---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/14/14: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:24 AM - Placards and Markings (Ken Bickers) 2. 07:55 AM - Re: Placards and Markings (Ben Charvet) 3. 08:37 AM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags) 4. 10:44 AM - airspeed markings (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 5. 12:29 PM - Re: airspeed markings (Steven Dortch) 6. 12:34 PM - Re: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... (Jim Boyer) 7. 01:32 PM - New Bird in the Air (jeff wilson) 8. 04:35 PM - Re: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... (danhelsper@aol.com) 9. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Placards and Markings (Ken Bickers) 10. 07:44 PM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags) 11. 08:11 PM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags) 12. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: Placards and Markings (Gary Boothe) 13. 09:54 PM - Re: Placards and Markings (taildrags) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:44 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Placards and Markings From: Ken Bickers Folks, I could use some advice. I'm working on the placards and markings. One on which I haven't found guidance is how to estimate or determine Vno, which is the top of the green arc and bottom of the yellow arc on the airspeed indicator. Anyone know how this is calculated? Cheers, Ken ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:16 AM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Placards and Markings I dont remember how I decided but remember what you choose can always be cha nged. My long fuse A65 Piet is not happy above 80 to 85 mph if you want a st arting point Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Ken Bickers wrote: > > Folks, I could use some advice. I'm working on the placards and markings. One on which I haven't found guidance is how to estimate or determine Vno, which is the top of the green arc and bottom of the yellow arc on the airsp eed indicator. Anyone know how this is calculated? Cheers, Ken > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:49 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings From: "taildrags" Ken; This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some info that I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you come up with computationally. For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established, 23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is between VC,min and 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of the square root of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utility category airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S) and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight. The factor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20 (the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximum forward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level. Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need not exceed VC. We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice based ultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VA stall speeds are not involved in the calculation. What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affects the stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weight and is constant with actual weight. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431845#431845 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:19 AM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: airspeed markings Ken-I took the very scientific approach and marked mine similarly to the Ae ronca Champ I used to fly with the photo below to illustrate. Truthfully, in flying practice, I have dove for speed for long, swooping, barn door wingovers and about 90 is about all the faster I would ever want to get in my Piet. It talks to you.....you'll kn ow. To do it over again I would make the yellow arc from 80 to 95 and redline i t at 95. Totally unscientific but there you have it. Your inspector probably won 't give a rip anyway and if he does you can always move your colors around. Mike C. Ohio [cid:image001.jpg@01CFE7B4.E02F4EC0] ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: airspeed markings From: Steven Dortch Just a review to clear my mind. I will be marking mine. The redline mark indicates *V*NE , or *velocity (never exceed)*. This is the maximum demonstrated safe airspeed that the aircraft must not exceed under any circumstances. I would say about 100MPH. (though I have seen a VNE of about 114 Knots.) Go faster than this and things start to break. The yellow band is the caution area, which runs from *V*NO (*maximum structural cruise speed*) to *V*NE. OR how what OK in smooth air but is too fast in turbulance. If it is rough and you fly this fast, you might break parts, IE you exceed the Gs for the plane. Fly slower to keep the plane together in turbulence. A green band runs from *V*S1 to *V*NO. is the stall speed Up to VNO. Fly this speed at anytime and you will be OK. I am just thinking out loud. for markings before I fly the plane Redline (VNE) 86 knots (100 mph) *Bottom of green arc (Stall)* 30 knots (35 mph) Green arc 30 knot to 70 Knots (35MPH to 80MPH) Yellow Arc 70 Knots to 86 Knots (80 to 100 MPH) There is also a Maneuvering Speed that you slow down to in case of really hard turbulance. I would guess about 60 MPH? I will be using both knots and MPH. My front cockpit has Knots and My rear has MPH. Blue Skies, Steve D OT in my Old Bonanza (1948) My VNE is 202 MPH and the plane will do that in a dive. If you pull back hard whle going this fast not much will happen, BUT if you push forward at this speed the Vtail will start to flutter and may depart the plane. This is BAD. The Green arc is 55 to 160 MPH (Yellow arc starts here.) It will cruse at 170MPH indicated at 8,000 WOT. So yes, you can cruse in the yellow. Go higher and your indicated airspeed goes down but true airspeed gets slightly faster, with less fuel burn. Cruse at 12,500 indicates 140 MPH with true airspeed at 175MPH. The white arc is from 48 to 100 MPH. Dirty Stall speed to MAX Flaps and Max gear down speed is 100 MPH. In other words Landing configuration. Maneuvering speed (Rough turbulence) is 120MPH. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:10 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... Hi Mark, We will miss you as well but we all must go where the jobs are. Have a good move and hopefully will see you at Brodhead. Cheers, Jim B. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:33 PM PST US From: jeff wilson Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Bird in the Air Scrounge Dawg Pietenpol Scrounge Dawg Pietenpol View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo Begun in November 2010 by many members of EAA 64 this video was done the day after she got her Airworthiness Certificate. Test Pilot Brian Kissinger, Video and editing by Jeff Wilson. Project manager Mike Brenner. Others that I can remember, Mike Lotz, Al Bane, Bob Fisch, Doug M., Jeff Beckwith, ...etc...etc... etc. Watch for this bird and many others to accompany her to Brodhead 2015. Hopefully the above link to the youtube video goes through,. If not go to youtube and search "Scrounge Dawg Pietenpol" Jeff Wilson H49 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: So long west coast pieters :( Hello Nashville... From: danhelsper@aol.com Mark,=0A=0A=0AI am in Puryear, TN, 2 1/2 hrs west of Nashvil le. I would be very glad to meet you in person and talk Piets!=0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0ALoensloe Airfield=0APuryear, TN=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message-----=0AFrom: Mark Roberts =0ATo: pietenpol-list =0ASent: Mon, Oct 13, 2014 9:06 pm=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: So long west coast piete rs :( Hello Nashville...=0A=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Mark Roberts" =0A=0AWell, after the late st job layoff, I am saying good bye to California and hell o =0Ato Nashville. I am relocating Wednesday and returning to move my stuff at =0AChristmas, including the project such. As it is right now. I hope to be able to =0Afly to Bro dhead as it will be closer, and perhaps see some of my w est coast =0Abuddies again. I was able to see Jorge from Hanford yesterday, but Mike and =0AVic, Gary and the west co ast contingent I will miss indeed.=0A=0ASo, who's in and aroun d the Nashville area? Looking for some good plane chatting =0A friends when I get back on my feet there.=0A=0ACheers!=0A=0AMark Roberts=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums =========================== =========================== =========================== ===========================0A =========================== =========================== =========================== ===============0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:02 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings From: Ken Bickers Oscar, thanks. This is helpful. I don't have a good read on Vc. Estimating based on (W/S) is straightforward. Plus with some reasonable guesses about Vc, I should be able to make a preliminary stab at it from that angle too. Cheers, Ken > On Oct 14, 2014, at 11:37 AM, taildrags wrote: > > > Ken; > > This one is a bit tricky, but for your evening mental exercise, here's some info that I snagged directly off the web. I would be interested in what you come up with computationally. > > For part 23 airplanes that are not turbine powered and VD has not been established, 23.1505(b) establishes VNO must be established such that it is between VC,min and 0.89*VNE. Section 23.335 defines VC as a multiplying factor of the square root of wing loading at design maximum takeoff weight. For normal and utility category airplanes, VC is design cruising speed and is be between 33 (W/S) and 0.9 VH where W/S is wing loading at the design maximum takeoff weight. The factor 33 may be scaled as low as 28.6 based on W/S values greater than 20 (the regs do not provide units on any of these numbers...). VH is the maximum forward airpseed in level flight at maximum continuous power at sea level. > > Section 23.335 also defines VA and the only relation to VC is that VA need not exceed VC. > > We can see from this information that establishing VNO is a design choice based ultimately upon maximum possible wing loading as a guideline and unlike VA stall speeds are not involved in the calculation. > > What you can take from this is that VA will vary by weight (because this affects the stall speed) but VNO is based upon wing loading at max gross takeoff weight and is constant with actual weight. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431845#431845 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings From: "taildrags" Ken; I've run through the formulae using the specifications for the Air Camper as posted on the Pietenpol family website, and they end up not making sense. For example, calculating the wing loading using those specifications gives W/S = 1080/140 = 7.71, so 33 times the square root of 7.71 comes out with a design cruise speed Vc of 91.6 MPH and I don't think there are many Piets that cruise at that speed. You're going to have to just come up with your own markings and ranges. I'll look at my ASI next time I'm at the hangar, but I seem to recall the bottom of the green arc being somewhere around 28-30 (the Pietenpol family website shows 'landing speed' as 35, which sounds about right). I believe my redline Vne is at 95 MPH. My airplane cruises best at around 70 MPH so I would expect the top of the green to be at around 75-80 but I'll have to look at it. None of the other conventional formulae seem to work for Air Campers either. For example, the conventional formula (rule of thumb) for design dive speed is that Vd = 1.4 * Vc, where Vc is determined using the 33 times the square root of the wing loading. That would put the design dive speed for an Air Camper at 128 MPH!!! Going from there, the conventional Vne would be 0.9 times the dive speed, or 115 MPH. I don't know of anyone who has redlined their Air Camper that high, but there may be some out there. My airplane feels very jittery and uncomfortable if I get it above 90-95, which I have done a couple of times. The Corvair Piets like Kevin Purtee's and Gary Boothe's may provide data on higher airspeeds than the Ford and Continental powered planes, since they do cruise faster and may have higher airspeed ranges than others. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431889#431889 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings From: "taildrags" Ken; By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure to start a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard. My airplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry, under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..." registration markings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registration markings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers, then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry. My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since the aircraft cannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat. There is no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG within the allowable range for the aircraft. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431891#431891 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings From: Gary Boothe FWIW, my FAA inspector could care less about the "NX" on my N-number. He only wanted to see the word "EXPERIMENTAL" somewhere on the foreword panel. Gary NX308MB Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 14, 2014, at 8:10 PM, taildrags wrote: > > > Ken; > > By the way, you didn't mention any questions about placards but you're sure to start a lively discussion by asking about the "passenger warning" placard. My airplane and others do not have the "EXPERIMENTAL" letters by the cockpit entry, under the exception in the FARs that covers aircraft bearing the "NX..." registration markings. This is covered in 14 CFR 14.22 and 23. If the registration markings do not include the X between the N and the registration numbers, then the "EXPERIMENTAL" marking is required near the cockpit entry. > > My aircraft is placarded "REAR SEAT SOLO ONLY" in the front cockpit since the aircraft cannot be operated within its limitations solo from the front seat. There is no front seat solo loading configuration that will keep the CG within the allowable range for the aircraft. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431891#431891 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Placards and Markings From: "taildrags" Gary: I would have stenciled the word "LATNEMIREPXE" in nice 2" letters clearly and permanently on the *backside* of the forward instrument panel to satisfy the inspector. Clearly visible using a hand-held inspection mirror that you provide the passenger ;o) -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=431899#431899 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.