Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:19 AM - VNE at cruise (Douwe Blumberg)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: VNE at cruise (Boatright, Jeffrey)
3. 08:02 AM - Re: VNE at cruise (Jack Philips)
4. 08:10 AM - Re: VNE at cruise (Jack Philips)
5. 08:28 AM - Re: VNE at cruise (Andre B. Charvet)
6. 10:11 AM - Re: VNE at cruise (Barry Davis)
7. 11:54 AM - Re: VNE at cruise (AircamperN11MS)
8. 11:59 AM - Re: VNE at cruise (Mike McGowan)
9. 12:03 PM - Re: VNE at cruise (Jeff Boatright)
10. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: VNE at cruise (Jack Philips)
11. 12:30 PM - Re: VNE at cruise (Ray Krause)
12. 01:11 PM - Re: VNE at cruise (Steven Dortch)
13. 01:37 PM - cruise speeds vs. engine choices (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
14. 05:55 PM - Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear (Charles Burkholder)
15. 07:13 PM - Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear (Boatright, Jeffrey)
16. 08:42 PM - Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear (glenschweizer@yahoo.com)
17. 08:55 PM - Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear (Gary Boothe)
Message 1
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About the only way I can imagine my Piet exceeding VNE at cruise is with a
JATO pack strapped between the wheels!
In all seriousness, I think aerodynamic mods are fine if they don't add
weight and you find it an enjoyable pursuit. After all, fun is why we build
these things. However, don't expect too much from them and I've often
wondered if the extra effort and time added building, is worth an extra 3
kts cruising speed. I mean, when I'm chugging around for my average 30
minute summer flight, I couldn't care less how fast I'm going. The ONLY
time I ever wish I had a few extra kts of speed is going to Brodhead, but
even then it would only shave off ten-fifteen minutes or so.
That being said..
I did spend an extra month fairing the axle and covering the wire wheels. I
have NO idea how much it helped having not flown without those mods. The
biggest thing I could do to improve my cruise speed would be to fair or
reshape my wood struts which have a poor aerodynamic shape, but again, I've
weighed the effort against the benefit and decided I'd rather spend the time
flying her. I also experimented with some teardrop shaped clear plastic
tubing to fair the round cables. I did my landing gear cables, then decided
against doing the flying wires because it would destroy the vintage look.
But I do think round wires make a ton of drag which could be at least halved
by sleeving them.
I think biggest drag inducers that could actually be helped are: struts,
wheels, strut connections, axle, windscreens, foot pegs, cables.
$.02
Douwe
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
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Message 3
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Yet another email from Jeff Boatright with no content. Am I the only
one who gets these?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
(where it was a balmy 8=C2=B0 this morning)
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Boatright, Jeffrey
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
Message 4
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Douwe,
Of everything listed below, probably the biggest contributor to total drag
on a Pietenpol is the array of cables hanging out in the breeze. A round
cable being pushed through the air has a rather large drag coefficient.
Streamlined flying wires for the inter-lift strut wires, the bracing wires
on the tail, the roll wires between the cabanes and the bracing wires on the
undercarriage (if using a straight axle) would help a good deal, but would
also increase the cost of building a Pietenpol by about 50%. And nothing
can be done about the elevator cables, rudder cables, tailwheel steering
cables (if so equipped) and aileron cables that all hang out in the breeze.
If you want something fast, build an RV or a Sonex. If you want low 'n'
slow, build a Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Douwe
Blumberg
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:19 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
About the only way I can imagine my Piet exceeding VNE at cruise is with a
JATO pack strapped between the wheels!
In all seriousness, I think aerodynamic mods are fine if they don't add
weight and you find it an enjoyable pursuit. After all, fun is why we build
these things. However, don't expect too much from them and I've often
wondered if the extra effort and time added building, is worth an extra 3
kts cruising speed. I mean, when I'm chugging around for my average 30
minute summer flight, I couldn't care less how fast I'm going. The ONLY
time I ever wish I had a few extra kts of speed is going to Brodhead, but
even then it would only shave off ten-fifteen minutes or so.
That being said..
I did spend an extra month fairing the axle and covering the wire wheels. I
have NO idea how much it helped having not flown without those mods. The
biggest thing I could do to improve my cruise speed would be to fair or
reshape my wood struts which have a poor aerodynamic shape, but again, I've
weighed the effort against the benefit and decided I'd rather spend the time
flying her. I also experimented with some teardrop shaped clear plastic
tubing to fair the round cables. I did my landing gear cables, then decided
against doing the flying wires because it would destroy the vintage look.
But I do think round wires make a ton of drag which could be at least halved
by sleeving them.
I think biggest drag inducers that could actually be helped are: struts,
wheels, strut connections, axle, windscreens, foot pegs, cables.
$.02
Douwe
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
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Message 6
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I think Jeff is using invisible ink. I=99m have been getting blank
ones from him for a while now. Thought I was the only one.
Barry
NX973BP
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Boatright, Jeffrey
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
I see Jeff's just fine. But I am on a PC right now. Wonder if that matters?
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438509#438509
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
Does covering the spokes on wire wheels make any difference in directional
control or stability?
Mike McGowan
From: Barry Davis
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:11 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
I think Jeff is using invisible ink. I=99m have been getting blank on
es from him for a while now. Thought I was the only one.
Barry
NX973BP
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Boatright, Jeffrey
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
---
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http://www.avast.com
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
Several people apparently get blank posts from me. I think this happens sometimes
when I reply directly to a matronics post by email. I am sending this message
instead by going to the matronics webpage a replying via the form.
My reply isn't earth-shattering. It was:
Switching from canvas-covered bungees to springs definitely changed how my Piet
behaves when I throttle back for descent in the pattern. With the bungees, the
nose really dropped when I pulled the throttle to idle. This effect is much
less pronounced after we switched to springs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438511#438511
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
So am I.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AircamperN11MS
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 2:54 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: VNE at cruise
--> <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
I see Jeff's just fine. But I am on a PC right now. Wonder if that
matters?
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438509#438509
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
To those with "covered wheels", how are they covered? With fabric or aluminu
m discs? If fabric, does it just go around the bead of the rim and cement it
in place? What happens when you have to repair a tire, just recover. Bassl
e has aluminum discs for about $300, covering would be a lot cheaper!
Thanks,
Ray Krause
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Mike McGowan <shadetree@socket.net> wrote:
>
> Does covering the spokes on wire wheels make any difference in directional
control or stability?
>
> Mike McGowan
>
> From: Barry Davis
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:11 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
>
> I think Jeff is using invisible ink. I=99m have been getting blank o
nes from him for a while now. Thought I was the only one.
> Barry
> NX973BP
>
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Boatright, Jeffrey
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:32 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
>
>
>
>
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> ics.com
> .matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
>
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>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise |
Per my aerodynamacist, these vintage videos are an excellent source for
information on drag. The professor's lecture voice is a killer, but he
talks the talk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acySDnGYzVM&index=16&list=PL0EC6527BE
871ABA3
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Ray Krause <raykrause@frontiernet.net>
wrote:
> To those with "covered wheels", how are they covered? With fabric or
> aluminum discs? If fabric, does it just go around the bead of the rim and
> cement it in place? What happens when you have to repair a tire, just
> recover. Bassle has aluminum discs for about $300, covering would be a l
ot
> cheaper!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Krause
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Mike McGowan <shadetree@socket.net> wrote:
>
> Does covering the spokes on wire wheels make any difference in
> directional control or stability?
>
> Mike McGowan
>
> *From:* Barry Davis <bed@mindspring.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:11 PM
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
>
>
> I think Jeff is using invisible ink. I=99m have been getting blank
ones from
> him for a while now. Thought I was the only one.
>
> Barry
>
> NX973BP
>
>
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com>] *On Behalf Of *Boatright,
> Jeffrey
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:32 AM
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
>
>
> *
>
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
> ics.com <http://ics.com>
> .matronics.com/contribution <http://matronics.com/contribution>
>
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------
> <http://www.avast.com/>
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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> *
>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
> npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
> //forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D
> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/cont
ribution>
> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=3D
>
> *
>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
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Subject: | cruise speeds vs. engine choices |
Although I didn't consult with an aerodynamicist or look up any Vne speeds
or drag coefficients, I have
learned, thru my experience in flying Pietnepols that you're more likely to
get passed up more quickly at
cruise speeds by Canadian geese if flying a Ford powered Piet vs. a Contine
ntal or Corvair powered Piet.
Mike C.
Ohio
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear |
Regarding bungee or spring landing gear. I am half done my split axle
landing gear but not at quite the shock absorbers. I am leaning towards
using steel spring due to the low maintenance "build, fly and forget" it
offers. I was talking to a very experienced tailwheel pilot and
instructor (not a homebuilder) about it and he recommended bungees.
Could I have any input on the pro's and con's of each? How many of you
builders have made the switch after your piet was built and why? If
anything it might add 1 knot to the cruise speed!
On 2/19/2015 9:31 AM, Boatright, Jeffrey wrote:
> Switching from canvas-covered bungees to springs definitely changed
> how my Piet behaves when I throttle back for descent in the pattern.
> With the bungees, the nose really dropped when I pulled the throttle
> to idle. This effect is much less pronounced after we switched to springs.
>
> --
> Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO
> Professor of Ophthalmology
> Emory University School of Medicine
>
> From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net
> <mailto:douweblumberg@earthlink.net>>
> <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>>
> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 9:19 AM
> To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
>
> About the only way I can imagine my Piet exceeding VNE at cruise
> is with a JATO pack strapped between the wheels!
>
> In all seriousness, I think aerodynamic mods are fine if they
> dont add weight and you find it an enjoyable pursuit. After all,
> fun is why we build these things. However, dont expect too much
> from them and Ive often wondered if the extra effort and time
> added building, is worth an extra 3 kts cruising speed. I mean,
> when Im chugging around for my average 30 minute summer flight, I
> couldnt care less how fast Im going. The ONLY time I ever wish
> I had a few extra kts of speed is going to Brodhead, but even then
> it would only shave off ten-fifteen minutes or so.
>
> That being said.
>
> I did spend an extra month fairing the axle and covering the wire
> wheels. I have NO idea how much it helped having not flown
> without those mods. The biggest thing I could do to improve my
> cruise speed would be to fair or reshape my wood struts which have
> a poor aerodynamic shape, but again, Ive weighed the effort
> against the benefit and decided Id rather spend the time flying
> her. I also experimented with some teardrop shaped clear plastic
> tubing to fair the round cables. I did my landing gear cables,
> then decided against doing the flying wires because it would
> destroy the vintage look. But I do think round wires make a ton
> of drag which could be at least halved by sleeving them.
>
> I think biggest drag inducers that could actually be helped are:
> struts, wheels, strut connections, axle, windscreens, foot pegs,
> cables.
>
> $.02
>
> Douwe
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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> ky"Z+M4Gq(wrzKDKj',.+-
> 5h,z^.+-
Tn+bp+ry'C { ,x(ZP> -Zvkkj+ykym-&j',r5hRm-&j',r5hR08IaT1$+y\{^j)ZnWayg+k&j',r+k&j',rh*'gJ+^N*.~zw,h
jY^.+-kym-&j',rr&*'i0fr((nb{nrf
--
Charles Burkholder
Visit my blog @ http://missionmechfund.blogspot.ca/
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear |
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Subject: | Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear |
Hi Jeffrey
Do you have any particulars on the springs you used? Source would be hel
pful too.
Thanks, Glen
Aerial in progress
(Fuse becomes a box this week end!)
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 19, 2015, at 7:12 PM, "Boatright, Jeffrey" <jeffboatright@emory.edu
> wrote:
>
> Had bungees. Bungees didn't pass inspection one year. Converted to springs
(they were free to me). No maintenance. No difference in landing performanc
e that I can tell.
>
> =C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3
=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2
=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC
=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC
=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3
=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2
=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC
=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC
=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D=C3=A2=82=AC=9D
> Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO
> Professor of Ophthalmology
> Emory University School of Medicine
> Sent from an iPad with a spelling problem
>
> On Feb 19, 2015, at 8:59 PM, "Charles Burkholder" <born2fly@abcmailbox.net
> wrote:
>
>> Regarding bungee or spring landing gear. I am half done my split axle lan
ding gear but not at quite the shock absorbers. I am leaning towards using s
teel spring due to the low maintenance "build, fly and forget" it offers. I w
as talking to a very experienced tailwheel pilot and instructor (not a homeb
uilder) about it and he recommended bungees.
>> Could I have any input on the pro's and con's of each? How many of you bu
ilders have made the switch after your piet was built and why? If anything i
t might add 1 knot to the cruise speed!
>>> On 2/19/2015 9:31 AM, Boatright, Jeffrey wrote:
>>> Switching from canvas-covered bungees to springs definitely changed how m
y Piet behaves when I throttle back for descent in the pattern. With the bun
gees, the nose really dropped when I pulled the throttle to idle. This effec
t is much less pronounced after we switched to springs.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD, FARVO
>>> Professor of Ophthalmology
>>> Emory University School of Medicine
>>>
>>> From: Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
>>> Date: Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 9:19 AM
>>> To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: VNE at cruise
>>>
>>> About the only way I can imagine my Piet exceeding VNE at cruise is with
a JATO pack strapped between the wheels!
>>>
>>> In all seriousness, I think aerodynamic mods are fine if they don=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2t add weight and you find it an enjoyable pursuit. After all
, fun is why we build these things. However, don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t e
xpect too much from them and I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve often wondered if t
he extra effort and time added building, is worth an extra 3 kts cruising sp
eed. I mean, when I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m chugging around for my average
30 minute summer flight, I couldn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t care less how fa
st I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m going. The ONLY time I ever wish I had a few e
xtra kts of speed is going to Brodhead, but even then it would only shave of
f ten-fifteen minutes or so.
>>>
>>> That being said=C3=A2=82=AC=C2.
>>>
>>> I did spend an extra month fairing the axle and covering the wire wheels
. I have NO idea how much it helped having not flown without those mods. T
he biggest thing I could do to improve my cruise speed would be to fair or r
eshape my wood struts which have a poor aerodynamic shape, but again, I=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2ve weighed the effort against the benefit and decided I=C3
=A2=82=AC=84=A2d rather spend the time flying her. I also experimente
d with some teardrop shaped clear plastic tubing to fair the round cables. I
did my landing gear cables, then decided against doing the flying wires bec
ause it would destroy the vintage look. But I do think round wires make a t
on of drag which could be at least halved by sleeving them.
>>>
>>> I think biggest drag inducers that could actually be helped are: struts,
wheels, strut connections, axle, windscreens, foot pegs, cables.
>>>
>>> $.02
>>>
>>> Douwe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the
>>> original message (including attachments).
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>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> 02/19/15
>>>
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>>
>> --
>> Charles Burkholder
>> Visit my blog @ http://missionmechfund.blogspot.ca/
>>
>>
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Message 17
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