---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/22/15: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:48 AM - Re: New member and a few questions already (Jack Philips) 2. 09:34 AM - Re: New member and a few questions already (Steven Dortch) 3. 09:42 AM - Re: Pietenpol Rib Building [Video] (taildrags) 4. 11:36 AM - Re: Pietenpol Rib Building [Video] (Michael Groah) 5. 02:49 PM - Re: New member and a few questions already (Andy Garrett) 6. 03:08 PM - Re: New member and a few questions already (Jeff Boatright) 7. 03:47 PM - Re: New member and a few questions already (CatDesigns) 8. 10:53 PM - Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear (biplan53) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:59 AM PST US From: "Jack Philips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New member and a few questions already Hi Andy, Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols, and Pietenpeople! First a couple of boilerplate items for new builders: 1. Are you a member of EAA? If not, I would recommend joining, particularly if there is a good local chapter near you. EAA has had its problems lately, but it still is the only organization actively promoting your right to build and fly your own airplane, and as such it deserves your support. If your local chapter has a Tech Counselor, that can be an enormous help for you in building your own airplane. 2. Buy and READ the four books by Tony Bingelis (available through EAA): The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane Construction Techniques, Firewall Forward, and Tony Bingelis on Engines. There is a wealth of information in those books and many of your questions about how to do some of the tasks required to build a Pietenpol will be answered. 3. Since you will almost certainly be maintaining your own airplane I strongly recommend a book called "Sky Ranch Engineering Manual", by John Schwaner. It was recommended to me by William Wynne and I bought a copy on Amazon and love it! It is a Bible on how to inspect and repair everything in your engine. 4. Join the Brodhead Pietenpol Association (BPA). Its newsletter generally contains good building tips and other articles on all things Pietenpol. Now to answer some of your questions: Second: I would like to entertain the possibility of a wider fuselage--just a few inches. To simplify this mod, I would like to widen the center section of the three-piece wing by an equal amount (I saw a widened center section on the 'West Coast Pietenpol' website). This might also allow for a slightly larger wing tank which appeals to me. I want long-legged cross country capability in this craft. I would caution against this for a couple of reasons. First, I did this on mine before trying sitting in "standard width" fuselages. I'm 6'2" and 195 lbs and I find I fit just fine in a standard sized fuselage. Mine is 1" wider and yes, it does have more room, but not enough to be really noticeable. The reason I recommend against it is that a change like that ripples through the entire design. I'm a design engineer and I was able to anticipate and think through all the changes required by my decision to widen the fuselage, but it was still troublesome. It was also EXPENSIVE because the standard design very efficiently utilizes a standard sheet of plywood. Making the fuselage wider suddenly requires using more than half a sheet of plywood for the floorboard and you end up buying and wasting a lot more material. I would recommend that before you commit to such a change, you should go to Brodhead this summer and sit in as many varieties of Pietenpols as you can find (after asking permission, of course) and see if you can fit in them. I also made my centersection 6" wider to allow more fuel to be carried. I have an A65 Continental engine in mine that burns 4-1/2 gallons per hour. My tank holds 16 gallons of fuel, giving me almost 3 hours of endurance, with a 45 minute reserve. I can tell you after 10 years of flying mine on some pretty long cross countries that I have never flown it for 3 hours at one stretch. I start getting restless and need to get out and stretch my legs after about 90 minutes, and after 2 hours I've GOT to get out and rest. Having extra fuel when you need it is a good thing, I agree. In 2013 I flew it to Brodhead along with Gene Rambo in his 1927 Travel Air and Matt Paxton in his Pietenpol. We landed at Greene County, Pennsylvania for fuel, but found that a truck had hit a utility pole, knocking out their power. They had plenty of gas but no way to pump it. We had to fly on to the next airport west of us in Moundsville, WV before we could refuel. That day I was glad to have plenty of fuel on board, but if you plan your legs with enough reserve to get to the next airport, you won't need a bigger centersection. Third: CG questions plague my mind with such a setup. Do I leave the rear seat where it is and make cabane angle adjustments? Should I make longer cabane struts to allow for this and to keep the pilot access flap out of my face? Here again I would recommend against changing the plans. Keep the seat where it is and plan to shift the wing aft for CG control. This is what most builders do and it works well. Most also do make the cabane struts longer to ease entry and egress. Forth: At my weight, do I target the 120HP Corvair for best climb performance or is this excessive for the mount/firewall? Read William Wynne's manual when you get it and make your decision based on his recommendations. If you are going to use a Corvair, use the parts and methods he recommends. Or use a certified aircraft engine like an A65, a C-85 or O-200 Continental. As I said, I have an A65 Continental in mine and I wish I had an extra 20 horsepower, but my Pietenpol is heavy at 745 lbs, and I fly in the mountains. For flying in Kansas or anywhere else in the Midwest, I think 65 hp would be plenty. While on that subject I recommend keeping it as light as possible. The best flying Pietenpol I ever flew was John Hofmann's N502R. It is very light and built very close to the plans. Mike Cuy's also flies better than mine because it is 113 lbs lighter than mine. I made a number of choices that increased the weight of mine (such as widening the fuselage, which required more wood, more fabric and more paint) that I wish I had not done. Finally: I want to keep usable load as high as possible, so I am leaning toward a built-up 'I' beam type spar as there is a considerable amount of information on this type available for homebuilts in general. Does anyone herein have experience with this method? I know I do not care for the idea of routing spars. I have yet to decide on gear type, but I'm leaning toward whatever is lightest with tall thin wheels. There are a number of Pietenpols flying with built up I Beam spars, including Mike Cuy's. I routed my spars and don't know why you wouldn't want to use that method, but to each his own. As for gear type, I can say that the lightest gear is the so-called "Cub Type" gear (that preceded the Piper Cub by at least 4 years). The heaviest is the straight axle gear with wire wheels, such as I have on mine. My wheels (complete with tires, tubes and brakes) weigh 25 lbs apiece. Using 6.00 x 6 wheels should cut that in half. You have good questions and it's obvious you are doing a lot of thinking about your project. Keep it up and continue to gather as much knowledge and data as you can. You'll find this to be one of the most rewarding experiences of your whole life. Good Luck! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New member and a few questions already From: Steven Dortch Andy, welcome to the fold. What follows is just my opinion, I am one of the lesser experienced Piet guys. 1. No front pax. I would suggest just building to plans, and then put light temporary structure in to carry baggage. Then dont put in the front controls, seatbelt, instruments or a wind screen. then put a cover on it. Then If you want to later you can add a windscreen and a seatbelt. permanent structure will not allow for flexibility later. 2. Try one on before you go with widening the fuselage. Mine is to plans and I am not the most svelt pilot (5'8" and 200 LBS). The cockpit is pretty wide. Getting in and out is where your size will get in the way the most. making the plane longer has been done and I think plans are out there. You might look at building the instrument panel forward as much as possible. (not changing the plans.) I find the rear cockpit to be small from front to rear, IE the instruments are "in my face." I would like them back some. Also you can widen the holes where your feet go and scoot the pedals forward some. For additional range, instead of widening the wing tank, Consider a "header" type tank like a J3 cub. My plane has both and has more than enough fuel. 3. Cabane lengthening sounds good and has been done, But that is outside my experience. My plane does not have the flop, that is another way to "get it out of your face" just have a cutout. Cabanes can also be adjusted to help with CG. 4. Put in the engine you want. I have an A65 but If I were to start from scratch I would go with a corvair. 5. On keeping useable load as high as possible, Stick with the plans. Almost all mods add to the weight. There are experts on this list about the spars and such. 6. Gear type. Use the wheels you want, I would go with springs instead of bungees. I have bungees and will convert when the bungees wear out. Welcome to the list. Blue Skies, Steve D On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Jack Philips wrote: > Hi Andy, > > > Welcome to the wonderful world of Pietenpols, and Pietenpeople! > > > First a couple of boilerplate items for new builders: > > > 1. Are you a member of EAA? If not, I would recommend joining, > particularly if there is a good local chapter near you. EAA has had its > problems lately, but it still is the only organization actively promoting > your right to build and fly your own airplane, and as such it deserves yo ur > support. If your local chapter has a Tech Counselor, that can be an > enormous help for you in building your own airplane. > > > 2. Buy and READ the four books by Tony Bingelis (available through EAA): > The Sportplane Builder, Sportplane Construction Techniques, Firewall > Forward, and Tony Bingelis on Engines. There is a wealth of information in > those books and many of your questions about how to do some of the tasks > required to build a Pietenpol will be answered. > > > 3. Since you will almost certainly be maintaining your own airplane I > strongly recommend a book called "Sky Ranch Engineering Manual", by John > Schwaner. It was recommended to me by William Wynne and I bought a copy on > Amazon and love it! It is a Bible on how to inspect and repair everythin g > in your engine. > > > 4. Join the Brodhead Pietenpol Association (BPA). Its newsletter > generally contains good building tips and other articles on all things > Pietenpol. > > > Now to answer some of your questions: > > > Second: I would like to entertain the possibility of a wider > fuselage--just a few inches. To simplify this mod, I would like to widen > the center section of the three-piece wing by an equal amount (I saw a > widened center section on the 'West Coast Pietenpol' website). This might > also allow for a slightly larger wing tank which appeals to me. I want > long-legged cross country capability in this craft. > > > I would caution against this for a couple of reasons. First, I did this > on mine before trying sitting in =9Cstandard width=9D fuselag es. I=99m 6=992=9D and > 195 lbs and I find I fit just fine in a standard sized fuselage. Mine is > 1=9D wider and yes, it does have more room, but not enough to be re ally > noticeable. The reason I recommend against it is that a change like that > ripples through the entire design. I=99m a design engineer and I w as able to > anticipate and think through all the changes required by my decision to > widen the fuselage, but it was still troublesome. It was also EXPENSIVE > because the standard design very efficiently utilizes a standard sheet of > plywood. Making the fuselage wider suddenly requires using more than hal f > a sheet of plywood for the floorboard and you end up buying and wasting a > lot more material. I would recommend that before you commit to such a > change, you should go to Brodhead this summer and sit in as many varietie s > of Pietenpols as you can find (after asking permission, of course) and se e > if you can fit in them. > > > I also made my centersection 6=9D wider to allow more fuel to be ca rried. I > have an A65 Continental engine in mine that burns 4-1/2 gallons per hour. > My tank holds 16 gallons of fuel, giving me almost 3 hours of endurance, > with a 45 minute reserve. I can tell you after 10 years of flying mine o n > some pretty long cross countries that I have never flown it for 3 hours a t > one stretch. I start getting restless and need to get out and stretch my > legs after about 90 minutes, and after 2 hours I=99ve GOT to get ou t and > rest. Having extra fuel when you need it is a good thing, I agree. In > 2013 I flew it to Brodhead along with Gene Rambo in his 1927 Travel Air a nd > Matt Paxton in his Pietenpol. We landed at Greene County, Pennsylvania f or > fuel, but found that a truck had hit a utility pole, knocking out their > power. They had plenty of gas but no way to pump it. We had to fly on t o > the next airport west of us in Moundsville, WV before we could refuel. > That day I was glad to have plenty of fuel on board, but if you plan your > legs with enough reserve to get to the next airport, you won=99t ne ed a > bigger centersection. > > > Third: CG questions plague my mind with such a setup. Do I leave the rear > seat where it is and make cabane angle adjustments? Should I make longer > cabane struts to allow for this and to keep the pilot access flap out of my > face? > > > Here again I would recommend against changing the plans. Keep the seat > where it is and plan to shift the wing aft for CG control. This is what > most builders do and it works well. Most also do make the cabane struts > longer to ease entry and egress. > > > Forth: At my weight, do I target the 120HP Corvair for best climb > performance or is this excessive for the mount/firewall? > > > Read William Wynne=99s manual when you get it and make your decisio n based > on his recommendations. If you are going to use a Corvair, use the parts > and methods he recommends. Or use a certified aircraft engine like an A6 5, > a C-85 or O-200 Continental. As I said, I have an A65 Continental in mi ne > and I wish I had an extra 20 horsepower, but my Pietenpol is heavy at 745 > lbs, and I fly in the mountains. For flying in Kansas or anywhere else i n > the Midwest, I think 65 hp would be plenty. > > > While on that subject I recommend keeping it as light as possible. The > best flying Pietenpol I ever flew was John Hofmann=99s N502R. It i s very > light and built very close to the plans. Mike Cuy=99s also flies b etter than > mine because it is 113 lbs lighter than mine. I made a number of choices > that increased the weight of mine (such as widening the fuselage, which > required more wood, more fabric and more paint) that I wish I had not don e. > > > Finally: I want to keep usable load as high as possible, so I am leaning > toward a built-up 'I' beam type spar as there is a considerable amount of > information on this type available for homebuilts in general. Does anyone > herein have experience with this method? I know I do not care for the ide a > of routing spars. > > > I have yet to decide on gear type, but I'm leaning toward whatever is > lightest with tall thin wheels. > > > There are a number of Pietenpols flying with built up I Beam spars, > including Mike Cuy=99s. I routed my spars and don=99t know w hy you wouldn=99t > want to use that method, but to each his own. As for gear type, I can sa y > that the lightest gear is the so-called =9CCub Type=9D gear ( that preceded the > Piper Cub by at least 4 years). The heaviest is the straight axle gear > with wire wheels, such as I have on mine. My wheels (complete with tires , > tubes and brakes) weigh 25 lbs apiece. Using 6.00 x 6 wheels should cut > that in half. > > > You have good questions and it=99s obvious you are doing a lot of t hinking > about your project. Keep it up and continue to gather as much knowledge > and data as you can. You=99ll find this to be one of the most rewa rding > experiences of your whole life. > > > Good Luck! > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > > * > =========== .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol Rib Building [Video] From: "taildrags" There is a very useful detail in this video that will be missed by the new builder who doesn't notice it as it goes by so fast. As the individual vertical and diagonal sticks are placed in the jig, notice the sections of dowel that slip over pins (headless nails) on the jig board. These are used to hold those pieces in place as the glue cures. It is not immediately obvious, but the holes in the dowels can be drilled slightly off-center so that they can be rotated and the camming action snugs the sticks into place. Very nice preparation and methodology! -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438583#438583 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:36:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Rib Building [Video] From: Michael Groah Looks great! Keep up the nice work. It will be a beautiful plane I'm sure. I missed out on coming up to Ray's place but maybe I'll get the chance to meet you at the West Coast Pietenpol gathering. Mike Groah Sent from my iPad > On Feb 21, 2015, at 10:19 AM, "Riegerb" wrote: > > > A sped-up time-lapse video of my dad building a rib for the Pietenpol. Now do it 32x fast! =) > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI59zR2rIsI&feature=youtu.be > > > Brian > > -------- > riegerpietenpol.tumblr.com > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438555#438555 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member and a few questions already From: "Andy Garrett" Thank you so much for the well considered responses! I'm very happy I signed up here! For the record, I am an EAA member both nationally and a new member of the local chapter, #88. I also sent in my application and check to the BPA. I have a friend and former hangar mate who assisted me with my Airbike purchase and learning who is active in Chapter 88 and just exceeded 1000hrs in the Airbike he finished in 1997. I am led to believe that he has more hours in that airframe than any pilot alive, but I could be wrong. In any case, he is a wealth of building knowledge to tap when needed. I will acquire the recommended books immediately. I just finished the Piet manual for the first read through. I anticipate many more. I guess I need to find a Piet within driving distance and try it on for size before further considering mods in the cockpit size. Thanks again for the great food for thought. More questions pop up every day, but I will try to keep them coming at a reasonable rate. [Wink] -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438588#438588 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member and a few questions already From: "Jeff Boatright" Hi Andy, I echo what Jack said. Sit in an Aircamper- sit in several!, make sure you really need make the changes you're pondering. My Piet has been flown by some pretty big guys (I think the biggest topped 6'3" and 230 lbs). No problem with width or with pedal placement. Taller cabanes help. Move the wing to get the CG right. Use a flop or a cutout. I had bungees, now have springs in compression; like 'em better. I have a 12 gallon wing tank and an 11 gallon "header" tank. Hardly ever use the wing tank. I had an A-65, now have a C-85. I think it's the ideal engine for the Piet, but YMMV. If you go Corvair, follow the advice of The Corvair Authority, Wm. Wynne, but buy your parts from him as soon as you can or they'll never arrive in time for the next College (and you will really have fun at the College - I did!). HTH, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438591#438591 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:32 PM PST US From: "CatDesigns" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New member and a few questions already Andy The advice to find a Pietenpol to sit in is correct however make note of what the fuselage length is, long vs short, and any modifications made to the seating area. When I purchased my hinges from Vi Kapler, I asked him about modifications he would recommend for tall people. If you don't know Mr. Kapler used to know and work for Mr. Pietenpol and sadly passed away recently. This is what he wrote to me "I am 6'-4" and weigh 200 pounds. If you use the long fuselage plans and cut out the knee holes a little bigger and raise the wing 2" from what the plans show you will have enough room. Also you can lean the back rest on the seat back 2 inches on the top"." You will also need to move the wing back 3 1/2 inches or more depending on your weight and what engine you use." I have made all these changes to my plane with the addition of lowering the seat as much as I could and still have room for the cables under the seat. I am 6'-1" and I fit fine with these changes. Bill Rewey and others have made a 3' center section. Bill used to sell a package of Pietenpol suggestions, of which the center section is one. I wouldn't widen the fuselage. You could gain a few inches by starting the taper behind the back seat instead of at the back of the front seat. I seem to recall someone doing this. Built up spars have been used. Mike Cuy is one, http://westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/images/Pietspar.jpg I have also seen some with plywood webs but I don't know if they are flying. You can also use 3/4" non-routed spars. The split axel gear on the Improved Air Camper plans will be the lightest. Chris Sacramento, CA WestcoastPiet.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Garrett Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2015 2:01 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New member and a few questions already --> Hi there, I'm Andy Garrett from Haysville, KS (suburb of Wichita). I recently sold my TEAM Airbike which I owned for a year, but did not build. At 6'2" and 255lbs, the little Rotax 447 was just not enough to get acceptable performance. I am now in possession of a new set of Pietenpol Air Camper plans with all the options, manual, the works. I also have Chet Peek's book The Pietenpol Story, and have poured over the Pietenpol website with a good email exchange with Andrerw Pietenpol--great guy. I also ordered William Wynn's Corvair conversion manual, but have not yet received it. I (like Andrew Pietenpol it seems) have completed a plans built mahogany boat designed by Glen L. Witt of Glen-L Marine. Thus, I have considerable experience with wood working tools, epoxies, paints and coatings, etc. So, I have confidence that my craftsmanship will be up to par. My questions are based on things I've read on a variety of websites and forums about the Piet. First: I will build the Air Camper as a single seat ship with a generous baggage compartment where the front seat would normally be. Second: I would like to entertain the possibility of a wider fuselage--just a few inches. To simplify this mod, I would like to widen the center section of the three-piece wing by an equal amount (I saw a widened center section on the 'West Coast Pietenpol' website). This might also allow for a slightly larger wing tank which appeals to me. I want long-legged cross country capability in this craft. Third: CG questions plague my mind with such a setup. Do I leave the rear seat where it is and make cabane angle adjustments? Should I make longer cabane struts to allow for this and to keep the pilot access flap out of my face? Forth: At my weight, do I target the 120HP Corvair for best climb performance or is this excessive for the mount/firewall? Finally: I want to keep usable load as high as possible, so I am leaning toward a built-up 'I' beam type spar as there is a considerable amount of information on this type available for homebuilts in general. Does anyone herein have experience with this method? I know I do not care for the idea of routing spars. I have yet to decide on gear type, but I'm leaning toward whatever is lightest with tall thin wheels. Sorry for my lack of brevity. I'm just eager to get some of these issues resolved in my mind so I can see the long path ahead and get started. Thanks for any and all assistance. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438558#438558 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear From: "biplan53" Terry you can also buy the spring assembly already built from Wag Aero. You only have to measure and put the ends on them. The only down side is they cost about 298.00. I think they are on page 40. Hope this helps someone. -------- Building steel fuselage aircamper. 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