Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Bill Church)
2. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... (Steven Dortch)
3. 10:59 AM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (Fastnaught John)
4. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steven Dortch)
5. 12:51 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (Barry Davis)
6. 01:03 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (AircamperN11MS)
7. 01:09 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steve Ruse)
8. 01:33 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (JammerRv8@aol.com)
9. 01:39 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Bill Church)
10. 01:50 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Bill Church)
11. 02:10 PM - Jack's new Piet (Bill Church)
12. 02:20 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Gary Boothe)
13. 02:20 PM - Frustrating day of study (Andy Garrett)
14. 02:25 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Andy Garrett)
15. 02:54 PM - Re: New (Free) Aviation App (gbrasch)
16. 03:07 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Gary Boothe)
17. 03:47 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Andy Garrett)
18. 04:06 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (Jack Philips)
19. 04:16 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Michael Groah)
20. 04:22 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (gliderx5@comcast.net)
21. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (glenschweizer@yahoo.com)
22. 04:50 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Andy Garrett)
23. 04:51 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (Gary Boothe)
24. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (Gary Boothe)
25. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (shad bell)
26. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (Michael Groah)
27. 07:03 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Michael Groah)
28. 08:26 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steven Dortch)
29. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steven Dortch)
30. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: BRS in a Piet? (Ray Krause)
31. 10:01 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (taildrags)
32. 10:19 PM - Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... (biplan53)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
Ray,
My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the messages that
have been posted since the time that it became operational (almost 9 years
ago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely require someone taking
the time to (manually?) add all of the archived posts. I sure wouldn't want
to be saddled with that task.
In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a different
format. Here's the link to the old information page for the Pietenpol List,
with various links to access the archived information.
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List
Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very top of
the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't explicitly stated
that the newer Forum can only access messages that have been posted after
April 2006.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439505#439505
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| Subject: | Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... |
Is he a Putin wannabe? LOL
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:24 PM, biplan53 <biplan53@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was standing there in camouflaged coveralls and I can confirm how cold
> it was. I think we can nickname Kevin Iron man.
>
> --------
> Building steel fuselage aircamper.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439501#439501
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
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| Subject: | Re: Model A Engine overheat |
Hello good friends and fellow Pieters.
My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday,
what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address.
The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled
a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running
it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled
the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has
bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless
valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m
running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator.
Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about
1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle
and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After
3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
jack
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called?
Steve D
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>
> Ray,
>
> My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the
> messages that have been posted since the time that it became operational
> (almost 9 years ago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely
> require someone taking the time to (manually?) add all of the archived
> posts. I sure wouldn't want to be saddled with that task.
> In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a
> different format. Here's the link to the old information page for the
> Pietenpol List, with various links to access the archived information.
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List
> Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very
> top of the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't
> explicitly stated that the newer Forum can only access messages that have
> been posted after April 2006.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439505#439505
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 5
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| Subject: | Model A Engine overheat |
Check the timing and/or the flow of coolant thru the system.
Bary
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fastnaught John
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat
Hello good friends and fellow Pieters.
My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday,
what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address.
The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled
a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running
it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled
the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has
bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless
valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head.
I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely
radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up
to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open
throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils
over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
jack
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Model A Engine overheat |
Your plane is beautiful. Now that I have that out of the way. I am not that familiar
with the Model A installation. But I am wondering if you have a thermostat
or even a flow restrictor like a flat washer or something of the sorts.
It sounds to me like the water isn't staying in the radiator long enough to cool.
If you have an inferred thermometer you can check the temperature differential
between the lower radiator hose and the upper hose. The hot water should
leave the bottom of the engine and the cool water should leave the top of the
radiator and back into the engine. On the Diesel equipment that I design we
look for 30 degree differential between the lower and upper hoses. One other
thing to look at is to make sure the water pump is turning the proper direction.
I hope this gives you some kind of starting point to work with.
Good luck, oh and again. You have a beautiful looking airplane.
Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439513#439513
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
My thoughts are that a Pietenpol, properly flown, lands (or crashes) so
slow that a BRS would potentially reduce the safety of the aircraft due to
the extra weight, pyrotechnics, etc. Build it light and put that effort
towards making the fuel system and engine reliable and you will have a
safer airplane than you would with a BRS. With a 150' landing area,
precisely flown, a Pietenpol could probably be landed without hurting the
pilot. WIth a 300' landing area and a little headwind, you can land a Piet
without damaging the plane.
Check the Pietenpol crash statistics, or read Chuck Gantzer's excellent
summary. Very few people die in Piets. Especially in Kansas, where there
are more suitable landing areas than non-suitable landing areas. :-)
Speaking of Chuck Gantzer, does anyone know what happened to his site (or
Chuck himself)?
Steve Ruse
Aledo, TX (Fort Worth)
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Andy Garrett <andy_garrett@live.com> wrote:
> andy_garrett@live.com>
>
> Surprisingly, I find no discussions on this subject with a search.
>
> Anyone install a ballistic chute on their Piet? Heard of it done?
>
> The center section of the wing seems like a descent place to engineer such
> an installation.
>
> Just a curiosity. I am aware that there are those who believe that 'real
> pilots' don't use BRS, so I'm prepared for some ridicule--hit me.
>
> --------
> Andy Garrett
> 'General Purpose Creative Dude'
> Haysville, Kansas
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439491#439491
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Model A Engine overheat |
do you have a pressure relief radiator cap or is it direct vent.
Jeff martin
In a message dated 3/18/2015 2:02:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
fastnaught@windstream.net writes:
Hello good friends and fellow Pieters.
My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, what
a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address.
The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled
a
Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running it
on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled the
crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearing
s
not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats
,
and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas
T water pump
and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the
installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp rem
ains around
170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210
-215 and
boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
jack
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
The older system was called Norman. :)
But seriously, Steve, did you actually read the posts?
All of the links posted are from Matronics. The List server was and is Matronics,
since 1998 or so. In 2006, the new interface was introduced, called the Forum.
The old interface has continued to operate, in conjunction with the newer
interface. The content is the same - just a slightly different format.
Bill C.
> The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called?
>
>
> Steve D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439517#439517
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
I just read my last post.
The tone seems a bit harsh.
That wasn't my intent.
My apologies, Steve.
BC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439518#439518
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Didn't want to post this in response to Jack Fastnaught's question regarding engine
temperatures, since I have no useful information to offer in that regard,
so here's a new thread.
Beautiful work, Jack. Congratulations!
Jack Phillips now has a really good idea what his Piet would look like with a Model
A instead of the A-65. "Slight resemblance."
More photos, please.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439520#439520
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx144jf_158.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx899jp_130.jpg
Message 12
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Mike Groah, too. 3 beautiful Piets, all similar, but different somehow...ah,
yes, I can see it now, ...(someone got a finish?)
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:10 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet
--> <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Didn't want to post this in response to Jack Fastnaught's question regarding
engine temperatures, since I have no useful information to offer in that
regard, so here's a new thread.
Beautiful work, Jack. Congratulations!
Jack Phillips now has a really good idea what his Piet would look like with
a Model A instead of the A-65. "Slight resemblance."
More photos, please.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439520#439520
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx144jf_158.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx899jp_130.jpg
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| Subject: | Frustrating day of study |
Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th bearing.
The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the later higher
performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearing
could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets.
As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -Sterling
Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working man',
a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep.
Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do I
need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever branded as
a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I visit Brodhead?
Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine built today represent
a bad choice in homebuilding?
I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can afford
with my resources.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522
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| Subject: | Re: Jack's new Piet |
Both are beautiful!
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439523#439523
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| Subject: | Re: New (Free) Aviation App |
I still get a lot of questions on how to download the Airport Courtesy Cars app
on an iPad. So here are some simple instructions on how to do so. The app is
approaching 1400 car listings with over 6,400 pilots that have downloaded the
app. Glenn
Go to the app store on your iPad,
Click the search box and search for Airport Courtesy Cars,
The search will not show any results, however when the search is complete a bar
of menus will appear along the top of the page,
The very first one on the left says "Ipad only",
Click it to show a drop down menu,
Choose "iPhone only" and Airport Courtesy Cars" will be displayed, and you can
download the app.
--------
Glenn Brasch
RV-9A Flying
1952 Piper Tri-Pacer
Medevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret)
Tucson, Arizona
Owner, www.RVairspace.com and "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone App
www.RVairspace.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439529#439529
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| Subject: | Frustrating day of study |
Andy,
I fully understand the frugal approach. I tend to be that way,
naturally...or, I just like doing everything myself. Money was a bit tight
when I started, but not so tight that I could not afford to build; but my
frugality usually won most arguments.
When I started building my engine in 2004, the crankshaft issues hadn't come
to light. Well, that's not fair...let's not call them "crankshaft issues,"
let's just say a better idea came to the forefront. As you say, there have
been few issues with Piets. That's not the same as saying there have been no
issues. A very good friend of mine, a master auto mechanic, as well as his
dad, had a broken crank early in their test flying. He made it down OK, but
that's a credit to cool nerves, a good location... and some good luck!
That's all it took for me. I ordered the fifth bearing and never regretted
it. You have several years to save for that 5th bearing.
You need to seriously get in tune with William Wynne, if you wish to
continue building a Piet...no matter what engine you choose, but especially
if you choose a Corvair. Get on his website and start reading...
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Garrett
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:20 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study
--> <andy_garrett@live.com>
Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th
bearing. The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the
later higher performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that
the 5th bearing could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in
Piets.
As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena'
-Sterling Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working
man', a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep.
Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do
I need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever
branded as a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I
visit Brodhead? Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine
built today represent a bad choice in homebuilding?
I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can
afford with my resources.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
Thanks Gary.
I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even before.
I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me as I type,
and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks.
I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net). He
took a frugal approach as well.
I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree that the
5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can almost
always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endless resources
and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to find acceptable
risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeballs.
Your response helps a lot. Thanks again.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558
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| Subject: | Model A Engine overheat |
Congratulations, Jack! Wonderful feeling, isn=99t it? Nothing
like taking off for the first time in an airplane you built yourself.
Beautiful job!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fastnaught John
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat
Hello good friends and fellow Pieters.
My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday,
what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address.
The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled
a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running
it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled
the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has
bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless
valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head.
I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely
radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up
to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open
throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils
over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
jack
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
Andy...
I can totally relate to your position!=C2- I too had the same basic thou
ghts about the 5th bearing.=C2- I saw a significant cost in adding the be
aring and not a lot of evidence that it would be an issue in a Pietenpol.
=C2- I thought only guys with the high performance applications would bre
ak them.=C2- Well.....I was wrong.=C2- I was flying along straight and
level in my Pietenpol when the crank broke into two pieces.=C2- I had 37.
7 flight hours and about 10 ground run hours on the engine. =C2- I got lu
cky and just barely made it back to the airport.=C2- I now have a Sport P
erformance Aviation Second generation 5th bearing ( https://flywithspa.com/
corvair-5th-bearing/ ).=C2- I was able to learn from my mistake and hopef
ully you will too.=C2- While many Pietenpols have successfully flown many
hours on Corvair power without a 5th bearing there is now something better
that adds a lot of safety and should be considered mandatory, not optional
if you plan to fly a Corvair. =C2- There are many other areas in the Pie
tenpol build where there are choices that can save money and don't compromi
se safety.=C2- If you plan to use a Corvair you need to follow the recomm
endations of=C2- William Wynne and add the bearing.
I now have another 115 hours +/- since the crank breakage and all is going
smoothly.=C2- I now feel comfortable taking my wife, daughter, father, fr
iends and students up for flights knowing I've built as much safety into my
engine as I know how. =C2-=C2- 150+ hours of Pietenpol flying fun!
Mike Groah
Tulare CA414MV
=C2- From: Andy Garrett <andy_garrett@live.com>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:20 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study
>
Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th b
earing. The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the la
ter higher performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that
the 5th bearing could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in
Piets.
As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena'
-Sterling Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'workin
g man', a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep.
Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. D
o I need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever bra
nded as a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I vi
sit Brodhead? Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine b
uilt today represent a bad choice in homebuilding?
I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I ca
n afford with my resources.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
Andy,
I'm sure that someone will soon throw the "isn't your life worth the extra $50,
$500, $5000, or whatever the amount might be" argument. This is a debate that
can go on forever on every piece of material that goes into your project. Why
would you use Fir or Poplar when Spruce is just a little more. Isn't your hearing
worth a $1200 headset. Why use use non-certified covering. I've had people
tell me that I'm a fool for using latex paint on an airplane because each batch
is not subject to quality testing.What about a 406 ELT, parachute, helmet,
Oakley sunglasses, oxygen, synthetic oil, and on and on.
For me it all boils down to dollars or hassle vs risk. If I don't feel that the
$1200 headset provides a substantial benefit over the $200 set then I will go
with the cheaper one. If I believe that I can substitute Fir for Spruce with
only a small weight penalty then I will go with the Fir. Obviously, I went with
latex. And I did not go with the 5th bearing on my Corvair believing that It
would not be stressed on the Piet like it would be in the KR2s. I'm not flying
my Piet yet but I like the track record of Corvair Piets. Should the Engine
fail, the wood break, the covering rip off, and I plummet to my doom, I'm sure
that will be someome yelling "I told you so you cheap idoit". But I won't be
able to hear them because my headset will have made me deaf.
Malcolm Morrison
www.wienerdogaero.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett@live.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:20:15 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study
Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th bearing.
The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the later higher
performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearing
could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets.
As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -Sterling
Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working man',
a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep.
Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do I
need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever branded as
a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I visit Brodhead?
Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine built today represent
a bad choice in homebuilding?
I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can afford
with my resources.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
Hi Andy
I too worry about the dollar issue. Is it really necesary? I feel that the
crank is the spine of your engine. If you look at the price of the build and
the engine, is the additional 1200 or so really that much more to throw in
the pot? There are ways you can save at least that much by using (for example)
a latex finishing system or maybe hemlock instead of spruce.
Our lives and the lives of our passengers as well as those on the ground depend
upon the reliability of our handy work. Does acceptable risk mean that this
is a good place to economize? That is where you have to decide.
By the way I plan to use a 110HP WW conversion. This as you know is the middle
of HP range. I will not only use the Wessman bearing but a billet crank as
well. If I build this e ngine to the best of my ability, with the best internals,
I can accept the risk and responsibility to others
Glen. Aerial in progress
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, "Andy Garrett" <andy_garrett@live.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Gary.
>
> I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even before.
I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me as I
type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks.
>
> I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net). He
took a frugal approach as well.
>
> I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree that
the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can almost
always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endless resources
and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to find acceptable
risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeballs.
>
> Your response helps a lot. Thanks again.
>
> --------
> Andy Garrett
> 'General Purpose Creative Dude'
> Haysville, Kansas
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
Mike, your response is appreciated and somewhat expected. It echos much of the
published opinion regarding the 5th bearing. Still..., it's the sweeping statements
like "should be considered mandatory" that make me cringe. That means that
if I make a different choice then I will indeed be 'that guy'. It's hard to
dispute a personal experience like yours, though. May I ask what crank you were
using when it broke? Who did the work to it?
Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... That makes me feel vindicated
in my hesitance if not my ultimate decision. How many Piets are flying
with 5th bearings anyway? How many of each type? What issues have they had if
any?
Malcom, love your response! Your points are spot on about the endless debate over
expenditures. I ran into much of that during my boat build. In fact, that is
probably working against me here. I went frugal (not cheap) on pretty much everything
with that and have had no problems.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439564#439564
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
It's easy to miss some of WW's articles, as he has been prolific, especially
on the subject of risk management. Here are 3 appropriate articles worth di
gesting. He has certainly modified my approach:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/10/31/understanding-flying-corvairs-pt-3-my-way-o
r-the-highway/
http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-th
e-wrong-place/
and
http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/13/thought-for-the-day-having-two-achilles-hee
ls/
Gary Boothe
NX308MB
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Andy Garrett <andy_garrett@live.com> wrote:
>
m>
>
> Thanks Gary.
>
> I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even bef
ore. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me a
s I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks.
>
> I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net)
. He took a frugal approach as well.
>
> I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree th
at the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can a
lmost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endless
resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to find
acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeballs
.
>
> Your response helps a lot. Thanks again.
>
> --------
> Andy Garrett
> 'General Purpose Creative Dude'
> Haysville, Kansas
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
One more thought: Wiseman 5th Bearing is $1050. You have 5 or 6 years (mayb
e more) to save up. I don't mean to be blunt, but I don't know how else to s
ay it: By your own description you are not a small man. Even without a passe
nger you will be demanding maximum performance from the entire plane on ever
y take off.
Gary
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 18, 2015, at 4:50 PM, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> It's easy to miss some of WW's articles, as he has been prolific, especial
ly on the subject of risk management. Here are 3 appropriate articles worth d
igesting. He has certainly modified my approach:
>
> http://flycorvair.net/2014/10/31/understanding-flying-corvairs-pt-3-my-way
-or-the-highway/
>
> http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-
the-wrong-place/
>
> and
>
> http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/13/thought-for-the-day-having-two-achilles-h
eels/
>
> Gary Boothe
> NX308MB
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Andy Garrett <andy_garrett@live.com> wrote:
>>
om>
>>
>> Thanks Gary.
>>
>> I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even be
fore. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me
as I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks.
>>
>> I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net
). He took a frugal approach as well.
>>
>> I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree t
hat the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can
almost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endle
ss resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to fi
nd acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyebal
ls.
>>
>> Your response helps a lot. Thanks again.
>>
>> --------
>> Andy Garrett
>> 'General Purpose Creative Dude'
>> Haysville, Kansas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <========================
=====================
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navi===============
==========================
===========; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
>
>
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3
D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
Andy, Shad Bell here.=C2- We are flying=C2-Dad's Corviar Piet that we f
inished in 2006.=C2- We do not have a 5th bearing in ours.=C2- That bei
ng said we did have a crank break in flight around the 60 hour mark, with a
n induced in flight shutdown, due to severe vibration.=C2- The flight tur
ned out uneventful other than landing in a cut wheat field, and a trailer r
ide home.=C2- We currently have about 350 hrs on it with no further incid
ent.=C2- When it comes time to rebuild the engine I intend to install the
5th bearing.=C2- We probably should have done it at the 60 hour mark but
we did not.=C2- After the crank failed and the engine torn down it was v
ery evident that the journals were not radius enough, the corners were fair
ly sharp in the corners (there were some other findings that were inducing
detonation which helped lead to the demise of the 1st crank).=C2- It=C2
-works well like it is but=C2-it defiantly would add piece of mind for
me on those choppy days flying around=C2-Chicago enroute to Brodhead.
Feel Free to contact me offline if you want more details.
Shad Bellaviatorbell@yahoo.com=C2-=C2-
On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 7:57 PM, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.ne
t> wrote:
It's easy to miss some of WW's articles, as he has been prolific, especial
ly on the subject of risk management. Here are 3 appropriate articles worth
digesting. He has certainly modified my approach:
http://flycorvair.net/2014/10/31/understanding-flying-corvairs-pt-3-my-way-
or-the-highway/=C2-
http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-t
he-wrong-place/=C2-=C2-and=C2-http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/13/though
t-for-the-day-having-two-achilles-heels/=C2-
Gary BootheNX308MB
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Andy Garrett <andy_garrett@live.com> wrote:
>
Thanks Gary.
I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even befo
re. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me
as I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks.
I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net).
He took a frugal approach as well.
I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree tha
t the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can
almost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endle
ss resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to f
ind acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeb
alls.
Your response helps a lot. Thanks again.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558
<========================
=====================
http://www.matronics.com/Navi===============
============;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=C2-- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Frustrating day of study |
To answer your question I was using a Chevrolet crank that had been magnafl
uxed, machined and nitrided by the provider recommended by WW.=C2- I felt
at the time this gave me the best possible non-5th bearing crank.=C2-
It really sounds like you've already decided not to use a 5th bearing but I
really do urge you to reconsider.=C2- As Gary mentioned it will be some
time before you need that part and you can save up the cash.=C2- It took
me four and a half years to finish my plane.=C2- Lets say you go with the
$1100 retrofit 5th bearing as Gary did and you need it in three years.=C2
- That's only about $30 a month you'll need to save.=C2- Leave out the
coffee, 32 oz from the mini mart or be the DD instead of having a beer when
out with the guys.=C2- The sacrafice will be no fun but flying your own
Pietenpol without having to worry about the crank will be.
From: Andy Garrett <andy_garrett@live.com>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 4:49 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study
>
Mike, your response is appreciated and somewhat expected. It echos much of
the published opinion regarding the 5th bearing. Still..., it's the sweepin
g statements like "should be considered mandatory" that make me cringe. Tha
t means that if I make a different choice then I will indeed be 'that guy'.
It's hard to dispute a personal experience like yours, though. May I ask w
hat crank you were using when it broke? Who did the work to it?
Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... That makes me fee
l vindicated in my hesitance if not my ultimate decision. How many Piets ar
e flying with 5th bearings anyway? How many of each type? What issues have
they had if any?
Malcom, love your response! Your points are spot on about the endless debat
e over expenditures. I ran into much of that during my boat build. In fact,
that is probably working against me here. I went frugal (not cheap) on pre
tty much everything with that and have had no problems.
--------
Andy Garrett
'General Purpose Creative Dude'
Haysville, Kansas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439564#439564
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Jack's new Piet |
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
Andy, at the risk of being shot at, Here is a rough recap of a study I did
of the Pietenpol accidents in the FAA database since 1969.
*I reviewed the NTSB list of accidents for Pietenpol type aircraft (note
there appear to be some Grega included.) and **looked at the **contributing
causes. Please note there were several cases where there were multiple
causes for the accident, So some accidents have been put into two
categories, IE airspeed INOP and Stall spin, *
*=EF=BD*
* The largest group was Stall/Spin with 16 cases. Here are the situations
described: **=EF=BD*
* 1 steep turns at 500 ft. 1 in pattern (unauthorized use of plane, 0 hours
in type) 2 Low pass first flight 1 loss of power, first flight low turn 1
airspeed INOP, first flight in 6 years, 1 on climbout, DEMO FLIGHT 4 on
climbout (1 fatal) 1 Low turns 2. on final one instruments INOP, one Loss
of power. 1 aerobatics 1 distracted by loose spark plug, loss of power *
* This is far from scientific, but to prod discussion.*
*The stall/ spin accients seem to come from *
* 4 stalls due to low time in Piet/first flight/rusty The only thing
that could be done about Low time/first flight/rusty is make sure you are
ready. I am going to get 2 or 3 hours in a Piper Cub in a couple of weeks.
Then I will mooch rides with a buddy in his Champ until I fly my Piet.
DON'T do what some of these guys did. They spent time building a plane and
not flying. 4 or 5 stalls invovled distraction due to Loss of
power/running rough, Demo flight, or instruments INOP As far as
distraction, Fly the plane! Even when the engine is running rough. Make
sure it is airworthy (Instruments work) and FLY THE PLANE. 3 stalls
during Maneuvering flight. pattern work, Steep turns, Low passes and
aerobatics. Keep your speed up, Lest the ground rise up and smite thee!*
*Among Engine problems causing crashes the main areas are: *
* Mechanical problem 1 Carb needle stuck, 1 Fuel vent blocked-starvation
(wasp nest) 1 Mag problem 1 Loose sparkplug A Good preflight would have
stopped at least two of these. The pilot usually did not "Fly the plane as
far into the crash as possible" Otherwise easy landings were screwed up.
Pilot head up and locked. 1 Carb ice 3 ran out of fuel (Landed OK then
crashed on takeoff) Uh don't take off without gas and Use your carb heat,
Especially if the charts say you are in the icing zone. Today is 90degrees
and humid Here in SA. Good day for ice. 1 unexplained power loss I think
the pilot should be forced to explain the power loss! Actually the
pilot/owners of this plane would not talk to the FAA and the FAA never did
figure out who was flying.*
*OF 9 Stall/Spin accidents only 1 was fatal. a testimony of the design. BTW
this data was collected starting in 1969. The only Non engine
mechanical incidents in the database are: a broken wire due to a
improperly installed turnbuckle. Two incidences of Push/pull elevator
control system failures (On a Grega?) that resulted in two fatalities. and
one hard landing where a bad weld allowed the gear to collapse. *
*One older Pieter recalled a fatality from structural failure in the mid
1960's that was most likely due to negative Gs and no jury struts. *
*Over half of these events happened down low, not up higher. **since the
BRS requires at least 300 feet to deploy that lowers the investment on
return. Also The BRS deploys as much from airspeed as altitude. Not much
airspeed on a Piet.*
*Blue Skies,*
*Steve D*
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
wrote:
> My thoughts are that a Pietenpol, properly flown, lands (or crashes) so
> slow that a BRS would potentially reduce the safety of the aircraft due t
o
> the extra weight, pyrotechnics, etc. Build it light and put that effort
> towards making the fuel system and engine reliable and you will have a
> safer airplane than you would with a BRS. With a 150' landing area,
> precisely flown, a Pietenpol could probably be landed without hurting the
> pilot. WIth a 300' landing area and a little headwind, you can land a Pi
et
> without damaging the plane.
>
> Check the Pietenpol crash statistics, or read Chuck Gantzer's excellent
> summary. Very few people die in Piets. Especially in Kansas, where ther
e
> are more suitable landing areas than non-suitable landing areas. :-)
>
> Speaking of Chuck Gantzer, does anyone know what happened to his site (or
> Chuck himself)?
>
> Steve Ruse
> Aledo, TX (Fort Worth)
>
> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Andy Garrett <andy_garrett@live.com>
> wrote:
>
>> andy_garrett@live.com>
>>
>> Surprisingly, I find no discussions on this subject with a search.
>>
>> Anyone install a ballistic chute on their Piet? Heard of it done?
>>
>> The center section of the wing seems like a descent place to engineer
>> such an installation.
>>
>> Just a curiosity. I am aware that there are those who believe that 'real
>> pilots' don't use BRS, so I'm prepared for some ridicule--hit me.
>>
>> --------
>> Andy Garrett
>> 'General Purpose Creative Dude'
>> Haysville, Kansas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439491#439491
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> enpol-List" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
Bill, I did read the posts, but simply missed that they were all called
matronics. I was afraid that I was missing some good information.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> billspiet@sympatico.ca>
>
> The older system was called Norman. :)
>
> But seriously, Steve, did you actually read the posts?
> All of the links posted are from Matronics. The List server was and is
> Matronics, since 1998 or so. In 2006, the new interface was introduced,
> called the Forum. The old interface has continued to operate, in
> conjunction with the newer interface. The content is the same - just a
> slightly different format.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
> > The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called?
> >
> >
> > Steve D
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439517#439517
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
Thanks, Bill.
Ray
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 18, 2015, at 5:45 AM, Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Ray,
>
> My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the messages
that have been posted since the time that it became operational (almost 9 years
ago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely require someone taking
the time to (manually?) add all of the archived posts. I sure wouldn't want
to be saddled with that task.
> In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a different
format. Here's the link to the old information page for the Pietenpol
List, with various links to access the archived information.
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List
> Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very top
of the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't explicitly stated
that the newer Forum can only access messages that have been posted after
April 2006.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439505#439505
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: BRS in a Piet? |
Jack: if a BRS for a Piet costs $5000 installed, it would increase the asking price
of my Air Camper by 50%, not 33%. Most Piet enthusiasts that I know would
rather save the $5000 to buy an overhauled A65 to power the rebuilt crashed
hulk rather than spend it on a 'chute ;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439577#439577
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... |
I tell ya he looked pretty wild running out there with that hat and no shirt.
--------
Building steel fuselage aircamper.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439579#439579
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