---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/24/15: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:54 AM - Re: Four-bladed prop (womenfly2) 2. 09:51 AM - Re: Four-bladed prop (dwilson) 3. 11:44 AM - Re: Four-bladed prop (AircamperN11MS) 4. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Four-bladed prop (Steven Dortch) 5. 12:31 PM - Andy-- storage space and fuel (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]) 6. 01:56 PM - Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Charles N. Campbell) 7. 02:32 PM - Fw: Andy-- storage space and fuel (woodflier) 8. 02:33 PM - Re: Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear (Charles Burkholder) 9. 03:40 PM - Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (George Abernathy) 10. 03:58 PM - Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Scott Knowlton) 11. 03:58 PM - Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Scott Knowlton) 12. 04:19 PM - Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Andy Garrett) 13. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Jack Philips) 14. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Steven Dortch) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Four-bladed prop From: "womenfly2" Solidity is simply the ratio of the total blade area of the propeller to the disk swept out when the prop turns. The blade area is roughly the length (called the radius) times the width (called the chord). More solidity = less efficiency. Generally speaking, the more blades, the less efficient the propeller...for cruise. Of course, a whole lot depends on the blade cross section, width, length, rotational speed, etc. So think of it like this: The blades of a propeller interact with each other, in a manner which decreases efficiency. If you think of the blades as wings, each blade will be operating in the downwash and disturbed wake from the preceding blades. More blades mean more interaction means less efficient. Four blades are fine but thin out the blade chord width like a Cub prop. WF2 -------- Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438645#438645 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:59 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Four-bladed prop From: "dwilson" I like it ! No, I really like it! Dan, you must be one of those experimental home builders. I can't wait until you start working on the contra rotating prop design. There is nothing like creating your own prop with a fine piece of wood ! Got to go, furnace is running in the shop. Dan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438661#438661 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Four-bladed prop From: "AircamperN11MS" Dan, What a beautiful looking prop. Have you weighed it. I would guess it weighs about 18 pounds. I like it. It should be fun and keep you on your toes when propping it. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438666#438666 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Four-bladed prop From: Steven Dortch theoretically the best is a single blade like the everel blade I would love to have/ make one of these. Blue Skies, Steve D On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 6:54 AM, womenfly2 wrote: > > Solidity is simply the ratio of the total blade area of the propeller to > the disk swept out when the prop turns. The blade area is roughly the > length (called the radius) times the width (called the chord). > > More solidity = less efficiency. > Generally speaking, the more blades, the less efficient the > propeller...for cruise. > Of course, a whole lot depends on the blade cross section, width, length, > rotational speed, etc. > > So think of it like this: The blades of a propeller interact with each > other, in a manner which decreases efficiency. If you think of the blades > as wings, each blade will be operating in the downwash and disturbed wake > from the preceding blades. More blades mean more interaction means less > efficient. > > Four blades are fine but thin out the blade chord width like a Cub prop. > > WF2 > > -------- > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438645#438645 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:49 PM PST US From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC]" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Andy-- storage space and fuel QW5keSwNCg0KV2VsY29tZSB0byB0aGUgbGlzdC4gIE15IHR3byBjZW50cyBvbiB5b3VyIGlkZWFz IG9mIGEgd2luZyB0YW5rIGFuZCBoZWFkZXIgdGFuay0tLW5vIG5lZWQgZm9yIGVpdGhlci4gICBT aW1wbHkgZmFicmljYXRlIGEgbGFyZ2Ugbm9zZSB0YW5rDQpmb3IgcmlnaHQgYmVoaW5kIHlvdXIg ZmlyZXdhbGwgYW5kIHlvdSB3aWxsIHJlYXAgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBhZHZhbnRhZ2VzOg0KDQoN CjEpICAgICAgeW91ciB3aW5nIGNlbnRlciBzZWN0aW9uIGNhbiBiZSB1c2VkIGVudGlyZWx5IGZv ciBiYWdnYWdlLiAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cud2VzdGNvYXN0cGlldC5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL01pa2UlMjBD dXklMjBBLTY1JTIwUGlldC9taWtlX2N1eS5odG0NCg0KMikgICAgICB5b3XigJlsbCBuZXZlciBu ZWVkIGEgbGFkZGVyIHRvIGdldCB1cCB0byBmdWVsIHlvdXIgY2VudGVyIHNlY3Rpb24gdGFuay4N Cg0KMykgICAgICB5b3XigJlsbCBuZXZlciBzcGlsbCBmdWVsIGZyb20gZmlsbGluZyB5b3VyIHdp bmcgdGFuayBpbnRvIHlvdXIgY29ja3BpdA0KDQo0KSAgICAgIHlvdeKAmWxsIGhhdmUgYWJvdXQg MiBob3Vycywgd2l0aCBnZW5lcm91cyByZXNlcnZlcyB3aXRoIGEgbGFyZ2Ugbm9zZSB0YW5rLg0K DQo1KSAgICAgIE15IG5vc2UgdGFuayBpcyAxNyBnYWxsb25zIGFuZCBJIGhhdmUgZmxvd24gMiBo b3VyIDMwIG1pbnV0ZSBsZWdzIHdoaWNoIGhpcyByaWRpY3Vsb3VzIGJ1dCBpdCBjYW4gYmUgZG9u ZS4NCg0KNikgICAgICB5b3XigJlsbCBlbGltaW5hdGUgZXh0cmEgZnVlbCBsaW5lcywgc2h1dG9m ZiB2YWx2ZXMsIGZpdHRpbmdzLCBhbmQgd2VpZ2h0Lg0KDQo3KSAgICAgIHlvdSB3aWxsIGJlIGFi bGUgdG8gZmlsbCB5b3VyIHRhbmsgc3RhbmRpbmcgb24gdGhlIGdyb3VuZCwgd2l0aG91dCBhIGxh ZGRlciBpZiBuZWNlc3Nhcnkgb3IgZnJvbSBmdWVsIGNhbnMgb2YgeW91ciBjaG9pY2UuDQoNCg0K QXMgb3RoZXJzIGhhdmUgbWVudGlvbmVkLCB5b3UgY2FuIHN0aWxsIGluc3RhbGwgYSBzcGFydGFu IGZyb250IGNvY2twaXQgYW5kIGhhdmUgYSB2ZXJ5IGxhcmdlIGJhZ2dhZ2UgY2FwYWNpdHkgaWYg eW91IGFyZSBnb2luZyBjcm9zcyBjb3VudHJ5IHdpdGhvdXQNCmEgcGFzc2VuZ2VyLiAgIEkgaW5z dGFsbGVkIGEgcmVtb3ZhYmxlIGNvbnRyb2wgc3RpY2sgaW4gdGhlIGZyb250ICAoc2xpcCBmaXRz IGludG8gdGhlIHN0aWNrIHNvY2tldCBpZiBteSBwYXNzZW5nZXIgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBmbHkp ICBhbmQgaGFkIGEgbG9jYWwgdXBob2xzdGVyeQ0Kc2hvcCBzZXcgdXAgYSBibGFjayBjYW52YXMg VS1zaGFwZWQgc2FjayB0aGF0IHNuYXBzIGFsbCB0aGUgd2F5IGFyb3VuZCB0aGUgcGVyaW1ldGVy IG9mIG15IGZyb250IGNvY2twaXQgdG8gaG9sZCBteSBjYW1waW5nIGdlYXIgYW5kIG90aGVyIGVz c2VudGlhbA0KdGhpbmdzIGxpa2UgcGlsbG93IGFuZCB0ZWRkeSBiZWFyIGFuZCBzbmFja3MgYW5k IHN1Y2guICAgTG90cyBvZiByb29tIHVwIHRoZXJl4oCUeW914oCZZCBiZSBhbWF6ZWQgd2hhdCB5 b3UgY2FuIGNhcnJ5IGJldHdlZW4geW91ciBvcGVuIGNlbnRlciBzZWN0aW9uIGFuZA0KZnJvbnQg Y29ja3BpdCBzbGluZy4gICBJIGFsc28gaGFkIHRoZSB1cGhvbHN0ZXJ5IHNob3Agc2V3IHVwIHR3 byBnZW51aW5lIGZha2UgbGVhdGhlciBSaWNoIENvcmludGhpYW4gKGRpZCBJIG1lbnRpb24gZmFr ZT8pIGxlYXRoZXIgY29ja3BpdCBjb3ZlcnMgdGhhdCBrZWVwIGFsbA0KbXkgc3R1ZmYgZnJvbSBm bHlpbmcgb3V0IG9mIHRoZSBmcm9udCBjb2NrcGl0IGFuZCB0byBjb3ZlciB1cCB0aGUgY29ja3Bp dHMgd2hpbGUgcGFya2VkIG92ZXJuaWdodCBhdCBmbHktaW7igJlzLiAgICBJIGhvcGUgdGhpcyBo ZWxwcyENCg0KTWlrZSBDLg0KT2hpbw0KDQoNCg0KW2NpZDppbWFnZTAwMS5wbmdAMDFEMDUwNDYu REQ5RDk4MTBdDQoNCg0KDQoNCg= ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andy-- storage space and fuel From: "Charles N. Campbell" Mike, if it didn't help him it certainly helped me. I'm going to archive that so that I will remember when I get ready to build a gas tank. Could you give me the dimensions of your tank? Thanks, Chuck On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC] wrote: > Andy, > > > Welcome to the list. My two cents on your ideas of a wing tank and heade r > tank---no need for either. Simply fabricate a large nose tank > > for right behind your firewall and you will reap the following advantages : > > > 1) your wing center section can be used entirely for baggage. > http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mike_cuy.htm > > 2) you=99ll never need a ladder to get up to fuel your center section > tank. > > 3) you=99ll never spill fuel from filling your wing tank into your > cockpit > > 4) you=99ll have about 2 hours, with generous reserves with a large > nose tank. > > 5) My nose tank is 17 gallons and I have flown 2 hour 30 minute legs > which his ridiculous but it can be done. > > 6) you=99ll eliminate extra fuel lines, shutoff valves, fittin gs, and > weight. > > 7) you will be able to fill your tank standing on the ground, > without a ladder if necessary or from fuel cans of your choice. > > > As others have mentioned, you can still install a spartan front cockpit > and have a very large baggage capacity if you are going cross country > without > > a passenger. I installed a removable control stick in the front (slip > fits into the stick socket if my passenger would like to fly) and had a > local upholstery > > shop sew up a black canvas U-shaped sack that snaps all the way around th e > perimeter of my front cockpit to hold my camping gear and other essential > > things like pillow and teddy bear and snacks and such. Lots of room up > there=94you=99d be amazed what you can carry between your ope n center section > and > > front cockpit sling. I also had the upholstery shop sew up two genuine > fake leather Rich Corinthian (did I mention fake?) leather cockpit covers > that keep all > > my stuff from flying out of the front cockpit and to cover up the cockpit s > while parked overnight at fly-in=99s. I hope this helps! > > > Mike C. > > Ohio > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:31 PM PST US From: woodflier Subject: Fwd: Pietenpol-List: Andy-- storage space and fuel I'll vouch for Mike Cuy's comments on the fuselage tank. I went the same wa y with a tank in the nose. I see Mark Chouinard is doing the same thing. I ended up with 16 gallons, and I call the last 5 non-usable. This gives me 2 /12 hours of endurance which exceeds the endurance of my butt. I do notice a small trim change as the fuel burns off but it's not noticeable holding the stick. My airplane doesn't have a trim system and with a full tank, wil l begin to go nose-down hands off. But at about a half tank, it's stable. A t low fuel, there's a tail heavy moment. It's close enough to being in trim that if I put my arms outside the cockpi t and forward, the nose goes down, If you put them back, it goes up. I like having the center section baggage compartment and found a small flat soft bag that fits in there just fine. I keep chocks, cockpit covers, a fe w tools and tie-downs up there. Matt Paxton NX629ML -----Original Message----- From: Charles N. Campbell Sent: Tue, Feb 24, 2015 5:00 pm Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andy-- storage space and fuel Mike, if it didn't help him it certainly helped me. I'm going to archive t hat so that I will remember when I get ready to build a gas tank. Could yo u give me the dimensions of your tank? Thanks, Chuck On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partner s, LLC] wrote: Andy, Welcome to the list. My two cents on your ideas of a wing tank and header tank---no need for either. Simply fabricate a large nose tank for right behind your firewall and you will reap the following advantages: 1) your wing center section can be used entirely for baggage. http: //www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mike_cuy.htm 2) you=99ll never need a ladder to get up to fuel your center se ction tank. 3) you=99ll never spill fuel from filling your wing tank into yo ur cockpit 4) you=99ll have about 2 hours, with generous reserves with a la rge nose tank. 5) My nose tank is 17 gallons and I have flown 2 hour 30 minute legs w hich his ridiculous but it can be done. 6) you=99ll eliminate extra fuel lines, shutoff valves, fittings , and weight. 7) you will be able to fill your tank standing on the ground, without a ladder if necessary or from fuel cans of your choice. As others have mentioned, you can still install a spartan front cockpit and have a very large baggage capacity if you are going cross country without a passenger. I installed a removable control stick in the front (slip fi ts into the stick socket if my passenger would like to fly) and had a loca l upholstery shop sew up a black canvas U-shaped sack that snaps all the way around the perimeter of my front cockpit to hold my camping gear and other essential things like pillow and teddy bear and snacks and such. Lots of room up th ere=94you=99d be amazed what you can carry between your open ce nter section and front cockpit sling. I also had the upholstery shop sew up two genuine fa ke leather Rich Corinthian (did I mention fake?) leather cockpit covers tha t keep all my stuff from flying out of the front cockpit and to cover up the cockpits while parked overnight at fly-in=99s. I hope this helps! Mike C. Ohio ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:20 PM PST US From: Charles Burkholder Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: VNE at cruise- bungees versus springs landing gear Thankyou for your input everyone. I am going with the steel spring setup. I have watched people work on bungee's and have no desire to have them. On 2/20/2015 9:39 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > Glen, > > Here is a link to a discussion about the replacement of bungees with die springs written a while back by William Wynne- > > http://flycorvair.net/2012/10/27/new-die-spring-landing-gear-on-a-pietenpol-10-a-m-4-p-m/ > > Below is a copy of the page of the catalog in which I have noted the die springs I ordered. They were , if memory serves, around $85 or $90, cheaper than I could find anywhere else. The contact info as at the bottom of the page. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438541#438541 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/diamondwirecatalog_dragged_177.pdf > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > -- Charles Burkholder Visit my blog @ http://missionmechfund.blogspot.ca/ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:45 PM PST US From: George Abernathy Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andy-- storage space and fuel I like your thinking. =0AG ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andy-- storage space and fuel From: Scott Knowlton I followed Mike's good advice and am glad I did. Front combings are 10.5 in ches above the longerons with the tank holding 18.5 gals. Very simple and e asy to engineer/install. Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario. Sent from my iPad > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, L LC] wrote: > > Andy, > > Welcome to the list. My two cents on your ideas of a wing tank and header tank---no need for either. Simply fabricate a large nose tank > for right behind your firewall and you will reap the following advantages: > > 1) your wing center section can be used entirely for baggage. http: //www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mike_cuy.htm > 2) you=99ll never need a ladder to get up to fuel your center s ection tank. > 3) you=99ll never spill fuel from filling your wing tank into y our cockpit > 4) you=99ll have about 2 hours, with generous reserves with a l arge nose tank. > 5) My nose tank is 17 gallons and I have flown 2 hour 30 minute legs w hich his ridiculous but it can be done. > 6) you=99ll eliminate extra fuel lines, shutoff valves, fitting s, and weight. > 7) you will be able to fill your tank standing on the ground, without a ladder if necessary or from fuel cans of your choice. > > > As others have mentioned, you can still install a spartan front cockpit an d have a very large baggage capacity if you are going cross country without > a passenger. I installed a removable control stick in the front (slip f its into the stick socket if my passenger would like to fly) and had a loca l upholstery > shop sew up a black canvas U-shaped sack that snaps all the way around the perimeter of my front cockpit to hold my camping gear and other essential > things like pillow and teddy bear and snacks and such. Lots of room up t here=94you=99d be amazed what you can carry between your open ce nter section and > front cockpit sling. I also had the upholstery shop sew up two genuine f ake leather Rich Corinthian (did I mention fake?) leather cockpit covers tha t keep all > my stuff from flying out of the front cockpit and to cover up the cockpits while parked overnight at fly-in=99s. I hope this helps! > > Mike C. > Ohio > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Andy-- storage space and fuel From: Scott Knowlton I followed Mike's good advice and am glad I did. Front combings are 10.5 in ches above the longerons with the tank holding 18.5 gals. Very simple and e asy to engineer/install. Scott Knowlton Burlington Ontario. Sent from my iPad > On Feb 24, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, L LC] wrote: > > Andy, > > Welcome to the list. My two cents on your ideas of a wing tank and header tank---no need for either. Simply fabricate a large nose tank > for right behind your firewall and you will reap the following advantages: > > 1) your wing center section can be used entirely for baggage. http: //www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Mike%20Cuy%20A-65%20Piet/mike_cuy.htm > 2) you=99ll never need a ladder to get up to fuel your center s ection tank. > 3) you=99ll never spill fuel from filling your wing tank into y our cockpit > 4) you=99ll have about 2 hours, with generous reserves with a l arge nose tank. > 5) My nose tank is 17 gallons and I have flown 2 hour 30 minute legs w hich his ridiculous but it can be done. > 6) you=99ll eliminate extra fuel lines, shutoff valves, fitting s, and weight. > 7) you will be able to fill your tank standing on the ground, without a ladder if necessary or from fuel cans of your choice. > > > As others have mentioned, you can still install a spartan front cockpit an d have a very large baggage capacity if you are going cross country without > a passenger. I installed a removable control stick in the front (slip f its into the stick socket if my passenger would like to fly) and had a loca l upholstery > shop sew up a black canvas U-shaped sack that snaps all the way around the perimeter of my front cockpit to hold my camping gear and other essential > things like pillow and teddy bear and snacks and such. Lots of room up t here=94you=99d be amazed what you can carry between your open ce nter section and > front cockpit sling. I also had the upholstery shop sew up two genuine f ake leather Rich Corinthian (did I mention fake?) leather cockpit covers tha t keep all > my stuff from flying out of the front cockpit and to cover up the cockpits while parked overnight at fly-in=99s. I hope this helps! > > Mike C. > Ohio > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:01 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel From: "Andy Garrett" Well, that's just pretty obvious, isn't it? I'm left wondering why anyone would do it the other way. This doesn't require a pump does it? Still gravity feed--yes? -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438682#438682 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:31 PM PST US From: "Jack Philips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel Let me give the response from the Loyal Opposition: A nose tank is a good solution, but does have its drawbacks: 1. Pressure head. With a gravity fuel system (no fuel pumps) the recommended head above the carburetor at minimum fuel is 17". One of the worst things that can happen is to be at very low fuel and be on short final when some idiot in a Cessna pulls out onto the runway to takeoff (having just announced his intentions on the radio, assuming everyone has a radio and uses it). You shove the throttle forward, haul back on the stick and the engine sputters and quits because there is not enough pressure head to flow sufficient fuel to the carburetor. That's why one of the critical tests you need to make before your first flight is a fuel flow test with the tailwheel set in a hole several inches below ground level, simulating the maximum angle of climb you might ever need. 2. Loss of easy to access baggage space. With my fuel tank in the centersection, I have a very nice baggage compartment big enough to hold a tent, a sleeping bag, an airmattress and a small duffle bag, in addition to the chocks and tie downs I always carry. And I can access that baggage compartment without a ladder. I don't see how you can carry much of a tent in the centersection, since it's only about 5" tall at the most. I've seen the tent Mike Cuy uses. My dog wouldn't fit in it. And it's a very small dog. 3. With the tank in the centersection CG changes with fuel burn are minimal and are not noticeable. 4. With the tank in the nose it is difficult to provide a sump drain that can be easily reached to check for water in the gas. With a centersection tank the sump drains (you need one at the lowest point of the tank, and if the tank is flat, you'll need one on each side at the rear of the tank) are easy to check when pre-flighting the airplane. Of course, you'll also need a drain at the gascolator, which should be at the lowest point of the fuel system. Building a nose tank that won't trap water in a low point is difficult, and relying on the gascolator to show you all trapped water is dangerous 5. We can start a discussion about whether it is good to have a lap full of fuel in the event of a crash, but I'm not sure which is worse - a lap full of fuel or a face full of fuel. I think the dynamics of each and every crash are different and it is not possible to find a place for a fuel tank that is totally crashworthy. 6. When refueling with a nose tank you can get careless, knowing that your butt will stay dry even if you run the tank over. You'll only do that once with a centersection tank. Then you'll learn to refuel much more carefully (ask me how I know). Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Garrett Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:19 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel --> Well, that's just pretty obvious, isn't it? I'm left wondering why anyone would do it the other way. This doesn't require a pump does it? Still gravity feed--yes? -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438682#438682 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel From: Steven Dortch Gotta Love Experimental. Three good solutions. 1. Dual tanks, 2. Big nose tank, 3. Big wing tank. All three rationally considered and planned. Blue Skies, Steve D On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Jack Philips wrote: > jack@bedfordlandings.com> > > Let me give the response from the Loyal Opposition: > > A nose tank is a good solution, but does have its drawbacks: > > 1. Pressure head. With a gravity fuel system (no fuel pumps) the > recommended head above the carburetor at minimum fuel is 17". One of the > worst things that can happen is to be at very low fuel and be on short > final > when some idiot in a Cessna pulls out onto the runway to takeoff (having > just announced his intentions on the radio, assuming everyone has a radio > and uses it). You shove the throttle forward, haul back on the stick and > the engine sputters and quits because there is not enough pressure head to > flow sufficient fuel to the carburetor. That's why one of the critical > tests you need to make before your first flight is a fuel flow test with > the > tailwheel set in a hole several inches below ground level, simulating the > maximum angle of climb you might ever need. > > 2. Loss of easy to access baggage space. With my fuel tank in the > centersection, I have a very nice baggage compartment big enough to hold a > tent, a sleeping bag, an airmattress and a small duffle bag, in addition to > the chocks and tie downs I always carry. And I can access that baggage > compartment without a ladder. I don't see how you can carry much of a tent > in the centersection, since it's only about 5" tall at the most. I've seen > the tent Mike Cuy uses. My dog wouldn't fit in it. And it's a very small > dog. > > 3. With the tank in the centersection CG changes with fuel burn are > minimal > and are not noticeable. > > 4. With the tank in the nose it is difficult to provide a sump drain that > can be easily reached to check for water in the gas. With a centersection > tank the sump drains (you need one at the lowest point of the tank, and if > the tank is flat, you'll need one on each side at the rear of the tank) are > easy to check when pre-flighting the airplane. Of course, you'll also need > a drain at the gascolator, which should be at the lowest point of the fuel > system. Building a nose tank that won't trap water in a low point is > difficult, and relying on the gascolator to show you all trapped water is > dangerous > > 5. We can start a discussion about whether it is good to have a lap full > of > fuel in the event of a crash, but I'm not sure which is worse - a lap full > of fuel or a face full of fuel. I think the dynamics of each and every > crash are different and it is not possible to find a place for a fuel tank > that is totally crashworthy. > > 6. When refueling with a nose tank you can get careless, knowing that your > butt will stay dry even if you run the tank over. You'll only do that once > with a centersection tank. Then you'll learn to refuel much more carefully > (ask me how I know). > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy > Garrett > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:19 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel > > --> > > Well, that's just pretty obvious, isn't it? > > I'm left wondering why anyone would do it the other way. > > This doesn't require a pump does it? Still gravity feed--yes? > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438682#438682 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.