---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/31/14: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:57 AM - Larry Keitel (danhelsper@aol.com) 2. 04:45 AM - Strut Source (jarheadpilot82) 3. 05:06 AM - Re: Strut Source (Scott Knowlton) 4. 05:10 AM - Re: Strut Source (Scott Knowlton) 5. 05:14 AM - Re: Strut Source (jarheadpilot82) 6. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: spar strength (larharris2 Harris) 7. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Strut Source (Scott Knowlton) 8. 06:02 AM - Re: Strut Source (bdewenter) 9. 06:32 AM - Eyesight now Holiday Inn for Air Races (Steven Dortch) 10. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: spar strength (Dave Abramson) 11. 07:16 AM - Re: Eyesight (Steven Dortch) 12. 07:29 AM - Re: Eyesight (earthlink1) 13. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: spar strength (Michael Perez) 14. 07:48 AM - one man's spar idea.....flying for 16 years and 450 hours (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 15. 08:13 AM - Re: spar strength (taildrags) 16. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: spar strength (Michael Perez) 17. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: spar strength (Jim Boyer) 18. 09:29 AM - Re: spar strength (taildrags) 19. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: spar strength (Gene Rambo) 20. 10:12 AM - Re: NX992WD Initial W.& B. (Ryan Mueller) 21. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Strut Source (Michael Orth) 22. 10:14 AM - Re: NX992WD Initial W.& B. (Ryan Mueller) 23. 10:42 AM - Re: which holds more oil? (Ben Charvet) 24. 11:25 AM - gross weight----it is all relative (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 25. 11:32 AM - Ben C. smoke system questions (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 26. 12:46 PM - Re: one man's spar idea.....flying for 16 years and 450 hours (Doug) 27. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Doug) 28. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Doug) 29. 12:58 PM - Re: gross weight----it is all relative (Doug) 30. 01:30 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Ray Krause) 31. 02:24 PM - Re: spar strength (Braniff1966) 32. 02:26 PM - Re: gross weight----it is all relative (jarheadpilot82) 33. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Jim Boyer) 34. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Jim Boyer) 35. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: gross weight----it is all relative (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 36. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (danhelsper@aol.com) 37. 03:41 PM - Re: gross weight----it is all relative (jarheadpilot82) 38. 03:57 PM - Re: spar strength (taildrags) 39. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Gene Rambo) 40. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: gross weight----it is all relative (larharris2 Harris) 41. 04:35 PM - Re: Builder Introduction (dgaldrich) 42. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: Builder Introduction (Doug) 43. 04:53 PM - Re: spar strength (taildrags) 44. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Steven Dortch) 45. 05:37 PM - Re: spar strength (pjb) 46. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (larharris2 Harris) 47. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Jack Phillips) 48. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (Gene Rambo) 49. 07:49 PM - Re: Re: spar strength (jim hyde) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:34 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Larry Keitel From: danhelsper@aol.com Does anyone know how to get ahold of Larry Keitel?=0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0ALoensloe Airfield=0APuryear, TN=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:09 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Strut Source From: "jarheadpilot82" This morning I searched for the Carlson Aircraft website to look at strut pricing, and the domain is for sale. I googled Sky tek and got the same thing. Am I using the wrong URL or are they no longer in business? Does anyone know? -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427601#427601 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Strut Source From: Scott Knowlton Terry. I bought three sets of struts only a couple of months ago from them. I believe they are still in business. Try www.carlsonaircraft.com Scott K Burlington ON Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 31, 2014, at 7:47 AM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote: > > > This morning I searched for the Carlson Aircraft website to look at strut pricing, and the domain is for sale. I googled Sky tek and got the same thing. Am I using the wrong URL or are they no longer in business? Does anyone know? > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > USMC, USMCR, ATP > BVD DVD PDQ BBQ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427601#427601 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Strut Source From: Scott Knowlton Sorry Terry, just tried the site and you're right! Try calling 330 426 3934. They had a warehouse full of aluminium struts when I talked to them in the spring. Scott K Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 31, 2014, at 7:47 AM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote: > > > This morning I searched for the Carlson Aircraft website to look at strut pricing, and the domain is for sale. I googled Sky tek and got the same thing. Am I using the wrong URL or are they no longer in business? Does anyone know? > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > USMC, USMCR, ATP > BVD DVD PDQ BBQ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427601#427601 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Strut Source From: "jarheadpilot82" It seems to be "out of order". That is why I was asking. I know that they were up an running a few months ago. I just did not know if they had closed their doors recently. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427604#427604 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2014_07_31_at_81030_am_261.png ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:20 AM PST US From: larharris2 Harris Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Oscar=2C You are correct in your recommendation to use Elastic Limit (EL) v s MR. I'm approaching this thing step-by-step in my brain. The MR calculati on was a quick determination of failure load to see the 'ballpark.' I inten d to 'show my work' as we go along so others can make a reasonable determin ation of how it can apply to them. For those of you who are curious=2C 'failure' is where the piece of wood br eaks. Elastic limit happens before that=3B a permanent deformation (damage) is made by forces beyond the EL. Take a hammer to a piece of wood and you can make dents in it before you cause it to break. We do this to a lesser d egree when we steam our rib capstrips=3B the heat temporarily lowers the el astic limit of the wood while we hold it in the bending jig where it takes a permanent set. Lorenzo > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength > From: taildrags@hotmail.com > Date: Wed=2C 30 Jul 2014 21:36:35 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Lorenzo=3B > > As a practical matter=2C I suggest that you use the value of "fiber stres s at the elastic limit" for your spars rather than the modulus of rupture. As it is=2C the old forest product labs data that was published in 1941 fo r the properties of various woods for aircraft structures has an explanator y note with those values that says there is a significantly wide variation between test specimens of the same wood=2C same moisture content=2C taken f rom the same tree or different trees. They used an average value=2C but di d your wood come from the average tree? And are the trees that are being c ut today the same as the ones in the forest in the first half of the 20th c entury=2C when most of the wood design books were written and the research on wood for airplanes conducted? > > With that said=2C understand that the fiber stress at the elastic limit i s presented in the tables for a load duration of only 3 seconds. Consideri ng that the normal category for G loading is +3.8G and that that loading ca n occur in a coordinated 75 degree bank=2C 3 seconds is probably a good saf e thing to design for and "elastic limit" means that there is no permanent deformation of the spar as a result. Let's not fly rigorous high-G maneuve rs in our Piets=2C eh? > > Modulus of rupture=2C on the other hand=2C means if the wood sees it you' re going to rebuild a permanently broken wing after you land=2C or it's goi ng to break off in the air and you crash. When the spar experiences this k ind of load=2C it's irreversibly damaged. This has never happened to a Pie t in the air (in the records=2C anyway)- so we don't want to spoil the safe ty record and design to the modulus of rupture just to get our name in the history books. Let's use the elastic limit. Practically speaking=2C that' s 6200 psi for spruce and 8000 psi for Douglas fir. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Strut Source From: Scott Knowlton I just spoke to them and they are still in business. Apparently their website got hacked. Try the email below for Mary or the number from my previous post. Scott K Carlsonaircraft@att.net Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 31, 2014, at 8:17 AM, "jarheadpilot82" wrote: > > > It seems to be "out of order". That is why I was asking. I know that they were up an running a few months ago. I just did not know if they had closed their doors recently. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > USMC, USMCR, ATP > BVD DVD PDQ BBQ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427604#427604 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2014_07_31_at_81030_am_261.png > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:41 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Strut Source From: "bdewenter" Terry, I was perusing the web site just a few days ago. -------- Bob 'Early Builder' Dewenter Dayton OH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427610#427610 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight now Holiday Inn for Air Races From: Steven Dortch Gentlemen, Since my eyesight is still good enough to see, I bought tickets for the Red Bull Air Races in Fort Worth on the 6th and 7th of September. I originally did have reservations at a Holiday Inn, but I cancelled them for the Sleep Inn and Suites, Got a Suite to sleep 5/ and It is only one mile from the Texas Motor Speedway, So we can walk to the races. I am doing this on the cheap, Taking coolers with food into the stadium and the Hotel has free breakfast. I did splurge and bought the "reserved" seating for $10 more. Having a seat back for two days is worth it. BTW a $60 ticket is good for both days. Perhaps next year I will enter the races. -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:31 AM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength me too!!!!! Dave Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of pjb Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength taildrags wrote: > > .....So is anyone using a 1" thick spar anymore? .... Yes, I used 1" thick spars on my one-piece wing. Patricia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427586#427586 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/tn_dsc00247_167.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight From: Steven Dortch Oh no, I could not read the last email! "Pre-Glaucoma" means that I have some of the early symptoms of Open-angle glaucoma. I have had a slight gradual increase in pressure over the last several years. My grandmother had Glaucoma. What the Army medical system is now doing is every 6 months I go in to the Ophthalmology clinic and they do a pressure reading, scan my eyeballs and do a visual fields check. The Ophthalmologist says that this is not the type that has sudden onset, It comes on gradually and we should be able to detect a rise in pressure or a decrease in the visual fields long before It causes loss of vision, At that time we will look at the medications that are available. In his opinion, I should never suffer a loss of vision as long as we stay alert. Note he seems awfully young to me, Maybe 12 or 13. But all Army and Air Force doctors seem young to me. Blue Skies and Bright Eyes, Steve D On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Boatright, Jeffrey wrote: > Sadly, no. > > =9CMotel Cheap=9D is more my speed. > > -- > > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO > Professor of Ophthalmology > Emory University School of Medicine > > From: Doug > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 at 8:17 PM > To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight > > AAaaaah, but did you stay in a Holiday Inn? > > DO NOT archive. > > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > ------------------------------ > From: jeffboatright@emory.edu > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight > Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 19:57:41 +0000 > > Hi Steve, > > I=99m sorry to hear of the diagnosis, though I=99m not sure what > =9Cpre-glaucoma=9D means. I=99m really a molecular biol ogist masquerading as an > ophthalmology professor. So note: the following is just my opinion and > cannot be construed as medical advice, unless you=99re a mouse or r at. In > that case, please join my studies =94 the outcome is guaranteed 100 %. ;) > > Did your eye doc give you any advice about what to do to avoid > developing full-on glaucoma? Do you go to an ophthalmologist (MD) or an > optometrist (OD), or both? Either can be excellent. Regardless, you might > want to ask him or her for a referral to a glaucoma specialist. It can ma ke > a big difference to go to a specialist. > > As to the vitamin question, like I say often to my students =9Cwel la lot > depends on a lot=9D I am not aware of strong evidence show ing benefits to > preventing or treating glaucoma using dietary supplements. TO BE CLEAR: > that does not mean that supplements won=99t help. The lack of stron g evidence > has more to do with the history of the field. Glaucoma has long been > treated by drugs that decrease pressure inside the eyeball (intraocular > pressure; IOP). This definitely slows glaucoma, but it=99s turning out not > to be a cure. However, because for decades there was at least this > treatment approach, research on glaucoma in general has lagged other visi on > research, most prominently, research into retinal degenerations like > age-related macular degeneration (AMD) and retinitis pigmentosa (RP). > > There=99s lots of evidence for supplements being beneficial in AMD and > some forms of RP; those data may suggest benefit to glaucoma patients, bu t > it=99s not proven. The best supplement advice, IMO, has already bee n put > together at a webpage hosted by the National Eye Institute (NEI) of the > National Institutes of Health (NIH): > > http://www.nei.nih.gov/areds2/PatientFAQ.asp > > The age related eye disease study (AREDS) is huge and has been ongoing > since 1992. It=99s the real deal. And here=99s a good intervi ew with Emily Chew > that covers some of this at: > > http://www.nei.nih.gov/podcasts/emily_chew_podcast.asp > > I=99ve known Emily a long time; she=99s solid. > > Notice how the new AREDS supplement has omega-3s, lutein, and zeaxanthin > and does away with beta-carotene and lowers zinc. The formulation is matu re > enough now that we=99re tweaking it. ALSO note: the AREDS supplemen t is > contraindicated for some forms of retinal degeneration. It=99s also > expensive. So, ask your eye doc whether it will help you or not. > > On a more general scale, the number one thing you can do to maintain > your vision is to not get old. However, for some reason most of us will d o > almost anything to avoid the alternative to getting old, even though we > know it is inevitable, so we sit around getting old, senile, and blind. A nd > THEN we die. > > Kidding aside, on average, the number one thing you can do to preserve > your vision is to not smoke. If you do smoke, you=99re an idiot. Bu t hey, > people do idiotic things all the time. I probably drink too much coffee o n > weekdays and too much beer on weekends. And sometimes weekdays. The good > news here is that it=99s been shown that when you do quit smoking, you gain > some preservation of vision over several years. Of course, if you die of > lung cancer first, then I guess you did a good job of preserving your > vision up to the day you (prematurely) died. > > Other important choices are diet and exercise. I know, I know =94 blah, > blah, blah, nag, nag, nag. Who cares, right? But if you=99re alread y asking > about diet supplements, then you may as well know what=99s good to eat in > terms of your vision: leafy greens like kale, spinach, etc., bright fruit > and vegetables like tomatoes, cherries, blueberries, red and yellow bell > peppers, etc., and fish (if you can avoid heavy metals). There=99s lots of > studies in humans and in animals supporting this. As to what *not* to > eat, there=99s lots of animal studies showing that high-fat diets i ncrease > your likelihood of having age-related vision loss. Now, this doesn =99t mean > to skip the butter all the time, but it does mean that you=99ll do better if > you avoid eating all-meat, all-fat types of diets (like, say, living off of > fast food). > > Less is known about the effects of exercise. My own research in mice > shows that moderate exercise protects the retina and vision overall. Ther e > are a handful of studies in humans that suggest that a range from modest > activity to very, very heavy exercise protects vision some. That is, almo st > any amount of activity is helpful. This is certainly true for every brain > function I know of (learning, memory, decision-making, =9Ccognition =9D in > general), but we=99re just now finding evidence that exercise direc tly > benefits retina and vision. This shouldn=99t be surprising since th e retina > is actually part of the brain. My best guess at what my mouse data sugges t > for humans is that, for older folks (i.e., 40 and up; not college > sophomores), something as easy as taking a half hour morning walk will ha ve > some benefit to protecting vision. Not a shambling, smell the roses and > pick up the dog=99s poop walk, but not running a marathon, either. Obviously > if you live where there=99s lots of sunshine, you=99d want to wear shades and a > hat if you take your exercise outdoors. The key is to be active to your > last day. You might be surprised at how a lot of people become nearly > completely immobile as they get older. Don=99t do that. > > I=99m sure many of us have stories about Uncle Moe who lived to be 100, > had perfect vision, strong as a horse, never took any exercise except to > keep Aunt Millie happy right up to their last night together, and was a > two-pack-a-day guy and lived off of nothing but juicy sloppy hamburgers > washed down with milkshakes and a chaser donut or three. Some guys are > extremely lucky when it comes to genes. Problem is, you don=99t kno w how > lucky YOU are going to end up being until the final year count is done, a nd > then you=99re 6 feet under and it=99s too late. > > My opinion, Steve: Have a serious talk to your doc about supplements or > other options. Eat healthy but don=99t be a nut about it. Be active but don=99t > waste time on overdoing it. Heck, you need to be getting out to the airpo rt > and flying more, right? > > Good luck, > > Jeff > > -- > > From: Steven Dortch > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 at 1:24 PM > To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight > > Jeffrey Boatwright, based on your signature block I thought you might > know something about eyes. > What is your opinion on the various dietary supplements that claim to > help keep or improve your eyesight? > > I have been diagnosed as "Pre-Glaucoma." I don't have it yet but I have a > biennial screening for it. > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > * > =========== .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > > ------------------------------ > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > )=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{l=EF=BD7=EF=BDr=EF=BDh=EF=BDM4=EF =BDM=1Fi=C7=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD.=EF=BD'=EF=BDN=17=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF =BD%.+-=12f=EF=BD=EF=BDZ+=EF=BDe,z=EF=BD^1=EF=BDk=EF=BDx =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDW=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =DE=B0=D6=AF=EF=BD=06=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDhn=EF=BD0=EF=BD=EF =BDazf=EF=BD=C8=B8=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BD+bz=EF=BD.r =16=EF=BD.+-R=7F=D2=B9=EF=BD=1C=EF=BD*m=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BD!=0E=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD6=EF=BD=06=EF=BD0=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BD @@=EF=BDh=EF=BD=EF=BD!j=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D9=AEr=19=EF =BDr=19=EF=BD=EF=BD=E6=A1=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD > 0=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=D6=AF =EF=BD=06=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDz=D7=A7=EF=BD=EF=BDK =EF=BD=EF=BDa=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD 0=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF =BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=D6=AF=EF=BD=06=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDz=D7=A7=EF=BD=EF=BDK=EF=BD=EF=BD=7Fh=EF =BD=13D=EF=BDH > %=EF=BD=04S=EF=BDP=C4=92jg=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF =BDz{Z=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD^=EF =BD&=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDlZ+=EF=BDk=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=E9=AC=99=EF=BDk=EF=BDx =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =E9=AC=99=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=D0=A8=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDu=EF=BDm( =EF=BDy8Z=EF=BDL=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD+=CA=8B=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=DE=AE=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BDLj=EF =BDC=EF=BD=EF=BDex=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=07f=EF=BDv=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD > 0=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=EF =BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=1C=EF =BDo=DC=A2{k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF =BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=1D=EF=BD=EF=BDm=EF=BD > =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD%=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^>'=EF=BDzzh =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1 =EF=BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j =DB=ABz=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=C7=AD=EF=BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF =BDJ=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=02=EF=BD!=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84:0=EF=BDZ=1Aw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF=BD=EF=BDE=01=03=EF=BD=EF=BD, =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF =BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF =BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=CF=89=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF =BD%.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD =EF=BD=CF=89=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD%.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDM=13=EF =BD > $=EF=BD=10=11NEC=12I=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=17=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF =BD=EF=BDj=1A=EF=BD~=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=1Bm=EF =BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD {k=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*.=EF=BD=07=EF =BDz=EF=BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD1=EF=BDm=0E =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1D=EF=BD)=DA=86 =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD > &j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*' =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD =EF=BDw/=EF=BDi > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:43 AM PST US From: earthlink1 Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight Steve, That's because they ARE young. We've reached the age where most professional people we come in contact with are whippersnappers. ;) Kip On Jul 31, 2014, at 9:47 AM, Steven Dortch wrote: > Oh no, I could not read the last email! > > "Pre-Glaucoma" means that I have some of the early symptoms of Open-angle glaucoma. I have had a slight gradual increase in pressure over the last several years. My grandmother had Glaucoma. What the Army medical system is now doing is every 6 months I go in to the Ophthalmology clinic and they do a pressure reading, scan my eyeballs and do a visual fields check. > > The Ophthalmologist says that this is not the type that has sudden onset, It comes on gradually and we should be able to detect a rise in pressure or a decrease in the visual fields long before It causes loss of vision, At that time we will look at the medications that are available. In his opinion, I should never suffer a loss of vision as long as we stay alert. Note he seems awfully young to me, Maybe 12 or 13. But all Army and Air Force doctors seem young to me. > > Blue Skies and Bright Eyes, > Steve D > > > On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Boatright, Jeffrey wrote: > Sadly, no. > > =9CMotel Cheap=9D is more my speed. > > -- > > Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO > Professor of Ophthalmology > Emory University School of Medicine > > From: Doug > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 at 8:17 PM > To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight > > AAaaaah, but did you stay in a Holiday Inn? > > DO NOT archive. > > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > From: jeffboatright@emory.edu > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight > Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 19:57:41 +0000 > > Hi Steve, > > I=99m sorry to hear of the diagnosis, though I=99m not sure what =9Cpre-glaucoma=9D means. I=99m really a molecular biologist masquerading as an ophthalmology professor. So note: the following is just my opinion and cannot be construed as medical advice, unless you=99re a mouse or rat. In that case, please join my studies =94 the outcome is guaranteed 100%. ;) > > Did your eye doc give you any advice about what to do to avoid developing full-on glaucoma? Do you go to an ophthalmologist (MD) or an optometrist (OD), or both? Either can be excellent. Regardless, you might want to ask him or her for a referral to a glaucoma specialist. It can make a big difference to go to a specialist. > > As to the vitamin question, like I say often to my students =9Cwella lot depends on a lot=9D I am not aware of strong evidence showing benefits to preventing or treating glaucoma using dietary supplements. TO BE CLEAR: that does not mean that supplements won=99t help. The lack of strong evidence has more to do with the history of the field. Glaucoma has long been treated by drugs that decrease pressure inside the eyeball (intraocular pressure; IOP). This definitely slows glaucoma, but it=99s turning out not to be a cure. However, because for decades there was at least this treatment approach, research on glaucoma in general has lagged other vision research, most prominently, research into retinal degenerations like age-related macular degeneration (AMD) and retinitis pigmentosa (RP). > > There=99s lots of evidence for supplements being beneficial in AMD and some forms of RP; those data may suggest benefit to glaucoma patients, but it=99s not proven. The best supplement advice, IMO, has already been put together at a webpage hosted by the National Eye Institute (NEI) of the National Institutes of Health (NIH): > > http://www.nei.nih.gov/areds2/PatientFAQ.asp > > The age related eye disease study (AREDS) is huge and has been ongoing since 1992. It=99s the real deal. And here=99s a good interview with Emily Chew that covers some of this at: > > http://www.nei.nih.gov/podcasts/emily_chew_podcast.asp > > I=99ve known Emily a long time; she=99s solid. > > Notice how the new AREDS supplement has omega-3s, lutein, and zeaxanthin and does away with beta-carotene and lowers zinc. The formulation is mature enough now that we=99re tweaking it. ALSO note: the AREDS supplement is contraindicated for some forms of retinal degeneration. It=99s also expensive. So, ask your eye doc whether it will help you or not. > > On a more general scale, the number one thing you can do to maintain your vision is to not get old. However, for some reason most of us will do almost anything to avoid the alternative to getting old, even though we know it is inevitable, so we sit around getting old, senile, and blind. And THEN we die. > > Kidding aside, on average, the number one thing you can do to preserve your vision is to not smoke. If you do smoke, you=99re an idiot. But hey, people do idiotic things all the time. I probably drink too much coffee on weekdays and too much beer on weekends. And sometimes weekdays. The good news here is that it=99s been shown that when you do quit smoking, you gain some preservation of vision over several years. Of course, if you die of lung cancer first, then I guess you did a good job of preserving your vision up to the day you (prematurely) died. > > Other important choices are diet and exercise. I know, I know =94 blah, blah, blah, nag, nag, nag. Who cares, right? But if you=99re already asking about diet supplements, then you may as well know what=99s good to eat in terms of your vision: leafy greens like kale, spinach, etc., bright fruit and vegetables like tomatoes, cherries, blueberries, red and yellow bell peppers, etc., and fish (if you can avoid heavy metals). There=99s lots of studies in humans and in animals supporting this. As to what not to eat, there=99s lots of animal studies showing that high-fat diets increase your likelihood of having age-related vision loss. Now, this doesn=99t mean to skip the butter all the time, but it does mean that you=99ll do better if you avoid eating all-meat, all-fat types of diets (like, say, living off of fast food). > > Less is known about the effects of exercise. My own research in mice shows that moderate exercise protects the retina and vision overall. There are a handful of studies in humans that suggest that a range from modest activity to very, very heavy exercise protects vision some. That is, almost any amount of activity is helpful. This is certainly true for every brain function I know of (learning, memory, decision-making, =9Ccognition=9D in general), but we=99re just now finding evidence that exercise directly benefits retina and vision. This shouldn=99t be surprising since the retina is actually part of the brain. My best guess at what my mouse data suggest for humans is that, for older folks (i.e., 40 and up; not college sophomores), something as easy as taking a half hour morning walk will have some benefit to protecting vision. Not a shambling, smell the roses and pick up the dog=99s poop walk, but not running a marathon, either. Obviously if you live where there=99s lots of sunshine, you=99d want to wear shades and a hat if you take your exercise outdoors. The key is to be active to your last day. You might be surprised at how a lot of people become nearly completely immobile as they get older. Don=99t do that. > > I=99m sure many of us have stories about Uncle Moe who lived to be 100, had perfect vision, strong as a horse, never took any exercise except to keep Aunt Millie happy right up to their last night together, and was a two-pack-a-day guy and lived off of nothing but juicy sloppy hamburgers washed down with milkshakes and a chaser donut or three. Some guys are extremely lucky when it comes to genes. Problem is, you don =99t know how lucky YOU are going to end up being until the final year count is done, and then you=99re 6 feet under and it=99s too late. > > My opinion, Steve: Have a serious talk to your doc about supplements or other options. Eat healthy but don=99t be a nut about it. Be active but don=99t waste time on overdoing it. Heck, you need to be getting out to the airport and flying more, right? > > Good luck, > > Jeff > > -- > > From: Steven Dortch > Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2014 at 1:24 PM > To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Eyesight > > Jeffrey Boatwright, based on your signature block I thought you might know something about eyes. > > What is your opinion on the various dietary supplements that claim to help keep or improve your eyesight? > > I have been diagnosed as "Pre-Glaucoma." I don't have it yet but I have a biennial screening for it. > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > > " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of > the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged > information. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly > prohibited. > > If you have received this message in error, please contact > the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the > original message (including attachments). > )=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2{l=EF=BD7=EF=BDr=EF=BDh=EF=BDM4=EF =BDM=1Fi=C7=9C=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD.=EF=BD'=EF=BDN=17=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD% .+-=12f=EF=BD=EF=BDZ+=EF=BDe,z=EF=BD^1=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDW=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=DE=B0=D6 =AF=EF=BD=06=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDhn=EF=BD0=EF=BD=EF=BDaz f=EF=BD=C8=B8=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDb=EF=BD+bz=EF=BD.r=16=EF =BD.+-R=7F=D2=B9=EF=BD=1C=EF=BD*m=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BDb=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BD!=0E=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD6=EF=BD=06=EF=BD0=EF=BD=EF=BDj=EF=BD@@=EF=BD h=EF=BD=EF=BD!j=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D9=AEr=19=EF=BDr=19=EF =BD=EF=BD=E6=A1=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD 0=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=D6=AF=EF =BD=06=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDz=D7=A7=EF=BD=EF=BDK=EF =BD=EF=BDa=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD 0=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=D6=AF=EF =BD=06=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDz=D7=A7=EF=BD=EF=BDK=EF =BD=EF=BD=7Fh=EF=BD=13D=EF=BDH %=EF=BD=04S=EF=BDP=C4=92jg=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF =BDz{Z=EF=BD=EF=BD=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD^=EF=BD &=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDlZ+=EF=BDk=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=E9=AC=99=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=E9 =AC=99=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=D0=A8=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF=BDb=EF=BDu=EF=BDm(=EF =BDy8Z=EF=BDL=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD+=CA=8B=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=DE=AE=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BDLj=EF =BDC=EF=BD=EF=BDex=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=07f=EF=BDv=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=7F=EF=BD 0=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BDx=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD=EF=BD '=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=D8=A8=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=1C=EF=BDo=DC=A2{k=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDk=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1D=EF=BD=EF=BD m=EF=BD > =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD~=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD %=EF=BD=EF=BD4=EF=BDM4}=EF=BD=1Er=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD{=07(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD8^>'=EF=BDzzh=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD=EF=BDQh=EF=BD=E9=94=B1=EF =BDax=C6=AD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD^j=DB =ABz=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=C7=AD=EF=BD=E9=9A=9F"=EF=BD=DB=AD=EF=BDX=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD,=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDI=EF=BD J=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*'=02=EF=BD!=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=DC=84:0=EF=BDZ=1Aw=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=C7=82=EF=BD=EF=BDE=01=03=EF=BD=EF=BD,=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDjwf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF =BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF =BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=CF=89=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD%. +-=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BDZ=EF=BD(=1A=EF=BD=EF=BD=CF =89=EF=BD^=EF=BD=EF=BD%.+-=EF=BD=EF=BDM=13=EF=BD $=EF=BD=10=11NEC=12I=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDj[(j=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDz=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=17=EF=BDy=EF=BDh=EF=BD =EF=BDj=1A=EF=BD~=1Bm=EF=BD=EF=BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=1Bm=EF=BD=EF =BD=DF=A2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD r=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDB=EF=BD{k=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDy=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD =EF=BD=EF=BDjy2=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD*.=EF=BD=07=EF=BDz=EF =BD.=EF=BD=CB=A9=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD1=EF=BDm=0E=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=1D=EF=BD)=DA=86=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BDi=EF=BD=EF=BD0=EF=BDf=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF =BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD(=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BDn=EF =BDb=EF=BDxm=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD &j=EF=BD=EF=BD',r=EF=BD=EF=BDr=EF=BD=EF=BD&=EF=BD*'=EF =BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD=EF=BD'=EF=BD=EF=BDk{=EF=BD=EF =BDw/=EF=BDi > > > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:35 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Oscar, I'm not sure if you are looking for a database of wing spar thicknes ses being used, however, if you are...NX992WD uses 3/4" solid spruce.=0A=0A -=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKaretaker Aero =0AWorking W.& B. Numbers ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:07 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: one man's spar idea.....flying for 16 years and 450 hours [cid:image001.jpg@01CFACAC.DD64B1F0] From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Oscar, I'm not sure if you are looking for a database of wing spar thicknes ses being used, however, if you are...NX992WD uses 3/4" solid spruce. If God is your co-pilot, switch seats Mike Perez Karetaker Aero Working W.& B. Numbers ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: "taildrags" Mike P.- no, I'm not looking for a database of spars. I was just inquiring about spar thickness. My analysis includes solid and routed, 1" and 3/4", spruce and fir. Besides the built-up I-beam and the UK box designs, I will also NOT be studying anything deeper than the standard 4-3/4" deep FC-10 spars. People who use the Riblett or other airfoils may be able to use a deeper spar, which will provide increased capacity, but I'm not going there. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427619#427619 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:43 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Understood Oscar.=0A=0A-=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike P erez=0AKaretaker Aero=0AWorking W.& B. Numbers ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:31 AM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Hi Oscar, This theme of spar strength is interesting and I have a question. I was alw ays told that the J-3 and Aeronca Champion all had 3/4 inch spars. They als o have, J-3 at least, 36 foot wingspan as compared to 28 for the Piet. How then can 3/4 inch spars be considered not up to the task? All three have co mparable weights? Thanks, Jim B. =C2- =C2- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:39 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: "taildrags" Jim B.: is this a test? ;o) I am not studying the J-3 or Champ but after I get done with the Air Camper, I may be interested enough to take a look at those others. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427623#427623 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: Gene Rambo Jesus, Guys, enough!! If you spent half the time building that you spend worrying over minutia and running stress analysis on an 80 year old design, we would darken the skies with Pietenpols. Pick a max gross comparable to others and go fly the damned thing!! Gene On Jul 31, 2014, at 11:12 AM, "taildrags" wrote: > > Mike P.- no, I'm not looking for a database of spars. I was just inquiring about spar thickness. My analysis includes solid and routed, 1" and 3/4", spruce and fir. Besides the built-up I-beam and the UK box designs, I will also NOT be studying anything deeper than the standard 4-3/4" deep FC-10 spars. People who use the Riblett or other airfoils may be able to use a deeper spar, which will provide increased capacity, but I'm not going there. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427619#427619 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: NX992WD Initial W.& B. From: Ryan Mueller See the attached table, FWIW. This is illustrating the difference between the location of the seat back and the arm the pilot's weight falls at in inches, referenced from the wing's leading edge. This covers the sampling of aircraft we weighed and measured at Brodhead. I have sorted the list by fuselage length (measured firewall to tailpost). (As far as I can recall, the seat back location was measured at the top longeron) On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > I would appreciate that Ryan, any added intel. would be of help. I have > been fooling with the math using different pilot locations...10", 11", > 12" etc. from the pilot seat back, top; as well as wing sweep, fuel, pilot > weight..all the variables. It is good practice and helps visualize how the > changes work and interact with each other. > > > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats > Mike Perez > Karetaker Aero > Working W.& B. Numbers > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:11 AM PST US From: "Michael Orth" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Strut Source OFF TOPIC Terry, I was casually reviewing the credentials you have appended to your signature, and it seemed to me that this is a case of more-is-better. With this in mind, following are some suggestions that may (or may not) enhance your r=E9sum=E9. Unfortunately, these acronyms, by their very nature, are generally used to described negative situations or actions. Please rest assured, my suggestions do not reflect personally on you but are merely a product of my limited vocabulary...and the fact that you already got the only ones suitable for mixed company. Here are my submissions for your consideration: FUBAR RCH BFH TMI PITA NFG SNAFU Actually, on second thought, the above acronyms may be better suited for use by another individual who regularly makes (drunken?) posts to this forum. Sincerely, Michael ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- -----Original Message----- From: jarheadpilot82 Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 5:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Strut Source It seems to be "out of order". That is why I was asking. I know that they were up an running a few months ago. I just did not know if they had closed their doors recently. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427604#427604 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2014_07_31_at_81030_am_261 .png ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:17 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: NX992WD Initial W.& B. From: "Ryan Mueller" I posted this via email already, but am posting it via the web-based forum as well since Matronics is being flaky about delivering messages: See the attached table, FWIW. This is illustrating the difference between the location of the seat back and the arm the pilot's weight falls at in inches, referenced from the wing's leading edge. This covers the sampling of aircraft we weighed and measured at Brodhead. I have sorted the list by fuselage length (measured firewall to tailpost). (As far as I can recall, the seat back location was measured at the top longeron) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427625#427625 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/table_182.jpg ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:30 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: which holds more oil? After watching your video, I definitely need smoke. About how long can you smoke it on one pump up of the sprayer? Also is it in the archives how you made the exhaust fitting, or can you just share that with us ? It looks like it works very well, but if you have already done the research on orifice size it could save me some time. Ben Charvet 220 hours on NX866BC On 7/30/2014 11:12 AM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] wrote: > > Here are the handy little Lowe's or Home Depot garden department poly > spray bottles that I use to pressurize my smoke oil (basically > mineral oil) to inject > > into the right rear exhaust pipe of my A-65 engine. Every year I > need to replace the bottle because the old bottles begin to leak as > soon as you pump them > > up from exposure to the oil after a while. > > Last night I installed the new poly bottle and was bummed because it > held less fluid......or so I thought. > > Which one do you think holds more fluid? I was surprised to read that > the container on the right holds 56 oz. and the old bottle on the left > holds 51 oz. > > I still don't believe it and am going to do a little test next time I > empty out the new smoke oil bottle! (which won't take long if this > gorgeous weather keeps up.) > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:18 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: gross weight----it is all relative After doing quite a bit of Pietenpol flying and after flying several differ ent Pietnepols both with and without passengers and Piets with various engines and empty weights (including a 75hp Grega), you reall y aren't limited by whatever number you choose to be call your gross weight on your placard as much as you are the basic practicaliti es of flight and the laws of nature. You can carry a lot heavier passeng er on a 40F day than you can an 85F day. You might be able to give young person a ride out of an 1,800' grass strip with trees on both ends but you wouldn't be able to take an adult out of the same strip. One thing I know for sure is that Bill Rewey was able to give a LOT of ride s to all kinds of people even on hot days with his little 65HP Pietenpol si mply because he built his Piet with a longer wing. (can't recall how many extra feet but a few) The Pietenpol has roughly 6 feet less wingspan than a Cub or a Cha mp ( I know, square footage is the exact number but you get the idea) and I have seen (and flo wn) Cubs and Champs with some very large passengers when I would never, eve r consider taking those same people up in my Piet on a given day. If you live in Denver you won't be able to fly with as much of a load as yo u would if you were based at an airport closer to sea level. You might be able to carry a full load of fuel and no passenger or 10 gallons of fuel an d an adult and such so for me the gross, safe takeoff weight of a Piet is d etermined by those thing for the particular day, airport, Pietenpol, and wind and e levation and temperature conditions. Mike C. Ohio ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:59 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ben C. smoke system questions Hi Ben---The smoke system is a complete blast and I think if you install it you'll have great fun with it. Below is a write-up that Chris Tracy was kind enough to post under my heading in his Westcoast Piet web site and then below that is a screen capture of some more details about my smoke system that I posted on FB yesterday in the Pietenpol group. I hope this helps!!! Mike C. Don & Group, Yes, the smoke setup I have is still as per original idea and is about as simple and reliable as you can get. I use a 2 quart poly pump-up bug sprayer from the Wal Mart garden department, hacksaw off the plastic handle, remove the spray wand and discard and adapt 1/4" plastic airspeed tubing to the sprayer nozzle with rubber hose and either tye-wraps and or hose clamps. The 1/4" poly line is connected to a 1/4" copper, stainless, or aluminum tube which connects to a fitting (mine is a Swaglok fitting) that you weld into one of your aft exhaust pipes (they run hotter than the fronts on 65 Continentals) about 1-2" down from the flange. On the ID of the fitting that is welded to the exhaust pipe you drill two No. 60 drill bit holes in your exhaust pipe wall and whala, you have a smoke system. (I suppose you could drill one hole with the same equivalent area but have not tried that) Might want to put a vibration loop or two in your metal tubing from the firewall to your exhaust stack to dampen the stresses and strain on the tube so your metal doesn't fatigue. The smoke oil I use is Texaco Canopus No. 13 which is basically a mineral oil. They used to call it Corvus oil. Every other year the Thunderbirds park at our NASA hangar when they are in town and I salivate beyond measure when I go up there and see beyond the cyclone fence about a dozen 55 gallon drums of the smoke oil ready for the Thunderbirds to use in our airshow. Mike C. [cid:image001.jpg@01CFACCC.4490CD40] ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:23 PM PST US From: Doug Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: one man's spar idea.....flying for 16 years and 450 hours Thought about your idea Mike=2C but I like simple (read easy) so I'm going with the 3/4" spar idea. Yours could be lighter=2C cheaper and stronger th ough. Doug Dever =0A In beautiful Stow Ohio From: michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov Subject: Pietenpol-List: one man's spar idea.....flying for 16 years and 45 0 hours =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com]=0A On Behalf Of Michael Perez =0A Sent: Thursday=2C July 31=2C 2014 10:33 AM =0A =0A Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A Oscar=2C I'm not sure if you are looking for a database of wing spar thickn esses being used=2C however=2C if you are...NX992WD=0A uses 3/4" solid spruce.=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A If God is your co-pilot=2C switch seats=0A =0A =0A Mike Perez=0A =0A =0A Karetaker=0A Aero=0A =0A =0A Working W.& B. 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SUUtFFFFFFJRS0UUUUlFLSUUtJS0lLRRSUtFJS0lFFFOFIaSlpKKX/Gk9aKO9L3pKKKKKDS+tHek 9KWiikpfWkpe9FFFHag0hoFBoo7UetKOlJRRS0UlBpaPWkNHailFf//Z ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:48:36 PM PST US From: Doug Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength I believe several=2C including the last original use 3/4 spars. Who says i t's not up to the task? Doug Dever =0A In beautiful Stow Ohio From: boyerjrb@comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Hi Oscar=2C =0A This theme of spar strength is interesting and I have a question. I was alw ays told that the J-3 and Aeronca Champion all had 3/4 inch spars. They als o have=2C J-3 at least=2C 36 foot wingspan as compared to 28 for the Piet. How then can 3/4 inch spars be considered not up to the task? All three hav e comparable weights? Thanks=2C =0A Jim B. =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=0A 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:23 PM PST US From: Doug Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Amen DO NOT ARCHIVE Doug Dever =0A In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength > From: generambo@msn.com > Date: Thu=2C 31 Jul 2014 13:05:56 -0400 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Jesus=2C Guys=2C enough!! > > If you spent half the time building that you spend worrying over minutia and running stress analysis on an 80 year old design=2C we would darken the skies with Pietenpols. Pick a max gross comparable to others and go fly th e damned thing!! > > Gene > > On Jul 31=2C 2014=2C at 11:12 AM=2C "taildrags" w rote: > m> > > > > Mike P.- no=2C I'm not looking for a database of spars. I was just inq uiring about spar thickness. My analysis includes solid and routed=2C 1" a nd 3/4"=2C spruce and fir. Besides the built-up I-beam and the UK box desi gns=2C I will also NOT be studying anything deeper than the standard 4-3/4" deep FC-10 spars. People who use the Riblett or other airfoils may be abl e to use a deeper spar=2C which will provide increased capacity=2C but I'm not going there. > > > > -------- > > Oscar Zuniga > > Medford=2C OR > > Air Camper NX41CC "=3BScout"=3B > > A75 power > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427619#427619 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:26 PM PST US From: Doug Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: gross weight----it is all relative Good to know about Bill Rewey's as this is the only thing I would consider changing. I have a lot of experience in a particular short wing piper on f loats and it made a great speed boat at times. A super cub at the same wei ght would fly circles around it with the same hp. I'm just not sure I feel comfortable with the engineering. Doug Dever =0A In beautiful Stow Ohio From: michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov Subject: Pietenpol-List: gross weight----it is all relative =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A After doing quite a bit of Pietenpol flying and after flying several differ ent Pietnepols both with and without passengers and Piets=0A with various engines and empty weights (including a 75hp Grega)=2C you rea lly aren=92t limited by whatever number you choose to be call=0A your gross weight on your placard as much as you are the basic practicaliti es of flight and the laws of nature. You can carry a lot heavier passeng er on a 40F day than=0A you can an 85F day. You might be able to give young person a ride out of an 1=2C800=92 grass strip with trees on both ends but you wouldn=92t be=0A =0A able to take an adult out of the same strip. =0A =0A One thing I know for sure is that Bill Rewey was able to give a LOT of ride s to all kinds of people even on hot days with his little 65HP Pietenpol si mply because he=0A built his Piet with a longer wing. (can=92t recall how many extra feet bu t a few) The Pietenpol has roughly 6 feet less wingspan than a Cub or a C hamp ( I know=2C square=0A footage is the exact number but you get the idea) and I have seen (and flo wn) Cubs and Champs with some very large passengers when I would never=2C e ver consider=0A taking those same people up in my Piet on a given day. =0A =0A =0A If you live in Denver you won=92t be able to fly with as much of a load as you would if you were based at an airport closer to sea level. You might be=0A able to carry a full load of fuel and no passenger or 10 gallons of fuel an d an adult and such so for me the gross=2C safe takeoff weight of a Piet is determined=0A by those thing for the particular day=2C airport=2C Pietenpol=2C and wind and elevation and temperature conditions. =0A =0A =0A Mike C.=0A Ohio=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:43 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength My spars are 3/4" solid spruce with 1X1/8" plywood strips glued to each side along the top and bottom of the spars, creating a 1" thick spar on the top a nd bottom edges. Wings are complete, not covered. Hope this is of any use, Ray Krause SkyScout building in progress Sent from my iPad > On Jul 31, 2014, at 7:33 AM, Michael Perez wrot e: > > Oscar, I'm not sure if you are looking for a database of wing spar thickne sses being used, however, if you are...NX992WD uses 3/4" solid spruce. > > If God is your co-pilot, switch seats > Mike Perez > Karetaker Aero > Working W.& B. Numbers > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: "Braniff1966" jim b dont confuse these people with real facts.. they want to sit arond and yap about already decided things.. if they are worried about the wing just increase the strut diameter and double the jury struts..my plane has a 1 inch spar no routing on a three piece wing..... jim hyde Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427641#427641 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gross weight----it is all relative From: "jarheadpilot82" Mike, I understand what you are saying about different Density Altitudes, payloads, temperatures, etc. affecting the airplanes you have flown. However, I don't think that the most recent discussion primarily led by Oscar has been about that at all. His discussion has been about max gross weight determined based upon design strength, not performance capability. For example, If you wanted to build a really light Pietenpol you could probable save some weight by putting in 1/2 inch thick spars (maybe even 1/4 inch!) and it would be lighter. But I am guessing that the spars would fail at far less than the suggested 1080 pound gross weight. That would happen whether it was March, or July, Colorado or Florida. It would not matter if it was a standard day of 59 degrees or 102 degrees. The spars would likely fail. Not because of the performance that day, but based upon design strength. I am not an aerodynamicist, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I do think that we are speaking about 2 different things. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427642#427642 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:17 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength HI Doug, =C2- No one said its not up to the task; but it is implied when they say 1" is w hat they will figure on and basically not consider the 3/4" spar=C2-even though the J-3 and Aeronca champ have 3/4" spars. These airplanes have been flying with 3/4" spars for a long time; newer models do have aluminium spa rs. Jim B. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:58 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength No test Oscar just curious why 1" spar other than the plans do show 1" except most I thought were now using 3/4". Cheers, Jim B. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:44 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: gross weight----it is all relative That makes perfect sense Terry and I see the perspective that Oscar is comi ng from. I was looking at gross weight from the other end of the spectru m but I completely see where Oscar is coming from, yes---good points. The neat thing about the Piet enpol accident record database is that (unless I missed it) there's no reco rd of a structural wing failure which is such a tribute to the Piet design given that there have been some white-pin e and Elmer's Carpenter glue Piets built and flown out there:) ! I was s o amazed at the severe jolting I took on my 2005 return trip from WI to OH and that the airplane acted like nothi ng to it even though I prayed all the way home:) ! Mike C. Mike, I understand what you are saying about different Density Altitudes, payload s, temperatures, etc. affecting the airplanes you have flown. However, I do n't think that the most recent discussion primarily led by Oscar has been a bout that at all. His discussion has been about max gross weight determined based upon design strength, not performance capability. For example, If you wanted to build a really light Pietenpol you could prob able save some weight by putting in 1/2 inch thick spars (maybe even 1/4 in ch!) and it would be lighter. But I am guessing that the spars would fail a t far less than the suggested 1080 pound gross weight. That would happen w hether it was March, or July, Colorado or Florida. It would not matter if i t was a standard day of 59 degrees or 102 degrees. The spars would likely f ail. Not because of the performance that day, but based upon design strengt h. I am not an aerodynamicist, nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last n ight, but I do think that we are speaking about 2 different things. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427642#427642 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: danhelsper@aol.com I STILL haven't filled-in the data plate with a gross weight !=0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0ALoensloe Airfield=0APuryear, TN=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Or iginal Message-----=0AFrom: Gene Rambo =0ATo: piete npol-list =0ASent: Thu, Jul 31, 2014 1 2:07 pm=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength=0A=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Gene Rambo =0A =0AJesus, Guys, enough!!=0A=0AIf you spent half the time buildin g that you spend worrying over minutia and =0Arunning stress analysis on an 80 year old design, we would darken the ski es with =0APietenpols. Pick a max gross comparable to others and go fly the damned thing!!=0A=0AGene=0A=0AOn Jul 31, 2014, at 11:12 AM, "taildrags" wrote:=0A=0A> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "taildrags" =0A > =0A> Mike P.- no, I'm not looking for a database of sp ars. I was just inquiring =0Aabout spar thickness. My an alysis includes solid and routed, 1" and 3/4", =0Aspruce and fir. Besides the built-up I-beam and the UK box designs, I will also =0ANOT be studying anything deeper than the stan dard 4-3/4" deep FC-10 spars. =0APeople who use the Riblett or other airfoils may be able to use a deeper spar, =0A which will provide increased capacity, but I'm not going there .=0A> =0A> --------=0A> Oscar Zuniga=0A> Medford, OR=0A> Air Cam per NX41CC "Scout"=0A> A75 power=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A > Read this topic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.matronics.co m/viewtopic.php?p=427619#427619=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =========================== =========================== =========================== -Matt Dralle =========================== ========0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gross weight----it is all relative From: "jarheadpilot82" I have that T shirt as well, Mike. ;-) -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427653#427653 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:44 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: "taildrags" Jim B.- The important characteristic of a beam's ability to resist bending is the section modulus. For a rectangular beam, the section modulus varies as the *square* of the height of the beam. If you double the height of a beam, you don't just double its section modulus, you make it four times greater. The Air Camper main spar is 4-3/4" tall, but the Piper Cub main spar is 6-1/4" tall. From this, you can see that the Cub spar can be less thick than the 1" Air Camper spar but still have comparable strength in bending. I don't know what the Champ spar dimensions are, but my guess is that they are also taller than those of the Air Camper. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427656#427656 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: Gene Rambo Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Gene On Jul 31, 2014, at 6:57 PM, "taildrags" wrote: > > Jim B.- > > The important characteristic of a beam's ability to resist bending is the section modulus. For a rectangular beam, the section modulus varies as the *square* of the height of the beam. If you double the height of a beam, you don't just double its section modulus, you make it four times greater. The Air Camper main spar is 4-3/4" tall, but the Piper Cub main spar is 6-1/4" tall. From this, you can see that the Cub spar can be less thick than the 1" Air Camper spar but still have comparable strength in bending. > > I don't know what the Champ spar dimensions are, but my guess is that they are also taller than those of the Air Camper. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427656#427656 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:39 PM PST US From: larharris2 Harris Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: gross weight----it is all relative Mike C.=2C I greatly value your opinions as one who has built and been flyi ng a Piet for many years. And this issue is no exception. I appreciate that I am likely to run out of performance margin before I run out of structura l margin. Yet I have a need to know exactly what that structural margin rea lly is. My plans say to use a 1080 lb gross weight limit. Yet others say I can add 200 - 300 lb more 'no problem.' 'We have been doing it for years.' On a ni ce smooth day=2C for a few sightseeing circuits around the pattern=2C this may be no problem. When completed and flying=2C my plane will be based at the western edge of the Smoky Mountains. Not unusual here to have mechanical turbulence near th e mountains. While I won't deliberately fly into known 'heavy' air=2C I nee d to do the arithmetic to know what my margins really are if I run up my ma x gross weight. I appreciate all you do for this group. Lorenzo ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Builder Introduction From: "dgaldrich" Somebody has WAAAY too much time on their hands and access to mind altering pharmaceuticals. Bob, how far is it from Ohio to Colorado.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427663#427663 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:46 PM PST US From: Doug Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Builder Introduction Who says they're pharmaceutical? DO not archive Doug Dever =0A In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Builder Introduction > From: dgaldrich@embarqmail.com > Date: Thu=2C 31 Jul 2014 16:34:58 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > om> > > Somebody has WAAAY too much time on their hands and access to mind alteri ng pharmaceuticals. > > Bob=2C how far is it from Ohio to Colorado.... > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427663#427663 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: "taildrags" OK, this will be my last post on the subject. If anyone is interested in this subject, email me privately at taildrags@hotmail.com . All posts to the list will be ignored. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427667#427667 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: Steven Dortch Oscar, What was that second thing you said? Steve D. On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 6:53 PM, taildrags wrote: > > OK, this will be my last post on the subject. If anyone is interested in > this subject, email me privately at taildrags@hotmail.com . All posts to > the list will be ignored. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427667#427667 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:13 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: "pjb" I was interested in this thread. I'm sorry to see it end. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427672#427672 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:14 PM PST US From: larharris2 Harris Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength It's not over=2C 'til it's over. I'll continue to add stuff as I am able. I need to know. Lorenzo > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength > From: pjb@ornithopter-pilot.com > Date: Thu=2C 31 Jul 2014 17:36:52 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > I was interested in this thread. > I'm sorry to see it end. > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:49 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength Actually, Oscar, the section moduls is a function of the CUBE of the spar height, so doubling the height makes it 8 times stronger Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of larharris2 Harris Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:44 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength It's not over, 'til it's over. I'll continue to add stuff as I am able. I need to know. Lorenzo > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength > From: pjb@ornithopter-pilot.com > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:36:52 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > I was interested in this thread. > I'm sorry to see it end. > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength From: Gene Rambo Jack, I'm gonna kill you! ;))) Gene On Jul 31, 2014, at 8:58 PM, "Jack Phillips" wrot e: > Actually, Oscar, the section moduls is a function of the CUBE of the spar h eight, so doubling the height makes it 8 times stronger > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of larharris2 Harris > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:44 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength > > It's not over, 'til it's over. I'll continue to add stuff as I am able. I need to know. > > Lorenzo > > > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength > > From: pjb@ornithopter-pilot.com > > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:36:52 -0700 > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > > > I was interested in this thread. > > I'm sorry to see it end. > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:20 PM PST US From: jim hyde Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength i tried to tell them the same thing but didnt have any luck but what can yo u expect from males that want to make the god guy capt of their plane inste ad of themselves and sit around doing math on an 80 year old design.. they have everything that they need to build a very nice plane and they sit arou nd trying to impress eachother with big words the more they talk and think the more they will screw it all up=0A=0Ahyde =0A=0A=0AOn Thursday, July 31, 2014 2:49 PM, Doug wrote:=0A =0A=0A=0A =0AA men - - DO NOT ARCHIVE=0A=0ADoug Dever=0AIn beautiful Stow Ohio=0A=0A =0A=0A> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: spar strength=0A> From: generambo@ msn.com=0A> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:05:56 -0400=0A> To: pietenpol-list@ma rambo@msn.com>=0A> =0A> Jesus, Guys, enough!!=0A> =0A> If you spent half th e time building that you spend worrying over minutia and running stress ana lysis on an 80 year old design, we would darken the skies with Pietenpols. Pick a max gross comparable to others and go fly the damned thing!!=0A> =0A > Gene=0A> =0A> On Jul 31, 2014, at 11:12 AM, "taildrags" =0A> > =0A> > Mike P.- no, I'm not looking for a dat abase of spars. I was just inquiring about spar thickness. My analysis in cludes solid and routed, 1" and 3/4", spruce and fir. Besides the built-up I-beam and the UK box designs, I will also NOT be studying anything deeper than the standard 4-3/4" deep FC-10 spars. People who use the Riblett or other airfoils may be able to use a deeper spar, which will provide increas ed capacity, but I'm not going there.=0A> > =0A> > --------=0A> > Oscar Zun iga=0A> > Medford, OR=0A> > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"=0A> > A75 p ower=0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > Read this topic online here:=0A> > =0A> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=427619#427619=0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> > =0A> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.