Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:56 AM - Re: MIG or TIG? (womenfly2)
2. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: MIG or TIG? (Steven Dortch)
3. 06:17 AM - Pietenpol Aerobatics (Gary Boothe)
4. 06:40 AM - Re: Piet list and BPA slowly dying? (Michael Perez)
5. 07:09 AM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Michael Perez)
6. 07:47 AM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Ray Krause)
7. 07:54 AM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (AircamperN11MS)
8. 08:03 AM - Re: MIG or TIG? (Pocono John)
9. 08:10 AM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Jeff Boatright)
10. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Michael Perez)
11. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (JERRY)
12. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Jack Philips)
13. 09:24 AM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (tools)
14. 09:49 AM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Jack)
15. 10:32 AM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Boatright, Jeffrey)
16. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (JERRY)
17. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Jack)
18. 02:28 PM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (AircamperN11MS)
19. 02:40 PM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (AircamperN11MS)
20. 02:49 PM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Jeff Boatright)
21. 03:29 PM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (tools)
22. 03:48 PM - Landing in the yard. (tools)
23. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Marcus Zechini)
24. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (goffelectric@comcast.net)
25. 05:16 PM - Re: MIG or TIG? (William Wynne)
26. 05:45 PM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (AircamperN11MS)
27. 06:53 PM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Bill Church)
28. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Gary Boothe)
29. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (CatDesigns)
30. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (Michael Groah)
31. 08:17 PM - Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics (jarheadpilot82)
32. 08:54 PM - Re: Corvair College 32 - San Marcos Texas (William Wynne)
Message 1
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Just some background here. I worked for Union Carbide in SC at there welding Div.
We made every type of welding equipment there is in house under the trade-name
LINDE, L-Tec. Now ESAB.
I worked on the welding process and equipment for welding the titanium sheets for
the SR 71, pressure hulls for nuclear subs at General Dynamics and many a ship
built in New Port News VA. I have designed, engineered and tested Millers,
Lincolns, and off-shore brands.
In the past I would say the off-shore welders were as you stated, but today they
are just as good for the dollar. Price does not mean quality or its the best.
Practice develops skill, understanding is knowledge. I would always encourage anyone
to go to their local Tech-school and take a welding course, or your local
welding shop and ask if they could give you a few lessons on welding. This will
give you the back ground and knowledge to understand the weld process and
practice correctly.
Mike .... So many opinions, just read them all an make the best decision for yourself.
WW, thanks for your informative input.
Cheers,
WF2
--------
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437452#437452
Message 2
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i learned to weld about 3 years ago. An old buddy had a pacemaker put in.
Thou shalt not mess with electricity if thou hast a pacemaker. He wanted 2
inch steel pipe corner posts and gate posts for his farm. So i told him I
would do it if he taught me how. About 1/2 of my work ended up buried.
I learned a lot and later fixed some antique bed frames and other small
items. BUT I would not want to fly on my welds.
I like to weld.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:56 AM, womenfly2 <Love2Fly.KAP@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just some background here. I worked for Union Carbide in SC at there
> welding Div. We made every type of welding equipment there is in house
> under the trade-name LINDE, L-Tec. Now ESAB.
>
> I worked on the welding process and equipment for welding the titanium
> sheets for the SR 71, pressure hulls for nuclear subs at General Dynamics
> and many a ship built in New Port News VA. I have designed, engineered and
> tested Millers, Lincolns, and off-shore brands.
>
> In the past I would say the off-shore welders were as you stated, but
> today they are just as good for the dollar. Price does not mean quality or
> its the best.
>
> Practice develops skill, understanding is knowledge. I would always
> encourage anyone to go to their local Tech-school and take a welding
> course, or your local welding shop and ask if they could give you a few
> lessons on welding. This will give you the back ground and knowledge to
> understand the weld process and practice correctly.
>
> Mike .... So many opinions, just read them all an make the best decision
> for yourself.
>
> WW, thanks for your informative input.
>
> Cheers,
> WF2
>
> --------
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437452#437452
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 3
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| Subject: | Pietenpol Aerobatics |
After the recent comments about the antiquated nature of Matronics, I'm not
sure if it can handle this post.
Chris Tracy (www.westcoastpiet.com) sent me this group of photos and a
video. Chris' brother flies a Pitts and lives near our own Scott Liefield.
Admittedly, Scott's Piet is not your average Piet, and Scott is not your
average Piet pilot.
<http://youtu.be/nhBNG3mH-yM> http://youtu.be/nhBNG3mH-yM
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Piet list and BPA slowly dying? |
Well for myself, this is the time of year that I usually have some type of build-a-thon
and have a lot to share as to what I was able to accomplish. However,
since the plane is complete and waiting to be moved to a hangar, I am doing other
things this winter that are non-Pietenpol related. One of these tasks is
rearranging the shop a little and going through all my left over and spare aircraft
building parts and supplies. (Hence the selling of engine parts posted
on the list.) I have also moved on to other interests and may not visit as much
as I had.
I was in a temp. duty assignment at work since September and then took my usual
Christmas vacation. I just didn't have/want to take the time to visit the list.
As I get reorganized and get settled back into a normal work environment,
I SHOULD be able to visit here a little more often; we'll see...
Build complete 8/2014
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Gary/Scott, could you expand as to how Scott's plane is not the 'avearge' Pietenpol;
I am very curious.
Build complete 8/2014
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Good grief! I did not know I was building another aerobatic plane, one was e
nough!
Thanks, great pics and video.
Ray Krause
Waiex N51YX, building Sky Scout
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 22, 2015, at 6:15 AM, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> After the recent comments about the antiquated nature of Matronics, I
=99m not sure if it can handle this post
>
> Chris Tracy (www.westcoastpiet.com) sent me this group of photos and a vid
eo. Chris=99 brother flies a Pitts and lives near our own Scott Liefie
ld. Admittedly, Scott=99s Piet is not your average Piet, and Scott is n
ot your average Piet pilot.
> http://youtu.be/nhBNG3mH-yM
>
> Gary Boothe
> NX308MB
>
> <image.jpeg>
> <IMG_1584.JPG>
> <IMG_1601.JPG>
> <IMG_1588.JPG>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Hi guys,
I'll try and answer all the questions when I get some time. Please ask them. I
have nothing to hide and the plane is certified for aerobatics.
I only ask you all to not try this in other Piets. I would not do it my self.
More later, Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437465#437465
Message 8
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Larry M wrote:
> I'd like to learn to weld. My best idea to date is to attend an EAA seminar
and start making scrap metal.
>
> Other ideas?
> TIG or gas?
>
> Thanks
I took the EAA seminar. For me, it seemed more as an introduction to welding. When
I got home, I still wanted to find a school that taught it or someone to coach
me. No luck.
In the end, I gave up and will pay a welder to do it for me. Here are some answers
I received at the Hatz forum on the subject:
Good luck!
1 - "I use gas because I'm the type who can't rub my head and pat my belly at the
same time. Pushing a gas pedal, guiding a flame front and dabbing a welding
rod all at the same time reminds me of flying a helicopter. And, you can't let
go of anything to scratch your nose. Gas is easier for me, probably because
I've had very little tig instruction. I'm not in a hurry, which is an advantage
of tig. And when gas welding, the issue of stress relieving is easily addressed
during the welding process since the HAZ is not so concentrated in a small
area. And the set up for gas welding is not nearly as expensive as a tig set
up.
There's pros and cons...just some of my thoughts"
2 - "I chose gas because it was cheaper to get set up with and more forgiving for
a new guy. Now that I've used it I would probably move to TIG next time. However,
if you are going to use TIG for your first welding experience, make sure
you can achieve very good fits when cutting your tubing... especially on the
clusters. As others have said, TIG has a much smaller HAZ which means you have
a smaller area affected buy the heat, but this also means that you have to have
a tight fit with your tubing within the HAZ. If you feel that you can cut/grind
your tubing joints such that you can get a nice tight fit, then go ahead
with TIG. You might want to experiment first."
3 - "Here is how it was explained to me by an old-timer.
1) Using a TIG requires much closer tolerances when cutting and fitting tubes.
2) the TIG weld is likely more attractive in the end.
3) The TIG creates heat very close to the weld and therefore sets up major stresses
near the cluster. because of this, the whole cluster, when done, needs to
be heated and normalized with one (maybe two) OA torches. So even if you have
a TIG, you're going to need OA anyway.
4) OA fill bigger gaps easier. Construction is likely to go ahead much more quickly.
With these in mind, carry on and make up your own mind. But do not forget to normalize
the clusters after they're finish welded."
--------
John
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437466#437466
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Hi Scott,
What was changed from plans to allow for your plane to be "certified aerobatic"
(I put in quotes because I don't know what I'm talking about using that phrase).
That is, what was determined to be the weak points in the original Pietenpol
design, how was that determined, and what were the solutions?
Thanks,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437467#437467
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Thanks Scott. That is why I asked; I am curious as to how an aerobatic Pietenpol
compares to a standard Piet. I don't plan to do aerobatics in mine, but I am
intrigued as to how your plane differs.
Build complete 8/2014
Mike Perez
Karetaker Aero
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
I noticed a couple things just looking at the plane. Also some aerobatics if
done properly. The plane don't even know it's doing them. Done wrong and you
are done doing aerobatics forever.
Jerry
Sky Classic
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AircamperN11MS
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
--> <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
Hi guys,
I'll try and answer all the questions when I get some time. Please ask
them. I have nothing to hide and the plane is certified for aerobatics.
I only ask you all to not try this in other Piets. I would not do it my
self.
More later, Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437465#437465
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
That's what I was thinking, Jerry. A barrel roll, like the one done on the
video, if done correctly pulls just slightly over one G all the way around.
Bob Hoover used to do one while pouring a cup of coffee on the instrument
panel. What the extra strength is needed for is the occasional "Oops".
I think I'll hold off from doing any in my Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JERRY
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
I noticed a couple things just looking at the plane. Also some aerobatics if
done properly. The plane don't even know it's doing them. Done wrong and you
are done doing aerobatics forever.
Jerry
Sky Classic
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AircamperN11MS
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
--> <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
Hi guys,
I'll try and answer all the questions when I get some time. Please ask
them. I have nothing to hide and the plane is certified for aerobatics.
I only ask you all to not try this in other Piets. I would not do it my
self.
More later, Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437465#437465
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
I don't think it's specified, merely that the plane has been flight tested to perform
the maneuvers specified. This is individual to that aircraft.
Of course if it fails that test... I assume you don't have a plane to certify!
Seems to basically allow you to endanger yourself only while you vet your plane
for what ever you want, then can perform those maneuvers like a certified aircraft
with the additional restrictions of any other experimental.
Looks like an aileron roll, and the airplane has much larger than normal piet ailerons.
I got a ride in a cub years and years ago. We did a loop which amazed me to no
end. The instructor then told me it wouldn't even do a barrel roll, which, being
the benign maneuver it is, didn't make sense, especially if it would do a
loop. He told me not to trust him, try for myself. Try as I might, no luck,
would just fall out midway. He demonstrated, same thing. These were the days
I was teaching people to fly aerobatics, wasn't like I didn't know anything
about a barrel roll.
It was clear in my attempts though, despite my "credentials" I clearly was not
qualified to do any of this in a light civil. If not for the instructors intervention,
I'd have oversped and then overstressed that puppy in a huge way on
the recovery.
This is pretty varsity stuff, as benign as some of it may seem.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437472#437472
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Didn't notice a parachute...
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jan 22, 2015, at 8:15 AM, "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> After the recent comments about the antiquated nature of Matronics, I
=99m not sure if it can handle this post
>
> Chris Tracy (www.westcoastpiet.com) sent me this group of photos and a vid
eo. Chris=99 brother flies a Pitts and lives near our own Scott Liefie
ld. Admittedly, Scott=99s Piet is not your average Piet, and Scott is n
ot your average Piet pilot.
> http://youtu.be/nhBNG3mH-yM
>
> Gary Boothe
> NX308MB
>
> <image.jpeg>
> <IMG_1584.JPG>
> <IMG_1601.JPG>
> <IMG_1588.JPG>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
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ZXNzYWdlIChpbmNsdWRpbmcgYXR0YWNobWVudHMpLg0K
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
One thing that caught my eye right away was the longer ailerons.
Jerry
Sky Classic
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:03 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
--> <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
That's what I was thinking, Jerry. A barrel roll, like the one done on the
video, if done correctly pulls just slightly over one G all the way around.
Bob Hoover used to do one while pouring a cup of coffee on the instrument
panel. What the extra strength is needed for is the occasional "Oops".
I think I'll hold off from doing any in my Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JERRY
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
I noticed a couple things just looking at the plane. Also some aerobatics if
done properly. The plane don't even know it's doing them. Done wrong and you
are done doing aerobatics forever.
Jerry
Sky Classic
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AircamperN11MS
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
--> <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
Hi guys,
I'll try and answer all the questions when I get some time. Please ask
them. I have nothing to hide and the plane is certified for aerobatics.
I only ask you all to not try this in other Piets. I would not do it my
self.
More later, Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437465#437465
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Whoa see them now, and yes he is sitting high in the saddle.
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Jan 22, 2015, at 12:29 PM, "JERRY" <jerry@skyclassic.net> wrote:
>
>
> One thing that caught my eye right away was the longer ailerons.
>
> Jerry
> Sky Classic
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:03 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
>
> --> <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
>
> That's what I was thinking, Jerry. A barrel roll, like the one done on the
> video, if done correctly pulls just slightly over one G all the way around.
> Bob Hoover used to do one while pouring a cup of coffee on the instrument
> panel. What the extra strength is needed for is the occasional "Oops".
>
> I think I'll hold off from doing any in my Pietenpol.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JERRY
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 11:14 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
>
>
> I noticed a couple things just looking at the plane. Also some aerobatics if
> done properly. The plane don't even know it's doing them. Done wrong and you
> are done doing aerobatics forever.
>
> Jerry
> Sky Classic
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> AircamperN11MS
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 9:54 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
>
> --> <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I'll try and answer all the questions when I get some time. Please ask
> them. I have nothing to hide and the plane is certified for aerobatics.
> I only ask you all to not try this in other Piets. I would not do it my
> self.
>
> More later, Cheers,
>
> --------
> Scott Liefeld
> Flying N11MS since March 1972
> Steel Tube
> C-85-12
> Wire Wheels
> Brodhead in 1996
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437465#437465
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Hello Fellow Pieters,
Well Like I said, I have nothing to hide except the fear that you guys may want
to ban me from the Piet list now. :) Where do I start? How about the use of
the word Certified? I used the term very loosely when I made my last entry.
I should better explain. "Aerobatics" are authorized on my "Operating Limitations"
for "one" person only. It is on the limitations the way it is because
it was done in 1972. Today it is done through a logbook entry. The test pilot
today just states that certain maneuvers have been demonstrated and are safe
to perform. Back in 1972 the maneuvers had to be performed in view of the FAA
person who issued the "Operating Limitations". Mine were so demonstrated. Loops,
Rolls, Stalls, Spins, Hammerheads etc. All positive G's.
The question about the parachute. I can legally fly and do aerobatics without a
chute if I am by myself. If I had a passenger, both persons would need to wear
a chute. Now we all know that there simply is not any room in a Piet for a
chute. This is true with my plane too, so yes I do the aerobatics without one.
I quit doing loops about 15 years ago because the pull up in the beginning
of the loop induced a fare amount of G's to get the plane over the top of the
loop. So now if I want the feeling of the loop I just do a split S. I can do
that and keep the plane under 2-G's safely. Why load the plane up if I don't
need to? Yes the barrel only puts a little more than 1-G on the plane.
Okay, so now on to the air-frame differences. I admit that it looks like a Piet
but under the fabric, it is not. I have a steel tube fuselage. It is not the
fuse on the Pietenpol drawings. The dimensions are the same as the Piet but
the structure is not. I have a lot more tubing in mine. I also have steel
tail feathers. The wing is also different hence the bigger ailerons. The wings
were actually built to the "REED" Clipped wing drawings for the J-3 cub. These
are the wings that allow the guys to do acro in the cubs. So the wing is
a proven acro wing. I only have a 27 foot wing span, this make the ailerons
look huge.
This is only a brief description of the big differences and it will only cause
more questions, but that is okay with me. Like you guys, I like talking about
my plane.
So I'm sure some of you are wondering what the G limitations are on my plane?
Back in the mid 1970's an engineer from General Dynamics did the calculations
for us. His name was Bud Evans. His name may be familiar to so of you old timers.
He is the guy that designed the Volksplane one and two. He was very well
qualified to do the math. Anyway to the point. the documents I have from him
say the plane is good for 4.2 G's. He even told us where it would fail if
it did. Yes I do need be nice and handle the plane gently. The good part is
that the plane is so draggy that it doesn't pick up much speed during the descents
making it easy to not overload the thing.
Attached is a naked pic of the fuse.
Please feel free to ask more questions. I would like you all to understand that
I am very much in support of the Piet and the community. I don't pretend that
mine is a Piet, it very much looks like one from 100 feet. It is supposed
to. Piets are cool. I just happen to have one of the most different snowflakes
from the rest.
Cheers all, More later,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437481#437481
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_117_140.jpg
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Oh, one fun fact. Many different pilots have done acro in my plane back in the
70's. Dad used to let just about anyone fly it.
One of our friends only weighed about 135 lbs. He did 10 consecutive loops without
loosing altitude in my plane. A feat that will never be done again, or even
tried as long as I am in charge.
Happy landings,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437482#437482
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
This is all very cool stuff! (to me, anyway).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437483#437483
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Ditto!
Not sure if I mentioned here, but Scott's dad gave me my first piet ride back in
the early 90s. A different plane than this one though.
Thanks Scott, super neat info!
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437484#437484
Message 22
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| Subject: | Landing in the yard. |
Scott L, not so much reason to be jealous about today... It was fifty degrees when
my son asked if I wanted to go flying. It's fifty degrees I says! He stared
at me like a dog watching a tv.
But then methinks, our plane is two minutes away. It's dead calm and great vis.
My son wants to spend some time with me, what am I thinking? Heck ya I wanna
go flying!
We're still not comfortable landing here with pax, so he dropped me off at a friends
house, I came home and grabbed a camera. Awful dark for film, but managed
to get his second landing, he beat me home. It takes a dozen landings or so,
but at some point, landing uphill really isn't all that different.
http://youtu.be/MF1TkalZzr4
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437485#437485
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
I have clipped J-3 wings.....that must mean.....tomorrow I am going out
and......NOT doing any aerobatics....
On Jan 22, 2015 5:32 PM, "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org> wrote:
> Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
>
> Hello Fellow Pieters,
>
> Well Like I said, I have nothing to hide except the fear that you guys may
> want to ban me from the Piet list now. :) Where do I start? How about
> the use of the word Certified? I used the term very loosely when I made my
> last entry. I should better explain. "Aerobatics" are authorized on my
> "Operating Limitations" for "one" person only. It is on the limitations
> the way it is because it was done in 1972. Today it is done through a
> logbook entry. The test pilot today just states that certain maneuvers
> have been demonstrated and are safe to perform. Back in 1972 the maneuvers
> had to be performed in view of the FAA person who issued the "Operating
> Limitations". Mine were so demonstrated. Loops, Rolls, Stalls, Spins,
> Hammerheads etc. All positive G's.
>
> The question about the parachute. I can legally fly and do aerobatics
> without a chute if I am by myself. If I had a passenger, both persons
> would need to wear a chute. Now we all know that there simply is not any
> room in a Piet for a chute. This is true with my plane too, so yes I do
> the aerobatics without one. I quit doing loops about 15 years ago because
> the pull up in the beginning of the loop induced a fare amount of G's to
> get the plane over the top of the loop. So now if I want the feeling of
> the loop I just do a split S. I can do that and keep the plane under 2-G's
> safely. Why load the plane up if I don't need to? Yes the barrel only
> puts a little more than 1-G on the plane.
>
> Okay, so now on to the air-frame differences. I admit that it looks like
> a Piet but under the fabric, it is not. I have a steel tube fuselage. It
> is not the fuse on the Pietenpol drawings. The dimensions are the same as
> the Piet but the structure is not. I have a lot more tubing in mine. I
> also have steel tail feathers. The wing is also different hence the
> bigger ailerons. The wings were actually built to the "REED" Clipped wing
> drawings for the J-3 cub. These are the wings that allow the guys to do
> acro in the cubs. So the wing is a proven acro wing. I only have a 27
> foot wing span, this make the ailerons look huge.
>
> This is only a brief description of the big differences and it will only
> cause more questions, but that is okay with me. Like you guys, I like
> talking about my plane.
>
> So I'm sure some of you are wondering what the G limitations are on my
> plane? Back in the mid 1970's an engineer from General Dynamics did the
> calculations for us. His name was Bud Evans. His name may be familiar to
> so of you old timers. He is the guy that designed the Volksplane one and
> two. He was very well qualified to do the math. Anyway to the point. the
> documents I have from him say the plane is good for 4.2 G's. He even told
> us where it would fail if it did. Yes I do need be nice and handle the
> plane gently. The good part is that the plane is so draggy that it doesn't
> pick up much speed during the descents making it easy to not overload the
> thing.
>
> Attached is a naked pic of the fuse.
>
> Please feel free to ask more questions. I would like you all to
> understand that I am very much in support of the Piet and the community. I
> don't pretend that mine is a Piet, it very much looks like one from 100
> feet. It is supposed to. Piets are cool. I just happen to have one of the
> most different snowflakes from the rest.
>
> Cheers all, More later,
>
> --------
> Scott Liefeld
> Flying N11MS since March 1972
> Steel Tube
> C-85-12
> Wire Wheels
> Brodhead in 1996
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437481#437481
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_117_140.jpg
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Unbelievably cool! Thanks for sharing the info and video.
Keith goff
----- Original Message -----
From: AircamperN11MS <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
Sent: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 22:27:55 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
Hello Fellow Pieters,
Well Like I said, I have nothing to hide except the fear that you guys may want
to ban me from the Piet list now. :) Where do I start? How about the use of
the word Certified? I used the term very loosely when I made my last entry.
I should better explain. "Aerobatics" are authorized on my "Operating Limitations"
for "one" person only. It is on the limitations the way it is because
it was done in 1972. Today it is done through a logbook entry. The test pilot
today just states that certain maneuvers have been demonstrated and are safe
to perform. Back in 1972 the maneuvers had to be performed in view of the FAA
person who issued the "Operating Limitations". Mine were so demonstrated. Loops,
Rolls, Stalls, Spins, Hammerheads etc. All positive G's.
The question about the parachute. I can legally fly and do aerobatics without a
chute if I am by myself. If I had a passenger, both persons would need to wear
a chute. Now we all know that there simply is not any room in a Piet for a
chute. This is true with my plane too, so yes I do the aerobatics without one.
I quit doing loops about 15 years ago because the pull up in the beginning
of the loop induced a fare amount of G's to get the plane over the top of the
loop. So now if I want the feeling of the loop I just do a split S. I can do
that and keep the plane under 2-G's safely. Why load the plane up if I don't
need to? Yes the barrel only puts a little more than 1-G on the plane.
Okay, so now on to the air-frame differences. I admit that it looks like a Piet
but under the fabric, it is not. I have a steel tube fuselage. It is not the
fuse on the Pietenpol drawings. The dimensions are the same as the Piet but
the structure is not. I have a lot more tubing in mine. I also have steel
tail feathers. The wing is also different hence the bigger ailerons. The wings
were actually built to the "REED" Clipped wing drawings for the J-3 cub. These
are the wings that allow the guys to do acro in the cubs. So the wing is
a proven acro wing. I only have a 27 foot wing span, this make the ailerons
look huge.
This is only a brief description of the big differences and it will only cause
more questions, but that is okay with me. Like you guys, I like talking about
my plane.
So I'm sure some of you are wondering what the G limitations are on my plane?
Back in the mid 1970's an engineer from General Dynamics did the calculations
for us. His name was Bud Evans. His name may be familiar to so of you old timers.
He is the guy that designed the Volksplane one and two. He was very well
qualified to do the math. Anyway to the point. the documents I have from him
say the plane is good for 4.2 G's. He even told us where it would fail if
it did. Yes I do need be nice and handle the plane gently. The good part is
that the plane is so draggy that it doesn't pick up much speed during the descents
making it easy to not overload the thing.
Attached is a naked pic of the fuse.
Please feel free to ask more questions. I would like you all to understand that
I am very much in support of the Piet and the community. I don't pretend that
mine is a Piet, it very much looks like one from 100 feet. It is supposed
to. Piets are cool. I just happen to have one of the most different snowflakes
from the rest.
Cheers all, More later,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437481#437481
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/piet_117_140.jpg
Message 25
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|
John,
I am sure the people who wrote those comments are nice guys, but they are also
full of crap. Airplane building is a serious subject, and people who spread old
wives tales and BS are an impediment to learning, progress and safety. We would
be better off if people like that resisted offering bogus advice, but since
this will never happen, I implore builder who's goal is to learn build and fly
to stop taking advice from people who spread myths.
.
If you drive a car with a manual transmission, you use both hands and both feet
for different operations, so the comment about using a tig pedal is ignorant.
You also need to use both feet to fly a Piet or a Hatz, so that guy shouldn't
be building either.
.
If you look at the top photo here : http://flycorvair.net/2014/01/21/risk-management-reference-page/ you will see a picture of Robert Bean, my personal mentor is welding, finest welder I ever met, Worked for the USAF and Johnson Controls at the cape. Finest human being I will likely ever meet in aviation. Killed in a weather related Glassair III crash. I would gladly shave 10 years off my life to add another week to his. Of all the friends I have lost in accidents, loosing Bob is the only one I have not learned to cope with.
.
Bob Bean of closing gaps with a tig welder, when people said the myth you have
to have close fits : "If an grown man can step across it without a running start,
I can weld it shut"
.
I have been tig welding for 20 years, and gas welding for 15 before that. I can
close any gap with a tig welder easier than I can with a gas welder, period.
With tig you can much more effectively throttle the heat, and not melt the edge
away. When trying to do this with gas, amateurs are always pulling the torch
away, and exposing the red hot metal to ambient air, allowing it to oxidize and
murdering its potential strength. With tig the post fly keeps the weld bathed
even if the weld stops.
.
The comments on heat affected zone are BS also, as well as the comments about needing
to normalize tig welds. All of this has been disproven with extensive industry
testing. Real welders working on aerobatic planes use specific rod and
techniques that need no heat treatment. Go to the SPA panther website and look
that they have made about 30 very complex aerobatic fuselages this year. Their
primary to welders are Vern (from my last post) and Travis. Dan Weseman is
a very good welder himself, and he extensively researched the finest details of
the welds for his design. It is all done with Lincoln 225's with micro start
ER-60 rod and no post weld heating.
.
The very concept of gas welding being 'forgiving' is a joke. I have seen more screwed
up gas welds on homebuilts than tig. I have heard every stupid comment
like "These welds are like a gorilla, ugly but strong." If it looks poor, it is,
period. Gas welding is the subject I taught at Riddle. The A&P students in
1992-95 were required to spend 120 hours in the lab with a torch in their hand.
They got pretty good, but the average age was 20, the eyesight was good, and
the concentration was good. The problem with gas welding today is the same as
tailwheels, the lack of good first hand instruction available. The EAA workshops
were taught by Earl Luce, who is good, but 3 days isn't anything but an introduction.
.
A Positive Idea: Go to Oshkosh, and politely spend several days with instructors
there, they are very good. My Booth is 616 every year, and for the last 18 years
I have given Corvair forums right next to the welders. I park in lot W right
behind them. Every day on the way out I spend a bit of time with the Lincoln
staff. First class people there to share a skill. Yet 50% of the people in
the 100 seats are stupidly and rudely staring at their smart phones while these
guys teach. Lincoln provides an excellent base group of literature in a convenient
red bag....at the end of the demonstration, the people who yammered on
their smart phones often wander off like distracted cows leaving the bag where
ever it fell off their laps, to wander off and shove a brat into their faces.
The instructors are to nice to say much, but if anyone shows up who genuinely
wants to LEARN, they will bend over backwards to help that guy. Suggestion: just
show up and learn, and don't repeat old wives tails about required close fits,
just learn.-ww.
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Funny Marcus
Worth mentioning, the 4.2 G limit is at gross weight, 1175 lbs. I typically weigh
950 lbs when I goof off. Extra safety factor there.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Wow, Scott!
You say that you typically weigh 950 pounds, and you can still get into a Pietenpol.
Amazing. imagine how the plane would perform if you were of average weight.
:)
BC
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
I told you that Scott's not your normal Piet pilot...
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 6:53 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
--> <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Wow, Scott!
You say that you typically weigh 950 pounds, and you can still get into a
Pietenpol. Amazing. imagine how the plane would perform if you were of
average weight. :)
BC
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
That's so true Gary! He is a darn nice guy and someone who will offer a
ride to any builder/flyer/prospective builder/interested party. You should
all come the West Coast Pietenpol Fly-in and meet him and see his plane.
Chris
Sacramento, CA
WestcoastPiet.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
--> <gboothe5@comcast.net>
I told you that Scott's not your normal Piet pilot...
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 6:53 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
--> <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Wow, Scott!
You say that you typically weigh 950 pounds, and you can still get into a
Pietenpol. Amazing. imagine how the plane would perform if you were of
average weight. :)
BC
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
I agree with Chris! Come to the West Coast Pietenpol Fly In this June. Meet
fabulous Pietenpol personalities such as Scott Liefeld, Chris Tracy, Gary Booth
and many more! Frazier Lake Airpark 1C9 June 6-7 2015.
Mike Groah
414MV
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 22, 2015, at 7:21 PM, "CatDesigns" <CatDesigns@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> That's so true Gary! He is a darn nice guy and someone who will offer a
> ride to any builder/flyer/prospective builder/interested party. You should
> all come the West Coast Pietenpol Fly-in and meet him and see his plane.
>
>
> Chris
> Sacramento, CA
> WestcoastPiet.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 7:00 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
>
> --> <gboothe5@comcast.net>
>
> I told you that Scott's not your normal Piet pilot...
>
> Gary Boothe
> NX308MB
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 6:53 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics
>
> --> <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>
> Wow, Scott!
> You say that you typically weigh 950 pounds, and you can still get into a
> Pietenpol. Amazing. imagine how the plane would perform if you were of
> average weight. :)
>
> BC
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=437500#437500
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol Aerobatics |
Scott,
What is your empty weight? Just curious.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair College 32 - San Marcos Texas |
Builders,
We are now in the last 24 hours to sign up for Corvair College #32 with local hosts
Kevin and Shelley in Texas. The link is on Shelley's original post above.
.
You do not need an engine, nor a manual, or even a project in your shop to attend. Every college has a number of people who are on a recon run, to get a look at it for themselves. If you would like to see a 7 minute film made about the Colleges by the EAA staff, look at this http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/06/new-eaa-video-on-corvair-college27-barnwell-2013/
.
If you are new to homebuilding and have yet to find the practical support from fellow builders that everyone needs to make progress on their project, consider heading to the college, many builders on this list will tell you that they found their home in homebuilding with Corvair builders because of the ethic of the movement where the successful builders return to the colleges to directly assist the next wave of builders. If you want to make 2015 your year in aviation CC#32 is a great place to start. You can look at this link to last years Texas college and see many Piet builders making progress http://flycorvair.net/2014/03/13/corvair-college-28-san-marcos-texas/
Today is the last day to put yourself in this years photo.
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