:29 AM - Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math has already been done for you (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
8. 09:45 AM - Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math has already been done for you (Michael Perez)
9. 10:27 AM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (curtdm(at)gmail.com)
10. 10:53 AM - Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math has already been done for you (Dan Yocum)
11. 11:22 AM - Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math has already been done for you (Michael Perez)
12. 11:25 AM - One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (aerocarjake)
13. 11:32 AM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (jarheadpilot82)
14. 11:36 AM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (Gary Boothe)
15. 11:43 AM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (aerocarjake)
16. 12:55 PM - Re: Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (Jack)
17. 12:58 PM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (AircamperN11MS)
18. 02:13 PM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (nightmare)
19. 03:00 PM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (aerocarjake)
20. 03:16 PM - Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math has already been done for you (Dan Yocum)
21. 03:40 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (dgaldrich)
22. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (jim hyde)
23. 05:36 PM - Re: weight and balance (Larry Williams)
24. 05:46 PM - phone # for Larry W (Douwe Blumberg)
25. 05:50 PM - Re: weight and balance (jarheadpilot82)
26. 06:17 PM - Re: phone # for Larry W (jarheadpilot82)
27. 06:31 PM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (tools)
28. 08:02 PM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (tkreiner)
29. 08:45 PM - Re: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment (Clif Dawson)
30. 08:45 PM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (Gene Rambo)
31. 09:02 PM - Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! (tools)
32. 11:17 PM - Re: Bratfest IV Reminder (curtdm(at)gmail.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
It's a little unnerving alright. BUT...How are you
attaching the strut ends? Hmmmm? With
bolts drilled through holes in the tube. Right?
Yes.
So, what's the difference between holes
near the ends and a hole in the middle?
Just location for the purpose of changing
one long column into two short ones.
Oh, and just for the record I'm not advocating
that hole be in the exact center. As noted a
number of times this connection must be
made off center to limit destructive harmonic
vibration.
Clif
Interesting, I have seen several Piets with jury struts bolted through
the flying struts but I didn't have the nerve to drill holes in mine
(doesn't mean that there is any problem doing it that way).
rh
I was very surprised to see that the kit uses 2, 3/16" bolts
through each wing strut for the jury attachment with an insert to
prevent crushing.
Mike Perez
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Gene's boat anchor |
Gene and I have had a couple of conversations about boat anchors and glider rides.
I have an A-65 on the bench next to a bunch of model A pieces. I really hate
the idea of not flying my model A but it's getting old . I have yet to resemble
the A after it quit a month or so ago. I have new pistons and I still need to
open the bores a bit I believe. I still don't have a good answer about the pistons
scoring. I'm going to open the bores to get the .005 clearance and run
it again but I'm wondering about the confidence to fly it. How many glider rides
can I have.
Jeff Faith
sdf
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427196#427196
Message 3
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| Subject: | brat vest and Gene's new nose... |
Jack,
Marci and I plan to be there and enjoy your hospitality. Thank you!
Gene,
I faced the same issue when I changed my Ford for the C-90. I really wanted
to keep the nose as short as possible, so my answer was to make my engine as
heavy as possible. I left on the old heavy starter, heavy generator and
mounted the batt up on the engine mount and didn't worry about saving weight
(obviously) on the cowling. I used Don Emch's mount jig and the CG ended up
just right. The nose is maybe an inch longer than my ford installation was
and I believe I had shoved the Ford forward three inches.
Douwe
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
I agree Cliff. I do not think it is a good idea to drill a hole through the
aluminum wing strut, insert a 3/32 eye bolt and be done.- That would cre
ate a weak point in the structure where the strut could fold right at that
eye bolt. However, if an insert is used, that insert not only prevents the
aluminum wing strut from being crushed under the eye bolt, it also prevents
the strut itself from collapsing at that spot from bending loads. This ins
ert acts like a spine inside the wing strut, it could be any length down th
rough the length of the wing strut, if the strut was going to fold under be
nding loads, it woud do it on either/both sides of this insert/spine...wher
e there are no holes drilled...where the strut is fully intact.=0A=0A-=0A
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst
engine start complete!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Small Continental Conn Rod Bolts |
Sure. Thanks!
Gene
On Jul 21, 2014, at 1:03 PM, "tkreiner" <tkreiner@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you missed the Conn Rod Bolts last year, and want the security of knowing
the ones you're building that $4000. engine with are going to hold together, you
might be interested. I'm bringing more to Brodhead this week.
>
> These are Sealed packages of 10 NOS (New Old Stock) Conn Rod Bolts, Continental
P/N 530213.
>
> Will fit ALL A Series, C Series, O-200, O-300, and several more small Continental
engines.
>
> Shoot me an email and I'll make sure I bring enough.
>
> These are over $17.70 EACH from ACS,, but the 10 pce bag is only $100. to Piet
Builders. Savings to you $41.+ and you get 2 extra bolts.
>
> --------
> Tom Kreiner
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427071#427071
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/conn_rod_bolts_134.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
Of course, every Piet is different, so this is by no means a definitive answer,
but in order to keep the cabanes vertical, with an A-65, I think the motor mount
would likely need to be extended about 8".
I have no idea what the relationship to your "cabanas" would be, though.
Bill C.
Gene wrote:
> So, how long does my new mount need to be to keep my cabanas vertical??
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427204#427204
Message 7
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| Subject: | Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math |
has already been done for you
For those of you who missed this excellent post (and calculation---thank yo
u Bill!) from Bill Church on July 4th
it might be of possible interest for those using the Riblett airfoil.
Mike C.
There was a discussion about wing incidence about three years ago, and at t
hat time I created a couple of drawings to illustrate the relationship betw
een the cabane strut lengths, and also between the chord line vs the bottom
of the spars. They are attached again to this posting.
For the "to the plans" Pietenpol, the 1" difference in cabane struts create
s a 2 degree angle. Added to this is a 1 1/2 degree angle formed between t
he chord line and the bottoms of the spars (since that's where the cabanes
attach). So the effective angle of incidence between the airfoil chord and
the top longeron is 3.5 degrees.
For the Riblett 612 airfoil, there is a 2.1 degree angle between the chord
line and the bottoms of the spars. So, if a Riblett 612 airfoil is mounted
on "stock" cabanes (front 1" longer than rear), the effective AofI would be
4.1 degrees.
If the front and rear cabanes are made equal lengths, with the Riblett, the
effective angle would be reduced to only 2.1 degrees - almost 1 1/2 degre
es less than the "to the plans" Piet.
In order to produce the same 3.5 degree angle, but using the Riblett 612, t
here should be a difference of approximately 11/16" difference in cabane le
ngths (front vs back).
Food for thought.
Bill C.
http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_incidence_145.pdf<http://forums.mat
ronics.com/files/piet_incidence_145.pdf>
http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_incidence_159.pdf<http://forums.
matronics.com/files/riblett_incidence_159.pdf>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
I have various length pairs of cabane struts on hand, so I can switch them
as needed. I would need to figure out how to support the entire wing to swa
p out the cabanes. =0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike
Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Abby and I really hoped to come but we'll be missing it this year. Have fun and
enjoy the beautiful weather.
--------
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427212#427212
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
On 07/23/2014 11:45 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> I have various length pairs of cabane struts on hand, so I can switch
> them as needed. I would need to figure out how to support the entire
> wing to swap out the cabanes.
Oh, so you've got extra fuel line (if your tank is in the center
section), pitot system tubes, aileron cables, cross bracing cables, and
lift stuts, too?
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
yocum137@gmail.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
Dan...what?- I'm not saying I am making my cabanes 3" longer, I'm saying
that I could go from my all even cabanes currently, to swapping out the fro
nt and/or rear to change the angle of incidence.- I have enough adjustmen
t built into all other components to make changes, as I planned on possibly
needing to make some as flight tests get underway.=0A=0A=0A-=0AIf God is
your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AFirst engine s
tart complete!
Message 12
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| Subject: | One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
Hello good Piet-ple,
Well I routed the pockets in my replacement spars a couple days ago. What I didn't
notice was that the router bit, although very tight, was slipping slightly
in the collet which was making each pass slightly deeper...! By the time I noticed
this, my pockets were about .345" deep. Well that only leaves a web thickness
of .31" and it's supposed to be .50"...!
So enjoy a couple photos of my beautiful, but now useless spar(s)....!!!
I purchased a new Porter-Cable router (it's really nice) and also placed the order
yesterday with Aircraft Spruce for new spar blanks.
I've really got this spar thing figured out so when the new planks arrive I should
be able to cut and rout them without any trouble - he said carefully...!
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427218#427218
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spars_with_too_thin_web_139.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_router_jig_914.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_pocket_568.jpg
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
Jake,
All I can say is, "Ouch!" But thanks for sharing with us the downs as well as the
ups. It may help the next guy NOT make that mistake.
You do such great work, though, the next ones are going to be awesome!
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427219#427219
Message 14
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| Subject: | One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
Wall art is an important part of every hangar!
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of aerocarjake
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:25 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...!
--> <flight.jake@gmail.com>
Hello good Piet-ple,
Well I routed the pockets in my replacement spars a couple days ago. What I
didn't notice was that the router bit, although very tight, was slipping
slightly in the collet which was making each pass slightly deeper...! By
the time I noticed this, my pockets were about .345" deep. Well that only
leaves a web thickness of .31" and it's supposed to be .50"...!
So enjoy a couple photos of my beautiful, but now useless spar(s)....!!!
I purchased a new Porter-Cable router (it's really nice) and also placed the
order yesterday with Aircraft Spruce for new spar blanks.
I've really got this spar thing figured out so when the new planks arrive I
should be able to cut and rout them without any trouble - he said
carefully...!
Jake
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427218#427218
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spars_with_too_thin_web_139.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_router_jig_914.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_pocket_568.jpg
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
They may make nice shelves.....
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427221#427221
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Will miss you!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 23, 2014, at 12:27 PM, "curtdm(at)gmail.com" <curtdm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Abby and I really hoped to come but we'll be missing it this year. Have fun
and enjoy the beautiful weather.
>
> --------
> Curt Merdan
> Flower Mound, TX
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427212#427212
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
Can someone else use the material for cap strips or otherwise? Thinking out loud.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427230#427230
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
crap that sucks. could have happened to the best of us. what does a spar go for
now a days?
--------
Paul Donahue
Started 8-3-12
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427236#427236
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
They are $156 each. I bought three - one "extra" to avert screwing up another
one - in a karma sort of way. It's kinda like bringing an umbrella so it doesn't
rain. I know if I buy three I will only use two that I actually need...!
I can always use the remaining spruce some day.
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427237#427237
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the |
math has already been done for you
On 07/23/2014 01:22 PM, Michael Perez wrote:
> Dan...what? I'm not saying I am making my cabanes 3" longer, I'm saying
> that I could go from my all even cabanes currently, to swapping out the
> front and/or rear to change the angle of incidence. I have enough
> adjustment built into all other components to make changes, as I planned
> on possibly needing to make some as flight tests get underway.
The angle between the lift struts and the wing is about 30 degrees.
sine theta=opposite/hypotenuse. An increase of 1/2" in the "opposite"
direction will increase the length of the hypotenuse by 1 inch. Do you
really have an inch of adjustment in your lift strut forks? (honest
question - I never needed to adjust the forks on N8031 when I owned it).
What about the turnbuckles attaching your aileron cables? Can you
increase those a 1/2"?
Let us know how it works out.
Dan
--
Dan Yocum
yocum137@gmail.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
Sue and I will be there, just to insure that nothing goes to waste, of course...
Dave
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427242#427242
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
why route them??? =0A=0A=0AOn Wednesday, July 23, 2014 5:14 PM, aerocarjake
<flight.jake@gmail.com> wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message pos
ted by: "aerocarjake" <flight.jake@gmail.com>=0A=0AThey are $156 each.- I
bought three - one "extra" to avert screwing up another one - in a karma s
ort of way. It's kinda like bringing an umbrella so it doesn't rain.- I k
now if I buy three I will only use two that I actually need...!- I can al
ways use the remaining spruce some day.=0A=0A--------=0AJake Schultz - cura
tor,=0ANewport Way Air Museum- (OK, it's just my home)=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead
this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p
=========================0A
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
====
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
Geez!!! Where's the friggin' delete button!!
--------
L.V.Williams
XCG, XCMR, ATP
USHPA, EAA, AMA, EPP
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427246#427246
Message 24
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| Subject: | phone # for Larry W |
Does anyone have Larry William's cell number? I seem to have an old one and
I wanted to see if we could hook up at Poplar Grove tomorrow to fly in
together.
Douwe
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: weight and balance |
Larry,
Just to the right of the main part of the keyboard, just below the insert key on
most keyboards. If you don't like the discussion, that is where you will find
it.
If you use it, no need to broadcast it as it would defeat the purpose of the delete,
don't you think?
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427247#427247
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: phone # for Larry W |
Douwe,
I dont have Larry's number, but if you want Mike Danford's contact info, email
me or call me. You have my number. I think that he may be flying in tomorrow as
well. I am flying in on Friday - to Madison.
I wish it were Brodhead.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
USMC, USMCR, ATP
BVD DVD PDQ BBQ
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
Not gonna fault ya for the new router, but be aware, it happens with them as well.
Things that will help. SQUEAKY CLEAN AND DRY shank and collet (new bits sometimes
have a light coat of oil to prevent rust). Nice and tight. Several shallow
passes reduce the forces that cause this, rather than one deep pass. ANY
SIGNS of ridges between passes are cause for alarm, stop and double check.
NICE SHARP bit also.
VERY sorry to hear this happened to you. The spars are still usable for some long
fuse pieces... I've had it happen quite a bit over the years, but thankfully
not on something so expensive.
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
It doesn't only happen to spars.... Almost 30 years ago, while managing a small
job shop machine shop, the bosses son-in-law (Yup, one of those!), forgot to
fully tighten the end mill he was using.
The result was an 11 + inch groove in the table of a brand new Bridgeport. The
kid was only about 24 or 25 at the time, and, because he was the owners son-in-law,
I couldn't fire him. In truth, at that point, he needed a horse whipping,
but that's another story, I suppose.
So, learn from the mistake; at least your damage was limited to a $156 piece of
wood, not a brand new $13,500. Bridgeport.
--------
Tom Kreiner
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut Attachment |
Huh? I never said don't do it Mike. I did say holes are
already being drilled and from a tensile strength
standpoint this is just one more.
Since you are capturing that long tube near the
middle, no matter what method you use, you are
creating two short tubes. You could actually cut
the tube in two, connect those together again with
bolted fittings, tie in the jury strut and have the same
thing, only heavier.
The whole reason for doing the jury strut thing is to
create significantly greater resistance to bending
under compression loads, like hard landings and
strong, sudden downdrafts. Each of those shorter
tubes has much, much greater resistance to bending
under load.
If there was only tension load and never any
compression loads, bending would not be an
issue. In fact these massive struts would be
redundant. Wire cables would work just fine.
Look at your average sailboat.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aluminum Wing Strut/Jury Strut
Attachment
I agree Cliff. I do not think it is a good idea to drill a hole
through the aluminum wing strut, insert a 3/32 eye bolt and be done.
That would create a weak point in the structure where the strut could
fold right at that eye bolt. However, if an insert is used, that insert
not only prevents the aluminum wing strut from being crushed under the
eye bolt, it also prevents the strut itself from collapsing at that spot
from bending loads. This insert acts like a spine inside the wing strut,
it could be any length down through the length of the wing strut, if the
strut was going to fold under bending loads, it woud do it on
either/both sides of this insert/spine...where there are no holes
drilled...where the strut is fully intact.
If God is your co-pilot, switch seats
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
First engine start complete!
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
07/23/14
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
I might be late on this observation, but does that necessarily condemn the spars??
It would be legal to glue capstrips to a fairly thin web ( not sure I have
seen a min). Are we sure these dimensions are unacceptable??
Gene
On Jul 23, 2014, at 1:25 PM, "aerocarjake" <flight.jake@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello good Piet-ple,
>
> Well I routed the pockets in my replacement spars a couple days ago. What I didn't
notice was that the router bit, although very tight, was slipping slightly
in the collet which was making each pass slightly deeper...! By the time I
noticed this, my pockets were about .345" deep. Well that only leaves a web thickness
of .31" and it's supposed to be .50"...!
>
> So enjoy a couple photos of my beautiful, but now useless spar(s)....!!!
>
> I purchased a new Porter-Cable router (it's really nice) and also placed the
order yesterday with Aircraft Spruce for new spar blanks.
>
> I've really got this spar thing figured out so when the new planks arrive I should
be able to cut and rout them without any trouble - he said carefully...!
>
> Jake
>
> --------
> Jake Schultz - curator,
> Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427218#427218
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/spars_with_too_thin_web_139.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_router_jig_914.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/spar_pocket_568.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: One good mistake deserves another - arghhhh...! |
It's completely legal, it's experimental... but man, they're like FORTY PERCENT
thinner...
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Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Bratfest IV Reminder |
What a tease. Tonight I had to fly past C37 on the way to DSM. I can't go
Brodhead for one if Jack's brats or see his project because my stay is too
short.
--------
Curt Merdan
Flower Mound, TX
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