Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:24 AM - Placards and Markings (Ken Bickers)
2. 07:55 AM - Re: Placards and Markings (Ben Charvet)
3. 08:37 AM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags)
4. 10:44 AM - airspeed markings (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
5. 12:29 PM - Re: airspeed markings (Steven Dortch)
6. 12:34 PM - Re: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... (Jim Boyer)
7. 01:32 PM - New Bird in the Air (jeff wilson)
8. 04:35 PM - Re: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... (danhelsper@aol.com)
9. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Placards and Markings (Ken Bickers)
10. 07:44 PM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags)
11. 08:11 PM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags)
12. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: Placards and Markings (Gary Boothe)
13. 09:54 PM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Placards and Markings |
Folks, I could use some advice. I'm working on the placards and markings.
One on which I haven't found guidance is how to estimate or determine Vno,
which is the top of the green arc and bottom of the yellow arc on the
airspeed indicator. Anyone know how this is calculated? Cheers, Ken
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Placards and Markings |
I dont remember how I decided but remember what you choose can always be cha
nged. My long fuse A65 Piet is not happy above 80 to 85 mph if you want a st
arting point
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Ken Bickers <bickers.ken@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Folks, I could use some advice. I'm working on the placards and markings.
One on which I haven't found guidance is how to estimate or determine Vno,
which is the top of the green arc and bottom of the yellow arc on the airsp
eed indicator. Anyone know how this is calculated? Cheers, Ken
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Placards and Markings |
Ken;
This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some info
that I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you come
up with computationally.
For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established,
23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is between VC,min
and 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of the square
root of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utility
category airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S)
and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight. The
factor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20
(the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximum
forward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level.
Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need not
exceed VC.
We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice based
ultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VA stall
speeds are not involved in the calculation.
What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affects
the stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weight
and is constant with actual weight.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431845#431845
Message 4
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| Subject: | airspeed markings |
Ken-I took the very scientific approach and marked mine similarly to the Ae
ronca Champ I used
to fly with the photo below to illustrate.
Truthfully, in flying practice, I have dove for speed for long, swooping,
barn door wingovers and about 90 is about all the
faster I would ever want to get in my Piet. It talks to you.....you'll kn
ow.
To do it over again I would make the yellow arc from 80 to 95 and redline i
t at 95.
Totally unscientific but there you have it. Your inspector probably won
't give a rip anyway and if he does you can always
move your colors around.
Mike C.
Ohio
[cid:image001.jpg@01CFE7B4.E02F4EC0]
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: airspeed markings |
Just a review to clear my mind. I will be marking mine.
The redline <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redline> mark indicates *V*NE
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_speeds>, or *velocity (never exceed)*. This
is the maximum demonstrated safe airspeed that the aircraft must not exceed
under any circumstances. I would say about 100MPH. (though I have seen a
VNE of about 114 Knots.) Go faster than this and things start to break.
The yellow band is the caution area, which runs from *V*NO (*maximum
structural cruise speed*) to *V*NE. OR how what OK in smooth air but is too
fast in turbulance. If it is rough and you fly this fast, you might break
parts, IE you exceed the Gs for the plane. Fly slower to keep the plane
together in turbulence.
A green band runs from *V*S1 to *V*NO. is the stall speed
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_speed> Up to VNO. Fly this speed at
anytime and you will be OK.
I am just thinking out loud. for markings before I fly the plane
Redline (VNE) 86 knots (100 mph)
*Bottom <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_speed> of green arc (Stall)* 30
knots (35 mph)
Green arc 30 knot to 70 Knots (35MPH to 80MPH)
Yellow Arc 70 Knots to 86 Knots (80 to 100 MPH)
There is also a Maneuvering Speed that you slow down to in case of really
hard turbulance. I would guess about 60 MPH?
I will be using both knots and MPH. My front cockpit has Knots and My rear
has MPH.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
OT in my Old Bonanza (1948) My VNE is 202 MPH and the plane will do that in
a dive. If you pull back hard whle going this fast not much will happen,
BUT if you push forward at this speed the Vtail will start to flutter and
may depart the plane. This is BAD.
The Green arc is 55 to 160 MPH (Yellow arc starts here.) It will cruse at
170MPH indicated at 8,000 WOT. So yes, you can cruse in the yellow. Go
higher and your indicated airspeed goes down but true airspeed gets
slightly faster, with less fuel burn. Cruse at 12,500 indicates 140 MPH
with true airspeed at 175MPH.
The white arc is from 48 to 100 MPH.
Dirty Stall speed to MAX Flaps and Max gear down speed is 100 MPH. In other
words Landing configuration.
Maneuvering speed (Rough turbulence) is 120MPH.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... |
Hi Mark,
We will miss you as well but we all must go where the jobs are. Have a good move
and hopefully will see you at Brodhead.
Cheers,
Jim B.
Message 7
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| Subject: | New Bird in the Air |
Scrounge Dawg Pietenpol
Scrounge Dawg Pietenpol
View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo
Begun in November 2010 by many members of EAA 64 this video was done the day after
she got her Airworthiness Certificate.
Test Pilot Brian Kissinger, Video and editing by Jeff Wilson. Project manager Mike
Brenner. Others that I can remember, Mike Lotz, Al Bane, Bob Fisch, Doug M.,
Jeff Beckwith, ...etc...etc... etc.
Watch for this bird and many others to accompany her to Brodhead 2015.
Hopefully the above link to the youtube video goes through,. If not go to youtube
and search "Scrounge Dawg Pietenpol"
Jeff Wilson
H49
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... |
Mark,=0A=0A=0AI am in Puryear, TN, 2 1/2 hrs west of Nashvil
le. I would be very glad to meet you in person and talk
Piets!=0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0ALoensloe Airfield=0APuryear, TN=0A=0A=0A-----
Original Message-----=0AFrom: Mark Roberts <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>=0ATo:
pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Mon, Oct 13,
2014 9:06 pm=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: So long west coast piete
rs :( Hello Nashville...=0A=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message posted
by: "Mark Roberts" <mark.rbrts1@gmail.com>=0A=0AWell, after the late
st job layoff, I am saying good bye to California and hell
o =0Ato Nashville. I am relocating Wednesday and returning
to move my stuff at =0AChristmas, including the project such.
As it is right now. I hope to be able to =0Afly to Bro
dhead as it will be closer, and perhaps see some of my w
est coast =0Abuddies again. I was able to see Jorge from
Hanford yesterday, but Mike and =0AVic, Gary and the west co
ast contingent I will miss indeed.=0A=0ASo, who's in and aroun
d the Nashville area? Looking for some good plane chatting =0A
friends when I get back on my feet there.=0A=0ACheers!=0A=0AMark
Roberts=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums
===========================
===========================
===========================
===========================0A
===========================
===========================
===========================
===============0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Placards and Markings |
Oscar, thanks. This is helpful. I don't have a good read on Vc. Estimating based
on (W/S) is straightforward. Plus with some reasonable guesses about Vc, I should
be able to make a preliminary stab at it from that angle too. Cheers, Ken
> On Oct 14, 2014, at 11:37 AM, taildrags <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken;
>
> This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some info
that I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you come
up with computationally.
>
> For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established,
23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is between
VC,min and 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of the
square root of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utility
category airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S)
and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight.
The factor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20
(the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximum
forward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level.
>
> Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need not
exceed VC.
>
> We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice based
ultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VA
stall speeds are not involved in the calculation.
>
> What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affects
the stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weight
and is constant with actual weight.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431845#431845
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Placards and Markings |
Ken;
I've run through the formulae using the specifications for the Air Camper as posted
on the Pietenpol family website, and they end up not making sense. For example,
calculating the wing loading using those specifications gives W/S = 1080/140
= 7.71, so 33 times the square root of 7.71 comes out with a design cruise
speed Vc of 91.6 MPH and I don't think there are many Piets that cruise at
that speed. You're going to have to just come up with your own markings and
ranges.
I'll look at my ASI next time I'm at the hangar, but I seem to recall the bottom
of the green arc being somewhere around 28-30 (the Pietenpol family website
shows 'landing speed' as 35, which sounds about right). I believe my redline
Vne is at 95 MPH. My airplane cruises best at around 70 MPH so I would expect
the top of the green to be at around 75-80 but I'll have to look at it.
None of the other conventional formulae seem to work for Air Campers either. For
example, the conventional formula (rule of thumb) for design dive speed is
that Vd = 1.4 * Vc, where Vc is determined using the 33 times the square root
of the wing loading. That would put the design dive speed for an Air Camper at
128 MPH!!! Going from there, the conventional Vne would be 0.9 times the dive
speed, or 115 MPH. I don't know of anyone who has redlined their Air Camper
that high, but there may be some out there. My airplane feels very jittery
and uncomfortable if I get it above 90-95, which I have done a couple of times.
The Corvair Piets like Kevin Purtee's and Gary Boothe's may provide data on higher
airspeeds than the Ford and Continental powered planes, since they do cruise
faster and may have higher airspeed ranges than others.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431889#431889
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Placards and Markings |
Ken;
By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure to
start a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard. My
airplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry,
under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..." registration
markings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registration
markings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers,
then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry.
My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since the aircraft
cannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat. There
is no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG within
the allowable range for the aircraft.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431891#431891
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Placards and Markings |
FWIW, my FAA inspector could care less about the "NX" on my N-number. He only wanted
to see the word "EXPERIMENTAL" somewhere on the foreword panel.
Gary
NX308MB
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 14, 2014, at 8:10 PM, taildrags <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Ken;
>
> By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure to
start a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard.
My airplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry,
under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..."
registration markings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registration
markings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers,
then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry.
>
> My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since the
aircraft cannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat.
There is no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG within
the allowable range for the aircraft.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431891#431891
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Placards and Markings |
Gary: I would have stenciled the word "LATNEMIREPXE" in nice 2" letters clearly
and permanently on the *backside* of the forward instrument panel to satisfy
the inspector. Clearly visible using a hand-held inspection mirror that you provide
the passenger ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431899#431899
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