Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:23 AM - Re: Re: Getting Started Again (Jack)
2. 03:07 AM - Re: Getting Started Again (danhelsper@aol.com)
3. 03:59 AM - Re: Getting Started Again (Jack)
4. 10:39 AM - Re: Pietenpol in Print (taildrags)
5. 10:44 AM - Re: Getting Started Again (taildrags)
6. 10:50 AM - Re: the Eagle (taildrags)
7. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol in Print (glenschweizer@yahoo.com)
8. 11:36 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol in Print (Dennis Engelkenjohn)
9. 11:58 AM - Fw: Re: Pietenpol in Print (glenschweizer@yahoo.com)
10. 04:31 PM - =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFBpZXRlbnBvbC1MaXN0OiBSZTogdGhlIEVhZ2xl? (=?utf-8?B?c3RldmVuLmQuZG9ydGNoQGdtYWlsLmNvbQ==?=)
11. 06:01 PM - Re: the Eagle (taildrags)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Getting Started Again |
Yes it is Dan, they were used on various models, heated, operable to 100,000 feet
and 6Gs. Two day movement. Just what a Piet needs! Works well.
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Dec 5, 2014, at 10:31 PM, "dwilson" <marwilson@charter.net> wrote:
>
>
> Jack, Is that one of those Russian automatic mechanical clocks out of a MIG
23 ? Please identify...
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435399#435399
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Getting Started Again |
Beautiful panel. Yes Jack that hardware should be brass. Then
it will be curmudgeon-approved. Available (of course) from Mcmas
terCarr. Love the clock also.=0A=0A=0ADan Helsper=0ALoensloe Airfiel
d=0APuryear, TN=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: Jack <jack@te
xtors.com>=0ATo: pietenpol-list <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>=0ASent: Fri
, Dec 5, 2014 4:55 pm=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Getting Started
Again=0A=0A=0A=0AWell after a move and about a year, finally
getting started on the Piet again. It's been tough finding
(and remembering) where everything is and where I left off.
Looking forward to moving forward. Excuse the incorrect ha
rdware. Does anybody have a good source for the hardware?
Should it be brass?=0AThanks!=0A <<...>> =0AJack Textor=0AWest
Des Moines, IA=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Getting Started Again |
Ray 11 gallons in the center section and a cub nose tank which I have not ca
lculated its volume. Know it's overkill...
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Dec 5, 2014, at 9:46 PM, Ray Krause <raykrause@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>
> Jack,
>
> Beautiful panel! Looks like you might be planning on IFR, how much fuel wi
ll you be carrying?
>
> Nice to see you building again,
>
> Ray Krause
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Dec 5, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Jack <jack@textors.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well after a move and about a year, finally getting started on the Piet a
gain. It's been tough finding (and remembering) where everything is and whe
re I left off. Looking forward to moving forward. Excuse the incorrect har
dware. Does anybody have a good source for the hardware? Should it be bras
s?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> <<...>>
>>
>> Jack Textor
>>
>> West Des Moines, IA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <Panel12-5-14.png>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol in Print |
The Rudolph Piet just goes to prove that Ford powered Piets can fly on and on and
on!
As far as the EAA, I quit the association some years ago when the flagship publication
(the main reason I joined EAA 35 years ago) featured "homebuilts" that
cost in the six figures, green tractors, and other things that did not interest
me or reflect what I consider to be experimental aviation. The one shining
star in the EAA line of publications has been the "Hints for Homebuilders" series
of video clips. THAT is real stuff, by real people, for real people. Yes,
they have a few "factory people" in some of the videos, but they are sharing
valuable skills and information.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435424#435424
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Getting Started Again |
Jack;
You'll find that the layer of dust and rust on your building skills is pretty thin
and it wipes off easily. Glad you're back in the shop! To elaborate a bit
on what Dan said about panel hardware, it's because of the mag compass that
brass (or nonferrous) hardware is recommended. Ferrous metal in proximity to
the compass can affect it. I don't see your mag compass in the picture, so maybe
if you have it located on the underside of the wing it won't matter if you
don't use brass hardware on your panel. I think brass would enhance the already
very attractive look of the panel though.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435425#435425
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Jake;
Not sure what you have in mind for the nose art for your airplane, but several of us have had very good results working with Dennis Demeter at Avgrafix. http://www.avgrafix.com/ His work is excellent and his prices are reasonable for custom graphics. Matter of fact, Denny is making me some vinyl graphics for the two kayaks that I'm building for my wife and I. Also secret, but I hope to unveil them in time to go paddling next spring. A lot of Piet building skills translate directly over to boat-building, too.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435426#435426
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol in Print |
Hi all
I agree with points made about changes at EAA. They've (we've) become more and
more corporate over the years. I don't like the fact that 6 figure aircraft
are promoted or reviewed either. I think a lot of it stems from people wanting
instant airplane,quick build, high performance stuff which is way beyond many
(my) budgets.
On the other hand, EAA has led the way to many positive changes as far as FAA
regs regarding GA. Also, where else can I get assistance from a recognized
Tech. Counsellor?
I feel that even considering the negative aspects we are a great organization.
Glen Schweizer
EAA#1133012
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:38 AM, "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The Rudolph Piet just goes to prove that Ford powered Piets can fly on and on
and on!
>
> As far as the EAA, I quit the association some years ago when the flagship publication
(the main reason I joined EAA 35 years ago) featured "homebuilts" that
cost in the six figures, green tractors, and other things that did not interest
me or reflect what I consider to be experimental aviation. The one shining
star in the EAA line of publications has been the "Hints for Homebuilders"
series of video clips. THAT is real stuff, by real people, for real people.
Yes, they have a few "factory people" in some of the videos, but they are sharing
valuable skills and information.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435424#435424
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol in Print |
The "Experimenter" was more to my liking. It is still online, but apparently
most members are not interested in real homebuilding anymore. When I tell
people I am building a Pietenpol the first question is: "Where did you get
your kit?"
I guess most people interested in aviation now are of the carriage trade
and several hundred thousand dollars is peanuts and so the EAA caters to
them. At least that was the feeling I got since Paul Poberezny hated
ultralights so much. I assume the EAA knows their target market better than
I do.
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: taildrags
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 12:38 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol in Print
The Rudolph Piet just goes to prove that Ford powered Piets can fly on and
on and on!
As far as the EAA, I quit the association some years ago when the flagship
publication (the main reason I joined EAA 35 years ago) featured
"homebuilts" that cost in the six figures, green tractors, and other things
that did not interest me or reflect what I consider to be experimental
aviation. The one shining star in the EAA line of publications has been the
"Hints for Homebuilders" series of video clips. THAT is real stuff, by real
people, for real people. Yes, they have a few "factory people" in some of
the videos, but they are sharing valuable skills and information.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435424#435424
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol in Print |
Sent from my iPhone
Begin forwarded message:
> From: glenschweizer@yahoo.com
> Date: December 6, 2014 at 11:16:39 AM PST
> To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol in Print
>
> Hi all
> I agree with points made about changes at EAA. They've (we've) become mor
e and more corporate over the years. I don't like the fact that 6 figure ai
rcraft are promoted or reviewed either. I think a lot of it stems from peop
le wanting instant airplane,quick build, high performance stuff which is way
beyond many (my) budgets.
> On the other hand, EAA has led the way to many positive changes as far a
s FAA regs regarding GA. Also, where else can I get assistance from a recog
nized Tech. Counsellor?
> I feel that even considering the negative aspects we are a great organ
ization. Glen Schweizer
> EAA#1133012
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:38 AM, "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The Rudolph Piet just goes to prove that Ford powered Piets can fly on an
d on and on!
>>
>> As far as the EAA, I quit the association some years ago when the flagshi
p publication (the main reason I joined EAA 35 years ago) featured "homebuil
ts" that cost in the six figures, green tractors, and other things that did n
ot interest me or reflect what I consider to be experimental aviation. The o
ne shining star in the EAA line of publications has been the "Hints for Hom
ebuilders" series of video clips. THAT is real stuff, by real people, for r
eal people. Yes, they have a few "factory people" in some of the videos, bu
t they are sharing valuable skills and information.
>>
>> --------
>> Oscar Zuniga
>> Medford, OR
>> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
>> A75 power
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435424#435424
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>>
>>
>>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFBpZXRlbnBvbC1MaXN0OiBSZTogdGhlIEVhZ2xl? |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Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Graphics are secret, kayaks are definitely NOT! I am very pleased to recommend and promote the skin-on-frame kayaks and boats designed by Dave Gentry. Simple to build, affordable, well documented and tested, and beautiful boats. http://gentrycustomboats.com/home.html . I'm building a pair of Chuckanut 12 kayaks and I also plan to build a Shenandoah Whitehall rowboat for our friends up in Washington who have two young daughters and will soon need to have a way to take the girls and all their camping gear out to the small uninhabited islands in Rosario Strait to show them the beauty of the whole Puget Sound island region from a sturdy rowboat and by the side of a campfire. They already have ocean kayaks, but now with the children and gear they will need a rowboat! Keeps you fit, too, and lets you teach navigation and seamanship while you pull-pull-pull on the oars with your children in the boat and orcas keeping you company.
The only reason this is even vaguely aviation-related is that the skin-on-frame
construction technique uses wood framing with heat-shrunk fabric covering, and
rather than sewing and stapling the fabric on our kayaks, I plan to use Poly-Tak
to cement the fabric to the frames and finishing tapes to complete the overlaps
and seams after heat-tautening the fabric with my covering irons.
Might even fill the flotation compartments fore and aft with ping-pong balls or
empty milk cartons ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435446#435446
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|