Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:27 AM - Re: Re: Four-bladed prop (danhelsper@aol.com)
2. 08:23 AM - nose tank---gravity fed (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-LME0)[Vantage Partners, LLC])
3. 12:03 PM - Re: Four-bladed prop (dwilson)
4. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (airlion2@gmail.com)
5. 06:12 PM - Re: nose tank---gravity fed (taildrags)
6. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Ray Krause)
7. 08:19 PM - Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (Andy Garrett)
8. 09:41 PM - Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (taildrags)
9. 09:54 PM - Re: Four-bladed prop (taildrags)
10. 11:30 PM - Re: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel (CLIF DAWSON)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Four-bladed prop |
WF2,
Thank you for all your advice. I momentarily considered slicing-up my too-wide
blades, in order to increase efficiency, and make it look like a Cub, but then
in about a millisecond came to my senses and decided against. Then I got to pondering
(that's what we do down here in W. Tennessee) wondering why Hartzell,
the hard-core air racers, military transports, commercial turboprops etc. do
not use a single-bladed prop since it the most efficient design. The conclusion
I came up with was, that those props need some way to harness all that horsepower
from those engines, and after some thought, figured that that is precisely
why I also needed four blades.
Dan Helsper
Loensloe Airfield
Puryear, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: womenfly2 <Love2Fly.KAP@gmail.com>
Sent: Tue, Feb 24, 2015 9:14 am
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Four-bladed prop
<Love2Fly.KAP@gmail.com>
Solidity is simply the ratio of the total blade area
of the propeller to the disk swept out when the prop turns. The blade area is
roughly the length (called the radius) times the width (called the
chord).
More solidity = less efficiency.
Generally speaking, the more
blades, the less efficient the propeller...for cruise.
Of course, a whole lot
depends on the blade cross section, width, length, rotational speed, etc.
So
think of it like this: The blades of a propeller interact with each other, in a
manner which decreases efficiency. If you think of the blades as wings, each
blade will be operating in the downwash and disturbed wake from the preceding
blades. More blades mean more interaction means less efficient.
Four blades
are fine but thin out the blade chord width like a Cub
prop.
WF2
--------
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here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438645#438645
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| Subject: | nose tank---gravity fed |
Andy,
Yes, my A-65 is all gravity fed with no need for a fuel pump.
I highly suggest to follow the gravity fuel flow test that Tony Bingelis ou
tlines in his homebuilder book series because that way
you know exactly how much useable and unusable fuel you have in your tank.
For a full-power, nose high (takeoff climb attitude) for my engine I can sa
fely operate (according to the calculations I gleaned from Tony's books and
test suggestions)
down to 1.3 gallons remaining of my 17 gallon capacity. I never cut my f
uel this low but at least I know when the fuel flow rate becomes insufficie
nt to keep the carb
fed.
I basically built my plane with a phone, a credit card, and the Tony Bingel
is books. The Bingelis books are worth their weight in gold for any homeb
uider---a bit dated but
airworthiness never gets out of date really.
And Chuck Campbell, I'm sorry but I don't have dimensions for my fuel tank
but basically I followed the shape of my front cockpit instrument panel ra
dius (though I raised
my instrument panels 1" higher than plans.) and then made the bottom of it
slope forward at about the same angle and a little above as the front seat
passenger's legs
would be positioned.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Four-bladed prop |
Makes sense to me ! They did the same thing with the spitfire. Two blades, then
three, then four, then five, then the contra rotating. You have that God given
Pietenpol grin even when your not flying ! Now get started on the five blade
model to harness all that Ford horsepower !
Dan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438725#438725
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel |
One good solution is to strap a tent or whatever you wantunder the wing, I d
id and itdoesn,t change the flight characteristics.
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 24, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch@gmail.com> wr
ote:
>
> Gotta Love Experimental. Three good solutions. 1. Dual tanks, 2. Big nose t
ank, 3. Big wing tank. All three rationally considered and planned.
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
>> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com> w
rote:
s.com>
>>
>> Let me give the response from the Loyal Opposition:
>>
>> A nose tank is a good solution, but does have its drawbacks:
>>
>> 1. Pressure head. With a gravity fuel system (no fuel pumps) the
>> recommended head above the carburetor at minimum fuel is 17". One of the
>> worst things that can happen is to be at very low fuel and be on short fi
nal
>> when some idiot in a Cessna pulls out onto the runway to takeoff (having
>> just announced his intentions on the radio, assuming everyone has a radio
>> and uses it). You shove the throttle forward, haul back on the stick and
>> the engine sputters and quits because there is not enough pressure head t
o
>> flow sufficient fuel to the carburetor. That's why one of the critical
>> tests you need to make before your first flight is a fuel flow test with t
he
>> tailwheel set in a hole several inches below ground level, simulating the
>> maximum angle of climb you might ever need.
>>
>> 2. Loss of easy to access baggage space. With my fuel tank in the
>> centersection, I have a very nice baggage compartment big enough to hold a
>> tent, a sleeping bag, an airmattress and a small duffle bag, in addition t
o
>> the chocks and tie downs I always carry. And I can access that baggage
>> compartment without a ladder. I don't see how you can carry much of a te
nt
>> in the centersection, since it's only about 5" tall at the most. I've se
en
>> the tent Mike Cuy uses. My dog wouldn't fit in it. And it's a very smal
l
>> dog.
>>
>> 3. With the tank in the centersection CG changes with fuel burn are mini
mal
>> and are not noticeable.
>>
>> 4. With the tank in the nose it is difficult to provide a sump drain tha
t
>> can be easily reached to check for water in the gas. With a centersectio
n
>> tank the sump drains (you need one at the lowest point of the tank, and i
f
>> the tank is flat, you'll need one on each side at the rear of the tank) a
re
>> easy to check when pre-flighting the airplane. Of course, you'll also ne
ed
>> a drain at the gascolator, which should be at the lowest point of the fue
l
>> system. Building a nose tank that won't trap water in a low point is
>> difficult, and relying on the gascolator to show you all trapped water is
>> dangerous
>>
>> 5. We can start a discussion about whether it is good to have a lap full
of
>> fuel in the event of a crash, but I'm not sure which is worse - a lap ful
l
>> of fuel or a face full of fuel. I think the dynamics of each and every
>> crash are different and it is not possible to find a place for a fuel tan
k
>> that is totally crashworthy.
>>
>> 6. When refueling with a nose tank you can get careless, knowing that yo
ur
>> butt will stay dry even if you run the tank over. You'll only do that on
ce
>> with a centersection tank. Then you'll learn to refuel much more careful
ly
>> (ask me how I know).
>>
>> Jack Phillips
>> NX899JP
>> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Garr
ett
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:19 PM
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel
>>
>> --> <andy_garrett@live.com>
>>
>> Well, that's just pretty obvious, isn't it?
>>
>> I'm left wondering why anyone would do it the other way.
>>
>> This doesn't require a pump does it? Still gravity feed--yes?
>>
>> --------
>> Andy Garrett
>> 'General Purpose Creative Dude'
>> Haysville, Kansas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438682#438682
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> enpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Piet
enpol-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>
>
>
> --
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
>
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>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: nose tank---gravity fed |
This is amazing. Now that I see the sketches of how Mikee did it, I realize that
the fuel tank, float, outlet, valve, and everything aft of the firewall on
NX41CC is nearly identical to what is shown in the sketches, down to the tensioning
strap across the top and everything in-between. My tank holds 16 gallons
but I have never actually run the Bingelis test to determine unusable fuel...
I ran the Zuniga test, where you fly it to fuel exhaustion. I do not recommend
this test method unless you are interested in methods for assisted suicide
(legal in Oregon but not in Texas, where I inadvertently ran the test).
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438744#438744
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel |
Just as a point of interest: had a friend who commuted to Chico State Colleg
e in a Cub. He strapped a bicycle to the struts so he could ride from the ai
rport (Ranchero) to the campus, 1.5 miles! He said the plane flew the same w
ith, or without the bike...slowly!
Ray
Krause
Covering SkyScout
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 25, 2015, at 12:28 PM, airlion2@gmail.com wrote:
>
> One good solution is to strap a tent or whatever you wantunder the wing, I
did and itdoesn,t change the flight characteristics.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Feb 24, 2015, at 10:11 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch@gmail.com> w
rote:
>>
>> Gotta Love Experimental. Three good solutions. 1. Dual tanks, 2. Big nose
tank, 3. Big wing tank. All three rationally considered and planned.
>>
>> Blue Skies,
>> Steve D
>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
wrote:
gs.com>
>>>
>>> Let me give the response from the Loyal Opposition:
>>>
>>> A nose tank is a good solution, but does have its drawbacks:
>>>
>>> 1. Pressure head. With a gravity fuel system (no fuel pumps) the
>>> recommended head above the carburetor at minimum fuel is 17". One of th
e
>>> worst things that can happen is to be at very low fuel and be on short f
inal
>>> when some idiot in a Cessna pulls out onto the runway to takeoff (having
>>> just announced his intentions on the radio, assuming everyone has a radi
o
>>> and uses it). You shove the throttle forward, haul back on the stick an
d
>>> the engine sputters and quits because there is not enough pressure head t
o
>>> flow sufficient fuel to the carburetor. That's why one of the critical
>>> tests you need to make before your first flight is a fuel flow test with
the
>>> tailwheel set in a hole several inches below ground level, simulating th
e
>>> maximum angle of climb you might ever need.
>>>
>>> 2. Loss of easy to access baggage space. With my fuel tank in the
>>> centersection, I have a very nice baggage compartment big enough to hold
a
>>> tent, a sleeping bag, an airmattress and a small duffle bag, in addition
to
>>> the chocks and tie downs I always carry. And I can access that baggage
>>> compartment without a ladder. I don't see how you can carry much of a t
ent
>>> in the centersection, since it's only about 5" tall at the most. I've s
een
>>> the tent Mike Cuy uses. My dog wouldn't fit in it. And it's a very sma
ll
>>> dog.
>>>
>>> 3. With the tank in the centersection CG changes with fuel burn are min
imal
>>> and are not noticeable.
>>>
>>> 4. With the tank in the nose it is difficult to provide a sump drain th
at
>>> can be easily reached to check for water in the gas. With a centersecti
on
>>> tank the sump drains (you need one at the lowest point of the tank, and i
f
>>> the tank is flat, you'll need one on each side at the rear of the tank) a
re
>>> easy to check when pre-flighting the airplane. Of course, you'll also n
eed
>>> a drain at the gascolator, which should be at the lowest point of the fu
el
>>> system. Building a nose tank that won't trap water in a low point is
>>> difficult, and relying on the gascolator to show you all trapped water i
s
>>> dangerous
>>>
>>> 5. We can start a discussion about whether it is good to have a lap ful
l of
>>> fuel in the event of a crash, but I'm not sure which is worse - a lap fu
ll
>>> of fuel or a face full of fuel. I think the dynamics of each and every
>>> crash are different and it is not possible to find a place for a fuel ta
nk
>>> that is totally crashworthy.
>>>
>>> 6. When refueling with a nose tank you can get careless, knowing that y
our
>>> butt will stay dry even if you run the tank over. You'll only do that o
nce
>>> with a centersection tank. Then you'll learn to refuel much more carefu
lly
>>> (ask me how I know).
>>>
>>> Jack Phillips
>>> NX899JP
>>> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Gar
rett
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 7:19 PM
>>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel
>>>
>>> --> <andy_garrett@live.com>
>>>
>>> Well, that's just pretty obvious, isn't it?
>>>
>>> I'm left wondering why anyone would do it the other way.
>>>
>>> This doesn't require a pump does it? Still gravity feed--yes?
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Andy Garrett
>>> 'General Purpose Creative Dude'
>>> Haysville, Kansas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438682#438682
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> br> enpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pie
tenpol-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Blue Skies,
>> Steve D
>>
>>
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> npol-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> //forums.matronics.com
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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>> ot;">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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>>
>
>
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>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel |
More excellent points. I suspect this will be a trend--multiple solutions to challenges.
To be clear..., a 'header tank' is just a smaller tank in the nose which is fed
by the wing tank. Yes?
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438750#438750
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel |
Andy;
My answer to your question about a header tank is just my answer-"yes", but to
elaborate, I consider a header tank to be one that doesn't have its own filler
cap and so it is filled from the main tank by the pilot's manipulation of valves.
If I could possibly stretch an aviation regulation that says there must
be a quantity indicator for each fuel tank, I would further stretch things by
saying that header tanks don't usually have quantity indicators. You have a
fuel gauge for the main tank, but once it feeds into the header tank you don't
typically have a readout of what's in that tank. Anyone else care to comment?
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438753#438753
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Four-bladed prop |
WF2, I'm with you on the principle of one blade's interfering with the aerodynamic
efficiency of those that follow it in the arc. As I understand it, the trend
towards 4-, 5-, and 6-blade props on the fast twins and turboprops has more
to do with noise than with efficiency, although there is no arguing with the
airlines' desire to move the most load while burning the least amount of fuel.
That said, I hope you'll concede the point that on this list at least, appearance
(and aesthetics) carry almost as much weight as efficiency? We never were
about efficiency here, or else we would have come up with a fast glass parallel
to the traditional Air Camper much as "Lionheart" is to the Beech Staggerwing.
The 4-bladed wood prop that a builder carves by hand says so much more
than a Prince P-tip says about the airplane... and I'm saying this as an Air
Camper owner/pilot who owns a perfectly good (and probably more efficient) P-Tip
but has not yet had the heart to install it on my airplane instead of the laminated
wood Tennessee Props stick that is on it.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=438754#438754
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Andy-- storage space and fuel |
Really large bump in the fuel line.=C2- :-)
Clif
----- Original Message -----
To be clear..., a 'header tank' is just a smaller tank in the nose which is
fed by the wing tank. Yes?
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
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