---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/14/14: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:47 AM - Re: Re: Wing Kits (Robert Gow) 2. 04:25 AM - Re: Building Wing Ribs (womenfly2) 3. 04:44 AM - Re: Building Wing Ribs (Michael Perez) 4. 04:49 AM - Re: Carb choice for ford (Michael Perez) 5. 04:51 AM - Re: Building Wing Ribs (jarheadpilot82) 6. 04:58 AM - Re: Carb choice for ford (Yahoo! Account Service) 7. 05:01 AM - Re: Re: Building Wing Ribs (larharris2 Harris) 8. 05:07 AM - Re: Carb choice for ford (tkreiner) 9. 05:15 AM - Re: Building Wing Ribs (jarheadpilot82) 10. 05:57 AM - tillotson carb (Douwe Blumberg) 11. 01:45 PM - Re: Building Wing Ribs (tools) 12. 02:03 PM - Re: Building Wing Ribs (AircamperN11MS) 13. 02:10 PM - Re: Carb choice for ford (Michael Weston) 14. 02:15 PM - Re: tillotson carb (Doug) 15. 02:20 PM - Re: Building Wing Ribs (Jerry Dotson) 16. 03:48 PM - Re: tillotson carb (Greg Cardinal) 17. 08:41 PM - Re: Carb choice for ford (Ray Krause) 18. 08:55 PM - Re: tillotson carb (Ray Krause) 19. 09:14 PM - Re: Wing Kits (biplan53) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits From: Robert Gow I bought a project that came with a set of ribs. I had previously purchased a set of ribs from a person who was building them to order. Original Message From: biplan53 Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 02:20 Reply To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits How did you come up with an extra set of ribs? I am building a steel fuselage too. I copied Aerojake and I am putting a door in the front seat. Have not figured out the hinge yet. Also added about 7inches to the front seat area. I have a wooden fuselage at the shop I am going to build the steel gear and brackets for. If my friend puts the engine he wants on it, it will be something neat. He wants to put a Donavan Model D engine in it. The model D is a copy of a model A that is made to race engine specs. It is made of aluminum with a chevy 350 bearings and billet crank, forged rods and pistons. The ports are fashioned on 350 ports. It is expensive but still cheaper than a new plane engine. -------- Building steel fuselage aircamper. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428419#428419 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:29 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs From: "womenfly2" > In one case, after steaming, drying, and assembly of the rib, I found the capstrip split at the severest curve the next morning after the T-88 had cured. I did a T-88 repair on this part since it will be under that 9-inch gusset the length of the leading edge. Do not remember the Piet rib having a "Sever Curve" ... ? All my top cap strips, 1/4" x 1/2" stika spruce, were steamed on a jig that over curved the radii to allow for flex back giving them the correct curvature Never had one brake as you posted in your pictures. It also looks like you have more of a radius then the Piet rib in the drawings ? I have also tried "Dry Heat" does not work without the moisture from the water in the steam to help soften the wood fibers making the wood flexable. BTW, I have built Piper J-3 ribs from 1/4" x 1/4" stika spruce without steaming them, no issue with any braking. Curious issues you are having. WF2 -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428424#428424 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:15 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building Wing Ribs When I made my ribs, I just soaked the finished cap strip in water for abou t 30-40 min. They went directly on to the pre-bend jig, which was made with an over bend to account for the spring back...as already mentioned. Once d ry, the cap strip slipped nicely into the rib jig without having to bend or force them into it. I did not have any breaking and in fact, the couple pi eces I "stress tested" bent quite a bit before splitting.- sounds like yo ur wood was still too dry after steaming and being placed in the pre-bend j ig. (?)=0A=0A=0AIf God is your co-pilot, switch seats=0AMike Perez=0AKareta ker Aero=0AJury Strut Fabrication/Installation ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:34 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb choice for ford An option would be to fabricate one to fit, or have one made. The stress on the arm itself at the carburetor is minimal. The arm should move smooth and free. If God is your co-pilot, switch seats Mike Perez Karetaker Aero Jury Strut Fabrication/Installation ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:30 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs From: "jarheadpilot82" Lorenzo, Are you using the Pietenpol airfoil or the Riblett? I had some minor, but not near as severe as your pictures show, cracking issues when steaming my capstrips. The upper capstrip on the Riblett appears to have more of a curve to it. I found that steaming mine, then IMMEDIATELY putting them in the rib jig worked the best. Any more than about 10 seconds or so and the capstrips didno't seem to want to bend as easily. In that case, I would stick them back in the stream for a bit. I never did the "fishing pole casting" test, but I did not having a lot of cracking issues, so I am happy with the outcome. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428427#428427 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2610_202.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_2629_145.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:56 AM PST US From: Yahoo! Account Service Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb choice for ford If you like the Tillotaon X maybe you could make a new throttle arm. Skip -----Original Message----- >From: aviken >Sent: Aug 13, 2014 9:25 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Carb choice for ford > > >I need a little advice here.. In choosing a possible carb for my Jeep engine powered piet, I tried a universal four cyl carb made years ago for tractors fork lifts ect. It was brand new in the box, but it was very heavy and bulky. Then I did a little research and it seemed some ford powered piets use the Tillotson X Carb. So I bought one of them. It is small and light but what concerns me is the small flimsy throttle arm. It seems like a very weak link to risk your life on a piece of pot metal not much thicker than a kitchen match with a little ball end to attatch your cable to. What other options should I look at? > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428417#428417 > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:46 AM PST US From: larharris2 Harris Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs "Severe curve" was just to try to describe the location. There really isn't a severe curve=2C but my issues were where the rib had the 'most' curve=2C on top at the front of the rib. I bought Pietenpol's full size rib drawing. All my layouts are traced direc tly from this drawing. I did not crosscheck the dimensions with the regular plans drawing. If I had it all to do over again=2C I would do as you describe. I would bui ld my bending jig with a greater curve than the finished rib to allow for a bit of springback. Perhaps I just got a batch of exceptionally brittle spruce ?? Perhaps I sh ould give the strips some more time in the steamer? I reckon it is all part of the learning/building process. Lorenzo > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs > From: Love2Fly.KAP@gmail.com > Date: Thu=2C 14 Aug 2014 04:25:04 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > > Do not remember the Piet rib having a "Sever Curve" ... ? All my top cap strips=2C 1/4" x 1/2" stika spruce=2C were steamed on a jig that over curve d the radii to allow for flex back giving them the correct curvature > > Never had one brake as you posted in your pictures. It also looks like yo u have more of a radius then the Piet rib in the drawings ? > > I have also tried "Dry Heat" does not work without the moisture from the water in the steam to help soften the wood fibers making the wood flexable. > > BTW=2C I have built Piper J-3 ribs from 1/4" x 1/4" stika spruce without steaming them=2C no issue with any braking. > > Curious issues you are having. > > WF2 > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Carb choice for ford From: "tkreiner" When you make one of these, you might consider using an exposed head with provision for a safety wire... Just my $.02 -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428430#428430 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs From: "jarheadpilot82" Lorenzo, I would let mine steam for at least 45-50 minutes, and usually it was fine. I am guessing that I could have pulled them out well before then, but it certainly did not hurt anything. I like your rib jig, by the way. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA USMC, USMCR, ATP BVD DVD PDQ BBQ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428431#428431 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:26 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb You're right, the Tillotsen was frequently used in the earlier days on both Fords and corvairs. They're not used much these days on either. I am not personally familiar with the carb, but would definitely find a way to replace the flimsy arm if it bothers you. believe me, if it bothers you now? It'll REALLY bother you on climbout over trees at 400' with someone's kid in the front seat. I had a lot of luck with a weber on my ford installation. Most guys successfully flying fords these days seem to be using a ford carb. Good luck on this fascinating project! Douwe ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs From: "tools" Wood fibers can be crushed, they CANNOT be stretched. So, steaming or boiling helps to loosen up the wood cells. Bending effectively is then a matter of making sure you are crushing cells, not trying to stretch them. When you hold a piece of wood freehand and bend it, in theory, the outer half of the wood is in tension, the middle neutral, and the inner half in compression. So to steam bend wood effectively and repeatably, you need to force ALL of the wood into compression. Something as simple as nylon packing tape along the outside radius, will (help) prevent any stretching there, and will effectively force all of the wood into compression and it will bend A LOT, EVERY time. Commercial wood bending jigs bend 1" and thicker chair backs like they're nothing. They will capture the piece of wood in a jig. The backbone being some flexible steel, end pieces welded or bolted to it. Then, the steel doesn't stretch, the end pieces force the wood into compression. With stuff as small as ours, the packing tape is cheap insurance. Needs to be really well adhered though, so wrapped over the ends. In the case of some ribs breaking and some not... when it's just free bent, it's a matter of whether or not the outer fibers are strong enough to create this condition themselves. Since they cannot stretch, if they reach their tensile strength before the wood bends enough, they merely fail. The steaming helps to keep the cells pliable, so when they crush, they don't fail completely, but rather deform. The trick is to condition them enough so they'll experience plastic deformation of a sort. It IS the moisture that does this. Warm moisture is better. Steaming is more effective than boiling, but I don't think boiling is really any problem at all. Tage Frid has written some really good articles on wood bending, probably available online these days. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428455#428455 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs From: "AircamperN11MS" Professor Tools, Good description and easy to understand. You taught me something today. Thank you for that. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428456#428456 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:14 PM PST US From: Michael Weston Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb choice for ford hi kenny,mike w.here, just send me the arm and i'll make you a stronger one out of billet. happy to help. mike weston. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:01 PM PST US From: Doug Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb Anyone ever thought of using an Aerocarb/Aeroinjector? Pretty simple...not prone to icing. Doug Dever =0A In beautiful Stow Ohio From: douweblumberg@earthlink.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb You=92re right=2C the Tillotsen was frequently used in the earlier days on both Fords and corvairs. They=92re not used much these days on either. I am not personally familiar with the carb=2C but would definitely find a wa y to replace the flimsy arm if it bothers you. believe me=2C if it bothers you now? It=92ll REALLY bother you on climbout over trees at 400=92 with someone=92s kid in the front seat. I had a lot of luck with a weber on my f ord installation. Most guys successfully flying fords these days seem to b e using a ford carb. Good luck on this fascinating project! Douwe=0A =0A =0A =0A ============0A ============0A ============0A ============0A =0A ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building Wing Ribs From: "Jerry Dotson" This thread is very interesting. I tried steaming first and got poor results. Then I soaked them overnight and got great results. I built several of the drying jigs. I stack sawed several. Then let them dry a few days. It was a fun part of building. My drying jigs looked like twin brothers to Terry's. When I got some dry and bent things went great. I built a finished rib every day and was a little sad when they were done. -------- Jerry Dotson First flight June 16,2012 Flying in phase 2 Lycoming O-235 C2C Jay Anderson CloudCars prop 76 X 44 do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=428461#428461 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/a59_959.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:13 PM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb I bacame intimately familiar with a Tillotson X on the way to Brodhead this year when one of the three Pietenpols I was flying with made a deadstick l anding in a farm field due to the float valve seat loosening up and starvin g the engine of fuel. The Tillotson X is lightweight and simple but there is no provision to safe ty the float valve seat. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 7:57 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb You're right, the Tillotsen was frequently used in the earlier days on bo th Fords and corvairs. They're not used much these days on either. I am not personally familiar with the carb, but would definitely find a w ay to replace the flimsy arm if it bothers you. believe me, if it bothers you now? It'll REALLY bother you on climbout over trees at 400' with someo ne's kid in the front seat. I had a lot of luck with a weber on my ford installation. Most guys succ essfully flying fords these days seem to be using a ford carb. Good luck on this fascinating project! Douwe --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protec tion is active. http://www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:21 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Carb choice for ford Now that is a very nice gesture. I admired the one in the photo (I assume you sent it) because I really love to see such works of art. I have a dear friend who makes such things for me and my planes, it is a great talent and very much appreciated. I have shown him some of my problems as they come along and he just says, "let me think about that and get back to you". In a few days he has solved my problem with an "adaptor", or a new way of doing the project. He machined an aluminum adaptor between my tach and the tach cable that is both ingenious and beautiful. I wish I had a picture of it to show you, but it is now hidden behind the panel. It should be displayed in a crystal box! This group is really great! Thanks, Ray Krause Plugging away at the SkyScout and checked out anew in our restored Champ. Have not flown one in thirty years, what a hoot. My seventeen year old grandson is really excited because he took it off and landed it all by himself yesterday! Sent from my iPad > On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Michael Weston wrote: > > > hi kenny,mike w.here, just send me the arm and i'll make you a stronger one out of billet. happy to help. mike weston. > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:13 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb And they have an adaptor for the small Continentals, it costs only $365.00! I t does not need carb heat on the cowled Sonex aircraft, but not sure about o n a non-pressure cowled Continental. I have not yet found anyone who has use d one, but Sonex says it has been done successfully several times. I might d o so on my SkyScout, but the engine came with an Stromberg NS-3B that works o n the engine and it runs great! If I need an overhaul on the Stromberg, I w ill probably change to an Aeroinjector, it works great on my Jabiru 3300/Wai ex. Ray Krause Building SkyScout with A-65,already overhauled and successfully run. Ray Krause Sent from my iPad > On Aug 14, 2014, at 2:14 PM, Doug wrote: > > Anyone ever thought of using an Aerocarb/Aeroinjector? Pretty simple...no t prone to icing. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > From: douweblumberg@earthlink.net > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: tillotson carb > Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:57:06 -0400 > > You=99re right, the Tillotsen was frequently used in the earlier day s on both Fords and corvairs. They=99re not used much these days on e ither. > > > > I am not personally familiar with the carb, but would definitely find a wa y to replace the flimsy arm if it bothers you. believe me, if it bothers yo u now? It=99ll REALLY bother you on climbout over trees at 400=99 with someone=99s kid in the front seat. > > > > I had a lot of luck with a weber on my ford installation. Most guys succe ssfully flying fords these days seem to be using a ford carb. > > > > Good luck on this fascinating project! > > > Douwe > > > > ========== > st" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wing Kits From: "biplan53" How much do you want for the ribs? You can email me at biplan53@hotmail.com. Thanks!! -------- Building steel fuselage aircamper. 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