---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/02/14: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:30 AM - Re: More Smoke (Jeff Boatright) 2. 05:15 AM - Re: Re: More Smoke (Gary Boothe) 3. 06:32 AM - tarp (Douwe Blumberg) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Eyesight now Holiday Inn for Air Races (Steven Dortch) 5. 06:40 AM - Red Bull Air Races (Steven Dortch) 6. 07:59 AM - Re: More Smoke (Ray Krause) 7. 08:17 AM - Re: tarp (john francis) 8. 08:31 AM - Re: tarp (namrednos) 9. 10:08 AM - Re: Red Bull Air Races (Ben Charvet) 10. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Evening flight (Jim Boyer) 11. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Evening flight (Ray Krause) 12. 11:06 AM - Jeep engine (aviken) 13. 11:06 AM - Re: Red Bull Air Races (Michael Perez) 14. 11:59 AM - catching on Gary----it's catching on...... (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 15. 12:22 PM - Re: catching on Gary----it's catching on...... (Gary Boothe) 16. 12:38 PM - Re: Jeep engine (Steven Dortch) 17. 12:39 PM - Re: Jeep engine (Steven Dortch) 18. 12:40 PM - Re: Jeep engine (William Wynne) 19. 12:45 PM - Re: Jeep engine (William Wynne) 20. 12:57 PM - Turtle Deck Suppport (john francis) 21. 01:45 PM - Re: More Smoke (Gary Boothe) 22. 02:14 PM - Re: catching on Gary----it's catching on...... (Ray Krause) 23. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: Used Pietenpol plans (Doug) 24. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Evening flight (Jim Boyer) 25. 05:00 PM - Re: Red Bull Air Races (Dan P) 26. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Red Bull Air Races (Gary Boothe) 27. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: Used Pietenpol plans (Bill Budgell) 28. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: Used Pietenpol plans (Gary Boothe) 29. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: Used Pietenpol plans (glenschweizer@yahoo.com) 30. 07:22 PM - Tool stock planned 19-22 February. (tools) 31. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Evening flight (Ray Krause) 32. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: Evening flight (Jim Boyer) 33. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Used Pietenpol plans (Bill Budgell) 34. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Evening flight (Ray Krause) 35. 09:17 PM - Re: W & B, CG, and LG location question (William Wynne) 36. 10:16 PM - Re: Used Pietenpol plans (William Wynne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More Smoke From: "Jeff Boatright" Very nice! I think the ATF/baby oil gives more fluffiness. Or were you opening the spigot more? > A great evening for flying! Temp in the mid 90sno wind! This was a & mixture of ATF and baby oil. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7banO07qU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7banO07qU&feature=youtu.be) > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429828#429828 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:10 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: More Smoke Same spigot opening, Jeff. I'll let the ATF burn out and switch to mineral oil or real smoke oil. Hardly any blow back on the plane this time, though!! Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 4:30 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: More Smoke --> Very nice! I think the ATF/baby oil gives more fluffiness. Or were you opening the spigot more? > A great evening for flying! Temp in the mid 90sno wind! This was a & mixture of ATF and baby oil. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7banO07qU&feature=youtu.be > (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7banO07qU&feature=youtu.be) > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429828#429828 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:44 AM PST US From: "Douwe Blumberg" Subject: Pietenpol-List: tarp Hey John Francis, I owe you a tarp dude! I can't thank you enough for loaning it to me at Stewarts, it REALLY came in handy!! Douwe ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Eyesight now Holiday Inn for Air Races From: Steven Dortch Sleep Inn and Suites at Roanoke, Texas is where we are going to stay. Rates are good. Not sure if they have an opening. On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Dan P wrote: > > My sons and I will driving in from Pauls Valley Saturday morning. I'm not > sure what the lodging arangments for Saturday night will be. All in all it > looks to be a great weekend. > > -------- > Dan Plett > N28WH > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429808#429808 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Red Bull Air Races From: Steven Dortch I am a little ashamed that no one on this list has entered their Pietenpol in the Red Bull Air Races! -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:46 AM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More Smoke Beautiful, Gary, thanks! Why don't you come over to Colusa, sometime? Maybe as the weather cools, we will have better opportunities. It would be fun to have such a nice plane land here. Ray Sent from my iPad > On Sep 1, 2014, at 9:31 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > > A great evening for flying! Temp in the mid 90=99sno wind! T his was a =C2=BD & =C2=BD mixture of ATF and baby oil. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7banO07qU&feature=youtu.be > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:15 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tarp From: "john francis" Keep it Douwe. Pay it forward. -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429844#429844 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: tarp From: "namrednos" Douwe, the weather was great until 6:30 Your plane is one of a kind. I was very impressed with your delightful daughter. I wish one of my 4 daughters would take interest in our hobby. See attached -------- Scott Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429845#429845 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/imgp1463_194.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:08:06 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Red Bull Air Races I need more practice on my knife edge turns Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2014, at 9:39 AM, Steven Dortch wrot e: > > I am a little ashamed that no one on this list has entered their Pietenpol in the Red Bull Air Races! > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:56 AM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Evening flight Hi Ray, I need a piece of 1x1 yet myself; my struts are the large size from Carlsons. Thanks, Jim =C2- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:44 AM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Evening flight Jim, I will have about 6 pieces, 6" long, what do you need. You may have it. Let me know. Ray Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2014, at 10:12 AM, Jim Boyer wrote: > > Hi Ray, I need a piece of 1x1 yet myself; my struts are the large size fro m Carlsons. > Thanks, > Jim > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jeep engine From: "aviken" Hello again... I have some information that I have developed recently... I was attempting to match the Jeep 134 L head Go Devil engine, Of WW2 fame to use in the place of a Model A on my pietenpol project. I progressed to the point of installing a Slick mag and new intake and exhaust as well as installing a tachometer drive mount. After testing with a Tillotson Model A Carb which it only managed 1600 rpm, I tried it with a larger Bendix carb and got it up to 1800. This is with a 72 inch Seninich prop from a Champ.... I had hoped for at least 2000 rpm. I have decided that the jeep engine is probably too small for the task, And I have moved on to other options. If anyone would like to continue this test or have any questions please give me a call at 870-926-7165. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429852#429852 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_green_2_178.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:57 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Red Bull Air Races If my plane had the 40 hours flown off... If God is your co-pilot, switch seats Mike Perez Karetaker Aero Construction complete! (8/2014) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:56 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: catching on Gary----it's catching on...... Great work Gary Boothe in getting your smoke system working. Your video a re fantastic and thanks for taking us along for the ride. Here are a few others who are also having fun vaporizing the daylights out of various oils . A shiney Luscombe and a few others at the Antique Airplane Associati on Fly In at Ottumwa, Iowa this past weekend. Mike C. Ohio [cid:image001.jpg@01CFC6BE.7AA763B0] [cid:image002.jpg@01CFC6BE.7AA763B0] [cid:image003.jpg@01CFC6BE.7AA763B0] ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: catching on Gary----it's catching on...... From: Gary Boothe Thanks, Mike! I aspire to smoke like any one of those guys! Gary Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2014, at 11:59 AM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" wrote: > > Great work Gary Boothe in getting your smoke system working. Your video a re fantastic and thanks for taking us along for the ride. Here are a few > others who are also having fun vaporizing the daylights out of various oil s. A shiney Luscombe and a few others at the Antique Airplane Associati on Fly In > at Ottumwa, Iowa this past weekend. > > Mike C. > Ohio > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jeep engine From: Steven Dortch could I swing a big paddle bladed prop slowly? Isn't that what the model A Piets do? Steve D On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 1:06 PM, aviken wrote: > > Hello again... I have some information that I have developed recently... I > was attempting to match the Jeep 134 L head Go Devil engine, Of WW2 fame to > use in the place of a Model A on my pietenpol project. I progressed to > the point of installing a Slick mag and new intake and exhaust as well as > installing a tachometer drive mount. After testing with a Tillotson Model > A Carb which it only managed 1600 rpm, I tried it with a larger Bendix > carb and got it up to 1800. This is with a 72 inch Seninich prop from a > Champ.... I had hoped for at least 2000 rpm. I have decided that the jeep > engine is probably too small for the task, And I have moved on to other > options. If anyone would like to continue this test or have any questions > please give me a call at 870-926-7165. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429852#429852 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_green_2_178.jpg > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jeep engine From: Steven Dortch Should have been "Could it..." On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Steven Dortch wrote: > could I swing a big paddle bladed prop slowly? Isn't that what the model A > Piets do? > > Steve D > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 1:06 PM, aviken wrote: > >> >> Hello again... I have some information that I have developed recently... >> I was attempting to match the Jeep 134 L head Go Devil engine, Of WW2 fame >> to use in the place of a Model A on my pietenpol project. I progressed to >> the point of installing a Slick mag and new intake and exhaust as well as >> installing a tachometer drive mount. After testing with a Tillotson Model >> A Carb which it only managed 1600 rpm, I tried it with a larger Bendix >> carb and got it up to 1800. This is with a 72 inch Seninich prop from a >> Champ.... I had hoped for at least 2000 rpm. I have decided that the jeep >> engine is probably too small for the task, And I have moved on to other >> options. If anyone would like to continue this test or have any questions >> please give me a call at 870-926-7165. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429852#429852 >> >> >> >> >> Attachments: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_green_2_178.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Blue Skies, > Steve D > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jeep engine From: "William Wynne" Ken, Don't throw in the towel just yet! A few more easy tests might reveal some better results.... 1) Borrow a manifold pressure gage from someone or buy a cheap one. tap it into your intake and re-run the engine at wide open throttle and note the reading. If it is not within 1" of ambient pressure, you need a bigger carb. 2) How far advanced did you try the timing? 3) A champ prop is a good prop for a 65hp engine with a 2375 redline, but I suspect that you are leaving a lot of ponies in the barn by shooting for too low an rpm. All of my loaner Corvair props have the same SAE 1 bolt pattern, but they have opposite rotation blades. If need be, I could scrounge up some in your rotation. I suspect that a 66" two blade prop set for 2,500 static rpm would provide a very different hp and thrust picture for your engine. As an engine with a pressurized oil system and insert bearings it will not be harmed by this rpm. I am guessing 1800 isn't even the torque peak for the engine. The right prop to allow your engine to speed up some is in order. 4) My friend Bob Lester, who switched from a 65 Lycoming to a Corvair on his Piet may still have the original prop, and they have somewhat less pitch and area than a Continental prop, as they were certified at a higher rpm, I will find out if you can perhaps test this, if we can't put option #3 together. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429858#429858 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jeep engine From: "William Wynne" Steve, Ken's engine is 134 cid vs 200 on a Ford. His primary way to get more power from the engine is get more mass of air and fuel through it by turning more rpm. Engines experience their peak volumetric efficiency at the torque peak by definition. If Ken is below the torque peak, his engine will actually be more efficient if it speeds up. -ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429863#429863 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:19 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Turtle Deck Suppport From: "john francis" Where the top of the back seat and the turtle deck support meet, has me confused. I looked at some pictures on westcoastpiet and see that some of you have elected to make this joint flush and others have an offset here. It does appear to me that some additional (not in plans?) support is needed to tie these two components together. -------- John Francis Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429866#429866 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:10 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More Smoke There is no doubt, Ray. I owe you a visitor two! Gary Boothe NX308MB From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ray Krause Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More Smoke Beautiful, Gary, thanks! Why don't you come over to Colusa, sometime? Maybe as the weather cools, we will have better opportunities. It would be fun to have such a nice plane land here. Ray Sent from my iPad On Sep 1, 2014, at 9:31 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: A great evening for flying! Temp in the mid 90=99sno wind! This was a =C2=BD & =C2=BD mixture of ATF and baby oil. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z7banO07qU &feature=youtu.be Gary Boothe NX308MB D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D //forums.matronics.com D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:26 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: catching on Gary----it's catching on...... Does he have to polish the Luscombe after each smoke job? Ray Krause Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2014, at 11:59 AM, "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" wrote: > > Great work Gary Boothe in getting your smoke system working. Your video a re fantastic and thanks for taking us along for the ride. Here are a few > others who are also having fun vaporizing the daylights out of various oil s. A shiney Luscombe and a few others at the Antique Airplane Associati on Fly In > at Ottumwa, Iowa this past weekend. > > Mike C. > Ohio > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:15 PM PST US From: Doug Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans He is more gracious than most design holder. Certainly more than I would b e=2C but nonetheless I would question a person's character who would not pu rchase plans from the design holder just to save a couple bucks on a $10=2C 000+ airplane. This is no reflection on you...well a little=2C but on the p urchaser. Andrew deserves the money as without him there would be no more Piet plans. Doug Dever =0A In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans > From: dlplett@swko.net > Date: Mon=2C 1 Sep 2014 11:18:05 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > >From Andrew Pietenpol. > > -------- > Dan Plett > N28WH > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429778#429778 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_670.jpg > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:03 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Evening flight Hi Ray, I need four pieces 6 inches long. If you have that many I will gladly buy t hem from you. Jim =C2- ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Red Bull Air Races From: "Dan P" Boothe has the smoke down. 8) -------- Dan Plett N28WH Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429880#429880 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:23 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Red Bull Air Races From: Gary Boothe Ha! Red Bull, here I come!! Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "Dan P" wrote: > > > Boothe has the smoke down. 8) > > -------- > Dan Plett > N28WH > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429880#429880 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:00 PM PST US From: Bill Budgell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans Yes and the way you people carry on with his grandfathers design your lucky he still sells the blueprints . Regards: Bill Budgell Cap Aviation Supplies ________________________________ From: Doug Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 6:50:56 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans He is more gracious than most design holder. Certainly more than I would be, but nonetheless I would question a person's character who would not purchase plans from the design holder just to save a couple bucks on a $10,000+ airplane. This is no reflection on you...well a little, but on the purchaser. Andrew deserves the money as without him there would be no more Piet plans. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans > From: dlplett@swko.net > Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:18:05 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > >From Andrew Pietenpol. > > -------- > Dan Plett > N28WH > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429778#429778 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_670.jpg & Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >======================= > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:33 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans "you people"? Gary Boothe NX308MB From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Budgell Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans Yes and the way you people carry on with his grandfathers design your lucky he still sells the blueprints . Regards: Bill Budgell Cap Aviation Supplies From: Doug Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 6:50:56 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans He is more gracious than most design holder. Certainly more than I would be, but nonetheless I would question a person's character who would not purchase plans from the design holder just to save a couple bucks on a $10,000+ airplane. This is no reflection on you...well a little, but on the purchaser. Andrew deserves the money as without him there would be no more Piet plans. Doug Dever In beautiful Stow Ohio > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans > From: dlplett@swko.net > Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:18:05 -0700 > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > >From Andrew Pietenpol. > > -------- > Dan Plett > N28WH > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429778#429778 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_670.jpg & Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >======================= > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans From: glenschweizer@yahoo.com Last time I heard "you people",Archie Bunker said it. Mr. Pietenpol gave hi s permission to sell the used set of plans. Get over it. Next topic please. I would love to hear more about deck angle. This is a wonderful group of minds which has contributed greatly to my kn owledge. Thank you all Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 2, 2014, at 6:09 PM, "Gary Boothe" wrote: > > =9Cyou people=9D? > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Budgell > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 5:52 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans > > Yes and the way you people carry on with his grandfathers design your luck y he still sells the blueprints . > > Regards: Bill Budgell > > Cap Aviation Supplies > > From: Doug > To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 6:50:56 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans > > He is more gracious than most design holder. Certainly more than I would b e, but nonetheless I would question a person's character who would not purch ase plans from the design holder just to save a couple bucks on a $10,000+ a irplane. This is no reflection on you...well a little, but on the purchaser. Andrew deserves the money as without him there would be no more Piet plans .. > > Doug Dever > In beautiful Stow Ohio > > > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans > > From: dlplett@swko.net > > Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:18:05 -0700 > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > > > > >=46rom Andrew Pietenpol. > > > > -------- > > Dan Plett > > N28WH > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429778#429778 > > > > > > > > > > Attachments: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/image_670.jpg > & Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > >======================= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > http://forums.matronics.com > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:05 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tool stock planned 19-22 February. From: "tools" Any interest here? Want as many Piet or airplane folks as possible. Should have mine avail for rides as much as possible. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429888#429888 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:44 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Evening flight Jim, I will measure tomorrow and let you know, I may be short on a couple. Do you have your plane all covered, now? Or are you just getting to the rigg ing? I will bet it is absolutely beautiful. Tomorrow, Ray Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Jim Boyer wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I need four pieces 6 inches long. If you have that many I will gladly buy t hem from you. > > Jim > > > > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:28 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Evening flight Hi Ray, No I have to mount the pitot tube and have to make a L bracket to mount it. That is what I will be working on tomorrow. I also have to order about 18 feet of 1/4 inch Nylon II tubing for the pitot/static tube. Then the wings are ready to cover. I only have everything primed right now so when wings a re covered and primed then it is time for color coats. =C2- If any of your pieces of aluminium are at least 4 1/2 inches or longer that will work too. Thanks, Jim =C2- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:15 PM PST US From: Bill Budgell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans Yes you people ....( not you as the person) I know you are defending Andrew Pietenpol ....the forum doesn't seem to do a lot of helping new builders plus all they do is re-engineer the Pietenpol why do think Andrew Pietenpol isn't on the site ... yet he still cares but he's not there anymore and th e guy that sells the hinges that vi kapler use to sell because these guys cant be told anything..... they load factors type of material etc.... what crap I have 600hrs. on kaplers hinges no problem. =0A=0AThe forum people do n't even know what AC43 manual is.... and come up with BS on what they thi nk they know but in reality they know nothing... there some good people on there but I can see anyone with common sense that makes a statement these p eople don't listen.... and they pass there BS on to people that don't know better to walk away. =0A=0AThe chatter is stupid I have made a lot of goo d friends from the site but most have left for exactly this reason ..... wh y don't you pass this on to the forum and lets see the BS come back on this .=0A=0AHalf of what these people say is wrong and half of what they tell ne w builders is incorrect this is a simple aircraft to build. and was designe d by a good man that had more common sense in his baby finger than what I see in this hole forum. =0A=0AIt seems that the new way in aviation and in homebuilding is to spoon feed this new breed..... on every little item If the forum wants to really back the Pietenpol Aircraft then do Andrew Pieten pol the honor of building the plane as per plans and stop the over building and analyzing every dam thing.... and spread some common sense around on t he forum.=0A=0AI have never seen so much indecision on the building like I have on this forum I can go back in the archives and find good information up to a point .... then from that point you can read the BS from the new ag e.... so called know it all's.... It time someone spoke up here... its time to get back to correct advise to new builders that is backed up and not BS . =0A=0ARegards: Bill Budgell AME. Canada=0A=0ACap Aviation Supplies=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From: Gary Boothe =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Tuesday, September 2, 2 014 9:09:13 PM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans=0A =0A=0A=0A=9Cyou people=9D?=0A =0AGary Boothe=0ANX308MB=0A =0AFr om:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-s erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Budgell=0ASent: Tuesday, September 0 2, 2014 5:52 PM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol -List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans=0A =0AYes and the way you people carry on w ith his grandfathers design your lucky he still sells the blueprints .=0A =0ARegards: Bill Budgell=0A =0ACap Aviation Supplies=0A =0AFrom:Doug =0ATo: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" =0ASent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 6:50:56 PM=0ASubject : RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans=0A =0AHe is more gracious th an most design holder. Certainly more than I would be, but nonetheless I w ould question a person's character who would not purchase plans from the de sign holder just to save a couple bucks on a $10,000+ airplane. This is no reflection on you...well a little, but on the purchaser. Andrew deserves t he money as without him there would be no more Piet plans.=0A=0ADoug Dever =0AIn beautiful Stow Ohio=0A=0A=0A> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Piete npol plans=0A> From: dlplett@swko.net=0A> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 11:18:05 -0 700=0A> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0A> =0A> --> Pietenpol-List messag e posted by: "Dan P" =0A> =0A> >From Andrew Pietenpol.=0A > =0A> --------=0A> Dan Plett=0A> N28WH=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Read this t opic online here:=0A> =0A> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=42 9778#429778=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Attachments: =0A> =0A> http://forums.ma tronics.com/files/image_670.jpg=0A& Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse , Chat, FAQ,=0A>=================== ======0A> =0A> =0A> =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:58 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Evening flight Then I think I will have you covered! Ray Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2014, at 7:40 PM, Jim Boyer wrote: > > > Hi Ray, > No I have to mount the pitot tube and have to make a L bracket to mount it . That is what I will be working on tomorrow. I also have to order about 18 f eet of 1/4 inch Nylon II tubing for the pitot/static tube. Then the wings ar e ready to cover. I only have everything primed right now so when wings are c overed and primed then it is time for color coats. > > If any of your pieces of aluminium are at least 4 1/2 inches or longer tha t will work too. > Thanks, > Jim > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: W & B, CG, and LG location question From: "William Wynne" Grant: Here is a game plan in two parts, phase one we will rough it in the ball park, and part two we can do a sharp calculation adjusted for your plane. This path for using the W&B data we collected is basically the same no matter which engine or fuselage length a builder selects. 1) Pick a plane with the same engine and fuselage length, and similar configuration; In your case, lets look at the Corvair section of the articles Ryan and I produced. There are 4 planes in the table. Plane #1 is Randy Bush's 500 hr Piet : http://flycorvair.net/2013/07/11/randy-bushs-pietenpol-hits-500-hours/ note that his maximum pilot weight is 178 pounds, well below your target. Plane #2 is one of the steel tube Big Piets from GA, it is built differently than your plane, so it is not a good starting point. Plane #3 Is Kevin Purtee's Piet: http://flycorvair.net/2012/10/25/guest-writer-pietenpol-builderflyer-kevin-purtee/ note that it is in CG with any pilot from 151 to 310 pounds. This is your target. Plane #4 is the uncovered project that becomes the French Valley Piet: http://flycorvair.net/2013/01/08/new-pietenpol-eaa-1279-french-valley-ca/ Their plane was unfinished and doesn't have complete data for you, but I know from following the finished project they do not have the plane in a configuration to carry a pilot much over 170 pounds. ------------------------------- So Focusing in on Plane #3, What are the major differences with your plane? You mentioned your fuselage being 2" longer in the front bay, (this is an easy calculation to adjust) but lets check some other points: Kevin's Length from the prop flange to the firewall is 33" (MML), I need to know is your plane is different. Second, Kevin's plane had the top of the pilot seat back, on the front face where it met the longeron, 76.5" from the firewall (PSL). Theoretically your plane with the two extra inches in the fuselage front bay will be 78.5", please measure this and confirm it. Kevin's plane had the leading edge of the wing 12.6" behind the firewall (WL). Note that it also had the main landing gear axle 5.5" behind the Leading edge (MGL), or 18.1" behind his firewall. As we go through this, you may get a better picture of why Ryan and I settled on the describing the W&B in the terms we did, as it helps to clarify comparisons between planes and assists in calculations. Let me know the two items above, your MML and your PSL and we will go on to the next step. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=429895#429895 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:40 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Used Pietenpol plans From: "William Wynne" Food for thought: If a plane was built, or the major portion of a plane was built from a set of plans, it seems to me the plans would go with the plane. A second owner of a finished plane not getting the plans is akin to a guy buying a certified airplane but not picking up the log books. The most important thing in a set of logs is not maintenance, it is what makes that individual plane different than others (337s, W&B, options). Since every homebuilt is one of a kind, the plans it was built from are a very important part of the records. Second owners of home builts have an atrocious safety record that is a major threat to our freedom to build. That's not an opinion, I have sat in on kit industry meetings where Feds have directly said this. ------------------------------------- Good reason #1 to buy new plans from the legitimate source: Access to all the data. Many of the people we worked with on the W&B project didn't get their plans from Don Pietenpol, and thus they could never ask "Is there a W&B sheet?" which there was, available from Don for the asking, which also contained the vital modern landing gear location. I bought my plans from Don in 1989 and got this information with the plans set. People who chose to get plans from other sources missed it and blindly built themselves into a CG corner. Many cheap builders think that everything they need to know can be found on the net. We have plenty of evidence that this isn't actually true, and access to any support from a good source is well worth buying. --------------------------------------- I read Andrew's reply and to me it said "One set of plans, one plane". I am not so sure he understood that the plans had been used to already produce one plane? Many people think that one plane from a set of plans. Consider this instead: One set of support and education from one set of plans, which I think of as even more fair. If four guys successively own the same set of plans, and each of them utilizes many hours of the providers time to learn a lot about building, I think they are abusing the system. If a designer teaches a guy a lot about building, say 10 hours of email and phone calls, then he earned minimum wage teaching that guy something about planes, and it isn't fair if the 2nd, 3rd and fourth guy get to reduce this to 1/4 min wage. ----------------------------------------- The next time at anyone is at Oshkosh, and you hear people complaining that they whole focus is on products for the wealthy, remember this topic, and understand that there would be many more plans built options for working guys if rank and file homebuilders just bought plans from the people that worked to develop them and provide support for the designs. I personally know kit designers who will not sell plans solely for this reason. You can go all the way back to the 1950s, and no one should have bought Cougar plans, but they did because Wittman asked a fair price for his Tailwind plans and the support he gave. Cheap people saved $100 on plans and got the lesser plane by a long shot. -------------------------------------- PS to Bill Budgell: When you are mad at people, call them out by name, it works better than using terms like "you people." General terms cause the very kind of negativity you don't like, and don't explain what it is you object to. If you think that I personally am harming Piet building, please say so. The verbal rifle bullet makes a better point that the verbal car bomb, and spares the collateral damage to the people you didn't want to include in "you people." 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