---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/25/14: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:56 AM - Thinking Out Loud (Michael Perez) 2. 06:21 AM - Re: Thinking Out Loud (Jack Phillips) 3. 06:47 AM - Re: Thinking Out Loud (shad bell) 4. 07:17 AM - New Tiny Ford Fiesta Engine... Wonder how much it weighs... (Mark Roberts) 5. 07:20 AM - Re: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math has already been done for you (Steven Dortch) 6. 07:44 AM - Sitting here wishing I was there (AircamperN11MS) 7. 08:11 AM - Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 8. 08:38 AM - Re: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short (Michael Perez) 9. 08:42 AM - Re: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short (jim hyde) 10. 05:25 PM - Re: Thinking Out Loud (John Woods) 11. 09:05 PM - Re: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short (William Wynne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:27 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thinking Out Loud The chat on jury struts has got me to wondering about their use. If I recal l correctly, the original wing struts were steel and ribbed for strength an d these did not require jury struts; "plain" steel and aluminum do.- The jurys are an external brace to keep the wing struts from flexing, so why no t brace them internally? (Could be done lighter and remove the added drag o f the jurys.)- Thinking about the jury strut thread, would a length of al uminum bar fitted into the aluminum Carlson wing strut at the proper locati on, strengthen the strut just the same? If this insert needed to be very lo ng, it could be drilled out lengthwise some to lighten it. (perhaps some sq uare tube could be used)=0A=0A=0APicture the small Carlson wing strut with a 3/4" by 3/4" aluminum insert fitted near the center inside. Say the inser t is 4" long with a 3/8" hole drilled through the center of it lengthwise t o lighten It (or square tube) and is held in place by a single bolt through it and the strut.=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretakerAero=0AFirst engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:37 AM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Thinking Out Loud Michael, the short answer is "NO". The jury struts are there to prevent buckling of the lift struts under compressive loads, which can occur in turbulence or in a hard landing. Buckling has been fairly extensively studies, and the mathematician Leonhard Euler developed an equation which predicts buckling with remarkable accuracy, assuming the materials are homogenous: F=\frac{\pi^2 EI}{(KL)^2} where F= maximum or critical force (vertical load on column), E= modulus of elasticity , I= area moment of inertia , L= unsupported length of column, K= column effective length factor , whose value depends on the conditions of end support of the column, as follows. For both ends pinned (hinged, free to rotate), K= 1.0. For both ends fixed, K= 0.50. For one end fixed and the other end pinned, K= 0.699.... For one end fixed and the other end free to move laterally, K= 2.0. K Lis the effective length of the column. Examination of this formula reveals the following interesting facts with regard to the load-bearing ability of slender columns. 1. Elasticity and not the compressive strength of the materials of the column determines the critical load. 2. The critical load is directly proportional to the second moment of area of the cross section. 3. The boundary conditions have a considerable effect on the critical load of slender columns. The boundary conditions determine the mode of bending and the distance between inflection points on the deflected column. The inflection points in the deflection shape of the column are the points at which the curvature of the column change sign and are also the points at which the internal bending moments are zero. The closer together the inflection points are, the higher the resulting capacity of the column. In order to safely do without jury struts, you would need stiffer material (steel is roughly 3 times stiffer than aluminum) and with a high second moment of area (which basically means it need to be wider in all directions). A long slender piece like a lift strut doesn't have a very large critical force, or force required to initiate buckling. Even if your lift struts were solid aluminum, my guess (without running through the calculations) is that you would find the critical force to be in a range that is easily imposed during turbulence or hard landings, where the force is directly proportional to the negative G-loads imposed on the airplane. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 8:56 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Thinking Out Loud The chat on jury struts has got me to wondering about their use. If I recall correctly, the original wing struts were steel and ribbed for strength and these did not require jury struts; "plain" steel and aluminum do. The jurys are an external brace to keep the wing struts from flexing, so why not brace them internally? (Could be done lighter and remove the added drag of the jurys.) Thinking about the jury strut thread, would a length of aluminum bar fitted into the aluminum Carlson wing strut at the proper location, strengthen the strut just the same? If this insert needed to be very long, it could be drilled out lengthwise some to lighten it. (perhaps some square tube could be used) Picture the small Carlson wing strut with a 3/4" by 3/4" aluminum insert fitted near the center inside. Say the insert is 4" long with a 3/8" hole drilled through the center of it lengthwise to lighten It (or square tube) and is held in place by a single bolt through it and the strut. If God is your co-pilot, switch seats Mike Perez Karetaker Aero First engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:31 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Thinking Out Loud I would keep it simple and just use jury struts.=C2- Trying to reduce dra g significantly on a Piet is like trying to empty out the Great Lakes with a coffee cup.=C2- A simple strap-clamp with a bolt at the strut, and asso ciated wing fittings and it's done.=C2- Or on the strut, =C2-you could drill a hole, weld a thru bushing and use an eye-bolt.=C2- Many different ways to attach to the strut.=C2- You probably could do as you mention by stiffening the lift strut, but=C2-accuracy, fit, complexity and access t o inspect the assembly of a tube inside the lift strut (fretting of the tub es from vibration, and flexing)=C2-would leave me to think the old fashio n=C2-jury strut =C2-would be better.=0A=C2-=0AJust my .02=0A=C2-=0A Shad =0A=0A=0AOn Friday, July 25, 2014 9:28 AM, Jack Phillips wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AMichael, the short answer is =9CNO=9D.=C2-=0AThe jury struts are there to prevent buckling of th e lift struts under=0Acompressive loads, which can occur in turbulence or i n a hard landing.=C2- =0A=C2- =0ABuckling has been fairly extensively =0Astudies, and the mathematician Leonhard Euler developed an equation whic h=0Apredicts buckling with remarkable accuracy, assuming the materials are =0Ahomogenous: =0A=C2- =0Awhere =0A= maximum or critical force (vertic al load=0Aon column), =0A= modulus of elasticity, =0A= area moment of i nertia, =0A= unsupported length of column, =0A= column effective length factor,=0Awhose value depends on the conditions of end support of the colu mn, as follows. =0AFor both ends pinned (hinged, free to rotate), = 1.0. =0AFor both ends fixed, = 0.50. =0AFor one end fixed and the other end p inned, = 0.699.... =0AFor one end fixed and the other end free to=0Amove laterally, = 2.0. =0Ais the effective length of the column. =0AExaminatio n=0Aof this formula reveals the following interesting facts with regard to the load-bearing=0Aability of slender columns. =0A1. Elasticity and not the compressive strength of the materials of the column determines the crit ical load. =0A2. The critical load is directly proportional to the secon d moment of area of the cross section. =0A3. The boundary conditions hav e a considerable effect on the critical load of slender columns. The bounda ry conditions determine the mode of bending and the distance between inflec tion points on the deflected column. The inflection points in the deflectio n shape of the column are the points at which the curvature of the column c hange sign and are also the points at which the internal bending moments ar e zero. The closer together the inflection points are, the higher the resul ting capacity of the column. =0AIn order to safely do without jury struts, =0Ayou would need stiffer material (steel is roughly 3 times stiffer than =0Aaluminum) and with a high second moment of area (which basically means i t need=0Ato be wider in all directions).=C2- A long slender piece like a lift strut doesn=99t=0Ahave a very large critical force, or force req uired to initiate buckling. =0A=C2- =0AEven if your lift struts were soli d=0Aaluminum, my guess (without running through the calculations) is that y ou would=0Afind the critical force to be in a range that is easily imposed during=0Aturbulence or hard landings, where the force is directly proportio nal to the=0Anegative G-loads imposed on the airplane. =0A=C2- =0AJack Ph illips =0ANX899JP =0ASmith Mountain Lake, Virginia =0A=C2- =0A=0A________ ________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics. com=0A[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Micha el Perez=0ASent: Friday, July 25, 2014 8:56=0AAM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matro nics.com=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Thinking=0AOut Loud =0A=C2- =0AThe c hat on jury=0Astruts has got me to wondering about their use. If I recall c orrectly, the=0Aoriginal wing struts were steel and ribbed for strength and these did not=0Arequire jury struts; "plain" steel and aluminum do.=C2- The jurys are an external brace to=0Akeep the wing struts from flexing, so why not brace=0Athem internally? (Could be done lighter and remove the adde d drag of the jurys.)=C2- Thinking about the=0Ajury strut thread, would a length of aluminum bar fitted into the aluminum Carlson=0Awing strut at th e proper location, strengthen the=0Astrut just the same? If this insert nee ded to be very long, it could be drilled=0Aout lengthwise some to lighten i t. (perhaps some square tube could be used) =0A=C2- =0APicture the smal l Carlson wing strut with a=0A3/4" by 3/4" aluminum insert fitted near=0Ath e center inside. Say the insert is 4" long with a 3/8" hole drilled=0Athrou gh the center of it lengthwise to lighten It (or square tube) and is held =0Ain place by a single bolt through it and the strut. =0A=C2- =0AIf=0A God is your co-pilot, switch seats =0AMike=0APerez =0AKaretakerAero =0AF irst=0Aengine start complete! =0A=C2-=0A=C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matr onics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:29 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Tiny Ford Fiesta Engine... Wonder how much it weighs... From: "Mark Roberts" I am sure if Bernard were around today, he'd be messin' with this one in the nose of an AirCamper... INteresting article and new engine from Ford. "Ford's first three-piston motor is a 1.0-liter turbocharged powerhouse with an aluminum block the company says is small enough to fit on a sheet of letter paper or in a piece of carry-on luggage, with room to spare. " "Rated at 123 horsepower, it has just three more ponies than the Fiestas standard 1.6-liter four-cylinder, but it comes with a big jump in tire-twisting torque. Its rated at 125 lb-ft vs. 112 lb-ft, while a turbo over boost delivers up to 148 lb-ft in 15-second bursts." Maybe that over boost would come in handy if you see you are undershooting the runway and need that little bit of extra Oomph when you hit the throttle! Here's the link to the whole article... I'm staying with a 6 cylinder Corvair! http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2014/07/24/2014-ford-fiesta-sfe-test-drive/?intcmp=features Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427321#427321 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett vs. Pietenpol wing cabane strut length: the math has already been done for you From: Steven Dortch Just do it on one side and see how that works. Just joking. LOL Steve "wish i were going to Broadhead/Oshkosh' D On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Dan Yocum wrote: > Ah, well, then you'll have about 1.5" of play to take *out* of the rear > lift strut fork and 11/16" out of the aileron cable turnbuckles. Still not > a small amount IMO. > > -- > Dan Yocum > yocum137@gmail.com > > On Jul 24, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Michael Perez > wrote: > > Hello Dan. I see/hear what you are saying. However, my cabane > adjustment, if I make it, would be to lower the rear two. Considering that > my wings are currently level, or maybe slightly "sagging", (no > adjustments/tweaking have been made as of yet) and only the back cabanes > would be lowered, (11/16") if nothing else, I'll have some dihedral and/ or > washout. Since I have allowed room for adjustment on various components for > rigging/squaring, etc. I believe if I did change the rear cabanes, it > would be a non event. > > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats > Mike Perez > Karetaker Aero > First engine start complete! > > * > > ================================== > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ================================== > cs.com > ================================== > matronics.com/contribution > ================================== > > * > > * > > > * > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sitting here wishing I was there From: "AircamperN11MS" Just sitting in my office right now getting text for many telling me about their arrivals at Brodhead. It's going to be a loooong day at the office. You all enjoy and know that I really wish I was there. I will be in spirit. You all have fun now. Please post Pics. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427323#427323 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:44 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short Dear William Wynne, You're so right! My apologies. As I re-read Steve's e-mail below I see that yes, they were having trouble with their Corvair engine along this tr ip but no, it was the landing incident that caused them to stop their journey. (though I doubt they would have continued the trip anyway knowing they are having trouble with the engine.) And as far as making the progress and happenings of their flight public, Steve Williamson himself and EAA have both intentionally joined forces to m ake this wonderful flight very public as Steve created a Facebook page just this mon th to post progress about his trip (see https://www.facebook.com/profile. php?id=100007482977341&fref=ts) And my apologies for not posting my W&B data yet. You'll see that posted to the list early next week. You William, seem to be the only one intere sted in my W&B though but I'll be glad to post it anyway. Also you seem to be hung up on where I work for some reason and how that ma y/may not relate to how or when or with what specifics I can/cannot help an other builder or how I go about that and you also seem to be very hung up on nice guys/ guy s who tell it like it is and such but all of your hand waving in these area s and myriad of words just confuse people and cause them to glaze over and delete your otherwise awesome posts about the facts of W&B, construction and engine tips, and homebuilding in general but that is the neat part about American freedom of speech and Experimental aircraft bu ilders----it is an awesome, wide-open hobby, sport, and passion in many cas es and we are all free to give/take advice and help others along the way in the manner we see fit. Mike C. Ohio Greetings Mike, As you may already know, my partner and I are making plans to fly our Piete npol to Brodhead/Oshkosh from our home base at French Valley in southern Ca lifornia. It's an ambitious adventure we're planning, but, as Peter likes to say, "You just have to look at it as ten 150-mile cross-country flights. " (Yeah, each way!!) I hope that you are planning on attending the Brodhead fly-in this year. I look forward to seeing you again. Charlie Becker at EAA HQ has asked that I send him photos and updates on ou r progress so that he can post them on EAA's Facebook page. If you think a nyone else would be interested in following our progress, please let me kno w. I'm not a "blogger" or a social media type guy, but I'll do what I can. Hope to see you at Brodhead. Your friend, Steve Williamson, Pres. EAA Chapter 1279 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:43 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short I already have Mike C.'s Pietenpol W&B intel. and I would be very intereste d in seeing your Pietenpol W&B posted here too, William.- Any Pietenpol W &B numbers posted to the list would be of help to others to come, I would t hink.=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaret aker Aero=0AFirst engine start complete! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:46 AM PST US From: jim hyde Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short car engine in an airplane.. =0A=0A=0AOn Friday, July 25, 2014 10:18 AM, "C uy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A =0ADear William Wynne, =0A=C2- =0AYou=99re so right!=C2-=C2-=C2- My apologies.=C2-=C2- As I re-read Steve =99s e-mail below I see that yes, they were having trouble with their Co rvair engine along this trip =0Abut no, it was the landing incident that ca used them to stop their journey.=C2-=C2-=C2- (though I doubt they wou ld have continued the trip anyway knowing they =0Aare having trouble with t he engine.) =0A=C2- =0AAnd as far as making the progress and happenings o f their flight =C2-public,=C2- Steve Williamson himself and EAA have bo th intentionally joined forces to make this =0Awonderful flight very public as Steve created a Facebook page just this month to post progress about hi s trip=C2-=C2- (see https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100007482 977341&fref=ts) =0A=C2- =0AAnd my apologies for not posting my W&B data yet.=C2-=C2- You=99ll see that posted to the list early next wee k.=C2-=C2-=C2- You William, seem to be the only one interested in my W&B though =0Abut I=99ll be glad to post it anyway.=C2-=C2- =0A =C2- =0AAlso you seem to be hung up on where I work for some reason and h ow that may/may not relate to how or when or with what specifics I can/cann ot help another builder or =0Ahow I go about that and you also seem to be v ery hung up on nice guys/=C2- guys who tell it like it is and such but al l of your hand waving in these areas and myriad of words just confuse =0Ape ople and cause them to glaze over and delete your otherwise awesome posts a bout the facts of W&B,=C2- construction and engine tips, and homebuilding in general but that is =0Athe neat part about American freedom of speech a nd Experimental aircraft builders----it is an awesome, wide-open hobby, spo rt, and passion in many cases and we are all free =0Ato give/take advice an d help others along the way in the manner we see fit.=C2-=C2- =0A=C2 - =0AMike C. =0AOhio =0A=C2- =0A=C2- =0A=C2- =0AGreetings Mike, =0A =C2- =0AAs you may already know, my partner and I are making plans to fly our Pietenpol to Brodhead/Oshkosh from our home base at French Valley in s outhern California.=C2-=C2-It's an ambitious adventure we're planning, but, as Peter likes to say, "You just have to look at it as ten 150-mile cr oss-country flights."=C2- (Yeah, each way!!) =0A=C2- =0AI hope that you are planning on attending the Brodhead fly-in this year.=C2- I look forw ard to seeing you again. =0A=C2- =0ACharlie Becker at EAA HQ has asked th at I send him photos and updates on our progress so that he can post them o n EAA's Facebook page.=C2- If you think anyone else would be interested i n following our progress, please let me know.=C2- I'm not a "blogger" or a social media type guy, but I'll do what I can. =0A=C2- =0AHope to see y ou at Brodhead. =0A=C2- =0AYour friend, =0A=C2- =0ASteve Williamson, Pr =========================0A == ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:15 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Thinking Out Loud From: John Woods In addition to what Jack said, the jury struts also stop the struts from failing due to harmonic vibrations. This is why they are NOT attached at the midpoint of the strut. John W ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steve Williamson's Piet trip cut short From: "William Wynne" Mike Cuy, Just because Steve had a face book page for the adventure doesn't mean it is OK to broadcast his partners landing mishap. Your speculation that they would not have continued the trip is just that, for all you know he fouled a plug. Do you think they would have put the plane in a u-haul over that? -------------------------------------------- When I was young, astronauts and the engineers of NASA were my heroes. Many of my friends from Embry-Riddle went on to masters and PhDs in engineering and Physics, motivated by the chance that they might work for NASA. It was the goal of the best and the brightest. I have a hard time understanding how a person with the anti- reading, anti-measurement, anti-testing bias and small capacity for following a new line of thought, could even possibly work for the same organization that my friends, brilliant people with open minds, people who loved learning, thinking and questions more than provided answers strived to be a part of. -------------------------------------------------- Mike P: The mere fact that I called you at home several months ago and told you I would be glad to help you with learning about planes now seems like misplaced effort on my part. I can tell you have not read my articles on W&B because the info on my own Pietenpol is included in the story, how I transformed it by making a mount 6" longer. I admire your loyalty to Mike Cuy. but perhaps as a guy who can't do weight and balance, didn't read the articles, couldn't start an A-65, just soloed for the first time, and just found out that actually being a structures engineer takes 500X the math skills of doing a W&B, maybe you shouldn't try 'calling me out' on W&B, especially since it was in the articles. Understand that the reason why I am giving Mike C a hard time on W&B is actually on your behalf: I strongly suspect that Mike is not sharing his W&B because he is at times flying behind the aft limit. That is his choice, but when he then tells new guys like you to build your plane just like his, I think he is doing a disservice. If this is true, your loyalty is to the wrong guy. Mike, when you share the numbers, be aware that I am good enough to know if you are fudging it. You are better off telling me to drop dead and you don't have to share anything than trying to get creative. ---------------------------------------------- Mr. Braniff: I get that you think car engines in planes are stupid. Just to be fair, when they work well, I expect that you will also chime in and say they are stupid. Like when we talk about Randy Bush's plane having 500 hours on it, please call him stupid, or Tom Brown's having 1,500, or the Last Original having 800, please chime in and call these people stupid at that time also. Considering that BHP was the greatest enabler of auto engine use of all time, perhaps you should just call him stupid every time his name comes up here. I am sure it would really open some peoples minds, those foolish people who thought BHP was a genius. 90 days ago we had a builder with a Corvair powered plane get very seriously injured when the engine in his plane quit in the pattern, and he had a forced landing in a swampy area. He was trapped in the plane for nearly 5 hours. In the weeks that he was hospitalized, two internet discussion groups had dozens of posts from people like you, all saying how terrible car engines are, and how this never would have happed with a Lycoming/Continental/Rotax The tracking on these sites showed that thousands of people read these comments. A month later the report comes out, and the feds found only one tablespoon of fuel in the plane. Not one of the anti auto engine people chimed back in to explain how certified engines run without fuel. 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