---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/18/15: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:45 AM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Bill Church) 2. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... (Steven Dortch) 3. 10:59 AM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (Fastnaught John) 4. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steven Dortch) 5. 12:51 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (Barry Davis) 6. 01:03 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (AircamperN11MS) 7. 01:09 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steve Ruse) 8. 01:33 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (JammerRv8@aol.com) 9. 01:39 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Bill Church) 10. 01:50 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Bill Church) 11. 02:10 PM - Jack's new Piet (Bill Church) 12. 02:20 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Gary Boothe) 13. 02:20 PM - Frustrating day of study (Andy Garrett) 14. 02:25 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Andy Garrett) 15. 02:54 PM - Re: New (Free) Aviation App (gbrasch) 16. 03:07 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Gary Boothe) 17. 03:47 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Andy Garrett) 18. 04:06 PM - Re: Model A Engine overheat (Jack Philips) 19. 04:16 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Michael Groah) 20. 04:22 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (gliderx5@comcast.net) 21. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (glenschweizer@yahoo.com) 22. 04:50 PM - Re: Frustrating day of study (Andy Garrett) 23. 04:51 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (Gary Boothe) 24. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (Gary Boothe) 25. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (shad bell) 26. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Frustrating day of study (Michael Groah) 27. 07:03 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Michael Groah) 28. 08:26 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steven Dortch) 29. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: BRS in a Piet? (Steven Dortch) 30. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: BRS in a Piet? (Ray Krause) 31. 10:01 PM - Re: BRS in a Piet? (taildrags) 32. 10:19 PM - Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... (biplan53) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet? From: "Bill Church" Ray, My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the messages that have been posted since the time that it became operational (almost 9 years ago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely require someone taking the time to (manually?) add all of the archived posts. I sure wouldn't want to be saddled with that task. In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a different format. Here's the link to the old information page for the Pietenpol List, with various links to access the archived information. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very top of the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't explicitly stated that the newer Forum can only access messages that have been posted after April 2006. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439505#439505 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... From: Steven Dortch Is he a Putin wannabe? LOL On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 11:24 PM, biplan53 wrote: > > I was standing there in camouflaged coveralls and I can confirm how cold > it was. I think we can nickname Kevin Iron man. > > -------- > Building steel fuselage aircamper. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439501#439501 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:12 AM PST US From: Fastnaught John Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat Hello good friends and fellow Pieters. My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated. jack ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet? From: Steven Dortch The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called? Steve D On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Bill Church wrote: > billspiet@sympatico.ca> > > Ray, > > My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the > messages that have been posted since the time that it became operational > (almost 9 years ago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely > require someone taking the time to (manually?) add all of the archived > posts. I sure wouldn't want to be saddled with that task. > In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a > different format. Here's the link to the old information page for the > Pietenpol List, with various links to access the archived information. > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List > Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very > top of the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't > explicitly stated that the newer Forum can only access messages that have > been posted after April 2006. > > Bill C. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439505#439505 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:07 PM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat Check the timing and/or the flow of coolant thru the system. Bary From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fastnaught John Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat Hello good friends and fellow Pieters. My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated. jack ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:26 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A Engine overheat From: "AircamperN11MS" Your plane is beautiful. Now that I have that out of the way. I am not that familiar with the Model A installation. But I am wondering if you have a thermostat or even a flow restrictor like a flat washer or something of the sorts. It sounds to me like the water isn't staying in the radiator long enough to cool. If you have an inferred thermometer you can check the temperature differential between the lower radiator hose and the upper hose. The hot water should leave the bottom of the engine and the cool water should leave the top of the radiator and back into the engine. On the Diesel equipment that I design we look for 30 degree differential between the lower and upper hoses. One other thing to look at is to make sure the water pump is turning the proper direction. I hope this gives you some kind of starting point to work with. Good luck, oh and again. You have a beautiful looking airplane. Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439513#439513 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet? From: Steve Ruse My thoughts are that a Pietenpol, properly flown, lands (or crashes) so slow that a BRS would potentially reduce the safety of the aircraft due to the extra weight, pyrotechnics, etc. Build it light and put that effort towards making the fuel system and engine reliable and you will have a safer airplane than you would with a BRS. With a 150' landing area, precisely flown, a Pietenpol could probably be landed without hurting the pilot. WIth a 300' landing area and a little headwind, you can land a Piet without damaging the plane. Check the Pietenpol crash statistics, or read Chuck Gantzer's excellent summary. Very few people die in Piets. Especially in Kansas, where there are more suitable landing areas than non-suitable landing areas. :-) Speaking of Chuck Gantzer, does anyone know what happened to his site (or Chuck himself)? Steve Ruse Aledo, TX (Fort Worth) On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Andy Garrett wrote: > andy_garrett@live.com> > > Surprisingly, I find no discussions on this subject with a search. > > Anyone install a ballistic chute on their Piet? Heard of it done? > > The center section of the wing seems like a descent place to engineer such > an installation. > > Just a curiosity. I am aware that there are those who believe that 'real > pilots' don't use BRS, so I'm prepared for some ridicule--hit me. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439491#439491 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:15 PM PST US From: JammerRv8@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat do you have a pressure relief radiator cap or is it direct vent. Jeff martin In a message dated 3/18/2015 2:02:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fastnaught@windstream.net writes: Hello good friends and fellow Pieters. My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearing s not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats , and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp rem ains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210 -215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated. jack ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet? From: "Bill Church" The older system was called Norman. :) But seriously, Steve, did you actually read the posts? All of the links posted are from Matronics. The List server was and is Matronics, since 1998 or so. In 2006, the new interface was introduced, called the Forum. The old interface has continued to operate, in conjunction with the newer interface. The content is the same - just a slightly different format. Bill C. > The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called? > > > Steve D Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439517#439517 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:54 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet? From: "Bill Church" I just read my last post. The tone seems a bit harsh. That wasn't my intent. My apologies, Steve. BC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439518#439518 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:18 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet From: "Bill Church" Didn't want to post this in response to Jack Fastnaught's question regarding engine temperatures, since I have no useful information to offer in that regard, so here's a new thread. Beautiful work, Jack. Congratulations! Jack Phillips now has a really good idea what his Piet would look like with a Model A instead of the A-65. "Slight resemblance." More photos, please. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439520#439520 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx144jf_158.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx899jp_130.jpg ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:27 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet Mike Groah, too. 3 beautiful Piets, all similar, but different somehow...ah, yes, I can see it now, ...(someone got a finish?) Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet --> Didn't want to post this in response to Jack Fastnaught's question regarding engine temperatures, since I have no useful information to offer in that regard, so here's a new thread. Beautiful work, Jack. Congratulations! Jack Phillips now has a really good idea what his Piet would look like with a Model A instead of the A-65. "Slight resemblance." More photos, please. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439520#439520 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx144jf_158.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/nx899jp_130.jpg ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study From: "Andy Garrett" Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th bearing. The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the later higher performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearing could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets. As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -Sterling Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working man', a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep. Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do I need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever branded as a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I visit Brodhead? Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine built today represent a bad choice in homebuilding? I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can afford with my resources. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet From: "Andy Garrett" Both are beautiful! -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439523#439523 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New (Free) Aviation App From: "gbrasch" I still get a lot of questions on how to download the Airport Courtesy Cars app on an iPad. So here are some simple instructions on how to do so. The app is approaching 1400 car listings with over 6,400 pilots that have downloaded the app. Glenn Go to the app store on your iPad, Click the search box and search for Airport Courtesy Cars, The search will not show any results, however when the search is complete a bar of menus will appear along the top of the page, The very first one on the left says "Ipad only", Click it to show a drop down menu, Choose "iPhone only" and Airport Courtesy Cars" will be displayed, and you can download the app. -------- Glenn Brasch RV-9A Flying 1952 Piper Tri-Pacer Medevac Helicopter Pilot (Ret) Tucson, Arizona Owner, www.RVairspace.com and "Airport Courtesy Cars" Smart Phone App www.RVairspace.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439529#439529 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:33 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study Andy, I fully understand the frugal approach. I tend to be that way, naturally...or, I just like doing everything myself. Money was a bit tight when I started, but not so tight that I could not afford to build; but my frugality usually won most arguments. When I started building my engine in 2004, the crankshaft issues hadn't come to light. Well, that's not fair...let's not call them "crankshaft issues," let's just say a better idea came to the forefront. As you say, there have been few issues with Piets. That's not the same as saying there have been no issues. A very good friend of mine, a master auto mechanic, as well as his dad, had a broken crank early in their test flying. He made it down OK, but that's a credit to cool nerves, a good location... and some good luck! That's all it took for me. I ordered the fifth bearing and never regretted it. You have several years to save for that 5th bearing. You need to seriously get in tune with William Wynne, if you wish to continue building a Piet...no matter what engine you choose, but especially if you choose a Corvair. Get on his website and start reading... Gary Boothe NX308MB -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Andy Garrett Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study --> Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th bearing. The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the later higher performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearing could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets. As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -Sterling Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working man', a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep. Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do I need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever branded as a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I visit Brodhead? Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine built today represent a bad choice in homebuilding? I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can afford with my resources. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:47:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study From: "Andy Garrett" Thanks Gary. I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even before. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me as I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks. I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net). He took a frugal approach as well. I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree that the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can almost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endless resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to find acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeballs. Your response helps a lot. Thanks again. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:12 PM PST US From: "Jack Philips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat Congratulations, Jack! Wonderful feeling, isn=99t it? Nothing like taking off for the first time in an airplane you built yourself. Beautiful job! Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fastnaught John Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Model A Engine overheat Hello good friends and fellow Pieters. My project is finish and inspected. I had my first flight yesterday, what a thrill. Of course there are a few things to address. The most important one is the engine overheat problem. I have overhauled a Model A and it runs great. I have about 10 hours on the engine running it on the ground. I have overhauled and modified the oil pump, drilled the crankshaft for better oiling of the mains and rod bearings (it has bearings not babitts), had the crank balanced, installed stainless valves and seats, and it has a Winfield high compression head. I=99m running a Texas T water pump and have a Forrest Lovely radiator. Hopefully I have covered the installation. At idle or even up to about 1300 RPM=99s the temp remains around 170-190F. At open throttle and after a few minutes the temp climbs to 210-215 and boils over. After 3 trips around the field yesterday it was 220F. Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated. jack ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:19 PM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study Andy... I can totally relate to your position!=C2- I too had the same basic thou ghts about the 5th bearing.=C2- I saw a significant cost in adding the be aring and not a lot of evidence that it would be an issue in a Pietenpol. =C2- I thought only guys with the high performance applications would bre ak them.=C2- Well.....I was wrong.=C2- I was flying along straight and level in my Pietenpol when the crank broke into two pieces.=C2- I had 37. 7 flight hours and about 10 ground run hours on the engine. =C2- I got lu cky and just barely made it back to the airport.=C2- I now have a Sport P erformance Aviation Second generation 5th bearing ( https://flywithspa.com/ corvair-5th-bearing/ ).=C2- I was able to learn from my mistake and hopef ully you will too.=C2- While many Pietenpols have successfully flown many hours on Corvair power without a 5th bearing there is now something better that adds a lot of safety and should be considered mandatory, not optional if you plan to fly a Corvair. =C2- There are many other areas in the Pie tenpol build where there are choices that can save money and don't compromi se safety.=C2- If you plan to use a Corvair you need to follow the recomm endations of=C2- William Wynne and add the bearing. I now have another 115 hours +/- since the crank breakage and all is going smoothly.=C2- I now feel comfortable taking my wife, daughter, father, fr iends and students up for flights knowing I've built as much safety into my engine as I know how. =C2-=C2- 150+ hours of Pietenpol flying fun! Mike Groah Tulare CA414MV =C2- From: Andy Garrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 2:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study > Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th b earing. The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the la ter higher performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearing could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets. As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -Sterling Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'workin g man', a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep. Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. D o I need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever bra nded as a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I vi sit Brodhead? Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine b uilt today represent a bad choice in homebuilding? I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I ca n afford with my resources. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522 S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:50 PM PST US From: gliderx5@comcast.net Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study Andy, I'm sure that someone will soon throw the "isn't your life worth the extra $50, $500, $5000, or whatever the amount might be" argument. This is a debate that can go on forever on every piece of material that goes into your project. Why would you use Fir or Poplar when Spruce is just a little more. Isn't your hearing worth a $1200 headset. Why use use non-certified covering. I've had people tell me that I'm a fool for using latex paint on an airplane because each batch is not subject to quality testing.What about a 406 ELT, parachute, helmet, Oakley sunglasses, oxygen, synthetic oil, and on and on. For me it all boils down to dollars or hassle vs risk. If I don't feel that the $1200 headset provides a substantial benefit over the $200 set then I will go with the cheaper one. If I believe that I can substitute Fir for Spruce with only a small weight penalty then I will go with the Fir. Obviously, I went with latex. And I did not go with the 5th bearing on my Corvair believing that It would not be stressed on the Piet like it would be in the KR2s. I'm not flying my Piet yet but I like the track record of Corvair Piets. Should the Engine fail, the wood break, the covering rip off, and I plummet to my doom, I'm sure that will be someome yelling "I told you so you cheap idoit". But I won't be able to hear them because my headset will have made me deaf. Malcolm Morrison www.wienerdogaero.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Garrett" Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 5:20:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frustrating day of study Piets flew with Corvairs for 48 years or so before the arrival of the 5th bearing. The search function reveals that some have hypothesized that the later higher performance applications of the Corvair exposed a weakness that the 5th bearing could strengthen--a weakness rarely if ever experienced in Piets. As a $16 per hour hospital security officer trying to 'get into the arena' -Sterling Hayden, and build the airframe which was designed for the 'working man', a few grand for a 5th bearing is steep. Corvairs earned their coveted reputations in Piets, without 5th bearings. Do I need one? Will my TBO be cut in half without one? Will I be forever branded as a 'corner-cutter' in this community? Will I be 'that guy' when I visit Brodhead? Will others snicker behind my back? Does a 4-bearing engine built today represent a bad choice in homebuilding? I just don't want to make a fool of myself as I build an airplane that I can afford with my resources. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439522#439522 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study From: glenschweizer@yahoo.com Hi Andy I too worry about the dollar issue. Is it really necesary? I feel that the crank is the spine of your engine. If you look at the price of the build and the engine, is the additional 1200 or so really that much more to throw in the pot? There are ways you can save at least that much by using (for example) a latex finishing system or maybe hemlock instead of spruce. Our lives and the lives of our passengers as well as those on the ground depend upon the reliability of our handy work. Does acceptable risk mean that this is a good place to economize? That is where you have to decide. By the way I plan to use a 110HP WW conversion. This as you know is the middle of HP range. I will not only use the Wessman bearing but a billet crank as well. If I build this e ngine to the best of my ability, with the best internals, I can accept the risk and responsibility to others Glen. Aerial in progress Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, "Andy Garrett" wrote: > > > Thanks Gary. > > I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even before. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me as I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks. > > I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net). He took a frugal approach as well. > > I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree that the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can almost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endless resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to find acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeballs. > > Your response helps a lot. Thanks again. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:23 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study From: "Andy Garrett" Mike, your response is appreciated and somewhat expected. It echos much of the published opinion regarding the 5th bearing. Still..., it's the sweeping statements like "should be considered mandatory" that make me cringe. That means that if I make a different choice then I will indeed be 'that guy'. It's hard to dispute a personal experience like yours, though. May I ask what crank you were using when it broke? Who did the work to it? Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... That makes me feel vindicated in my hesitance if not my ultimate decision. How many Piets are flying with 5th bearings anyway? How many of each type? What issues have they had if any? Malcom, love your response! Your points are spot on about the endless debate over expenditures. I ran into much of that during my boat build. In fact, that is probably working against me here. I went frugal (not cheap) on pretty much everything with that and have had no problems. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439564#439564 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:19 PM PST US From: Gary Boothe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study It's easy to miss some of WW's articles, as he has been prolific, especially on the subject of risk management. Here are 3 appropriate articles worth di gesting. He has certainly modified my approach: http://flycorvair.net/2014/10/31/understanding-flying-corvairs-pt-3-my-way-o r-the-highway/ http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-th e-wrong-place/ and http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/13/thought-for-the-day-having-two-achilles-hee ls/ Gary Boothe NX308MB Sent from my iPad > On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Andy Garrett wrote: > m> > > Thanks Gary. > > I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even bef ore. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me a s I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks. > > I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net) . He took a frugal approach as well. > > I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree th at the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can a lmost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endless resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to find acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeballs .. > > Your response helps a lot. Thanks again. > > -------- > Andy Garrett > 'General Purpose Creative Dude' > Haysville, Kansas > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558 > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:11 PM PST US From: Gary Boothe Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study One more thought: Wiseman 5th Bearing is $1050. You have 5 or 6 years (mayb e more) to save up. I don't mean to be blunt, but I don't know how else to s ay it: By your own description you are not a small man. Even without a passe nger you will be demanding maximum performance from the entire plane on ever y take off. Gary Sent from my iPad > On Mar 18, 2015, at 4:50 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > > It's easy to miss some of WW's articles, as he has been prolific, especial ly on the subject of risk management. Here are 3 appropriate articles worth d igesting. He has certainly modified my approach: > > http://flycorvair.net/2014/10/31/understanding-flying-corvairs-pt-3-my-way -or-the-highway/ > > http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in- the-wrong-place/ > > and > > http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/13/thought-for-the-day-having-two-achilles-h eels/ > > Gary Boothe > NX308MB > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Andy Garrett wrote: >> om> >> >> Thanks Gary. >> >> I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even be fore. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me as I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks. >> >> I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net ). He took a frugal approach as well. >> >> I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree t hat the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can almost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endle ss resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to fi nd acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyebal ls. >> >> Your response helps a lot. Thanks again. >> >> -------- >> Andy Garrett >> 'General Purpose Creative Dude' >> Haysville, Kansas >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558 >> >> >> >> >> >> <======================== ===================== >> http://www.matronics.com/Navi=============== ========================== ===========; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > > 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:37 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study Andy, Shad Bell here.=C2- We are flying=C2-Dad's Corviar Piet that we f inished in 2006.=C2- We do not have a 5th bearing in ours.=C2- That bei ng said we did have a crank break in flight around the 60 hour mark, with a n induced in flight shutdown, due to severe vibration.=C2- The flight tur ned out uneventful other than landing in a cut wheat field, and a trailer r ide home.=C2- We currently have about 350 hrs on it with no further incid ent.=C2- When it comes time to rebuild the engine I intend to install the 5th bearing.=C2- We probably should have done it at the 60 hour mark but we did not.=C2- After the crank failed and the engine torn down it was v ery evident that the journals were not radius enough, the corners were fair ly sharp in the corners (there were some other findings that were inducing detonation which helped lead to the demise of the 1st crank).=C2- It=C2 -works well like it is but=C2-it defiantly would add piece of mind for me on those choppy days flying around=C2-Chicago enroute to Brodhead. Feel Free to contact me offline if you want more details. Shad Bellaviatorbell@yahoo.com=C2-=C2- On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 7:57 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: It's easy to miss some of WW's articles, as he has been prolific, especial ly on the subject of risk management. Here are 3 appropriate articles worth digesting. He has certainly modified my approach: http://flycorvair.net/2014/10/31/understanding-flying-corvairs-pt-3-my-way- or-the-highway/=C2- http://flycorvair.net/2013/04/20/risk-management-judgement-error-money-in-t he-wrong-place/=C2-=C2-and=C2-http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/13/though t-for-the-day-having-two-achilles-heels/=C2- Gary BootheNX308MB Sent from my iPad On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Andy Garrett wrote: > Thanks Gary. I've been reading Mr. Wynn's amterial since I began this pursuit--even befo re. I have the most recent edition of his conversion manual in front of me as I type, and I've been waiting patiently for a DVD for a few weeks. I am inspired by John Franklin's engine build (detailed on Flycorvair.net). He took a frugal approach as well. I guess I'm doing my due dilligence on risk management. I tend to agree tha t the 5th bearing is indeed a better way of doing things. A better way can almost always be had at the other end of spending spree. The guy with endle ss resources and motivation will surely find the BEST way. I just want to f ind acceptable risk and performance without ending up in debt up to my eyeb alls. Your response helps a lot. Thanks again. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439558#439558 <======================== ===================== http://www.matronics.com/Navi=============== ============;=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:28 PM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study To answer your question I was using a Chevrolet crank that had been magnafl uxed, machined and nitrided by the provider recommended by WW.=C2- I felt at the time this gave me the best possible non-5th bearing crank.=C2- It really sounds like you've already decided not to use a 5th bearing but I really do urge you to reconsider.=C2- As Gary mentioned it will be some time before you need that part and you can save up the cash.=C2- It took me four and a half years to finish my plane.=C2- Lets say you go with the $1100 retrofit 5th bearing as Gary did and you need it in three years.=C2 - That's only about $30 a month you'll need to save.=C2- Leave out the coffee, 32 oz from the mini mart or be the DD instead of having a beer when out with the guys.=C2- The sacrafice will be no fun but flying your own Pietenpol without having to worry about the crank will be. From: Andy Garrett To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 4:49 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frustrating day of study > Mike, your response is appreciated and somewhat expected. It echos much of the published opinion regarding the 5th bearing. Still..., it's the sweepin g statements like "should be considered mandatory" that make me cringe. Tha t means that if I make a different choice then I will indeed be 'that guy'. It's hard to dispute a personal experience like yours, though. May I ask w hat crank you were using when it broke? Who did the work to it? Still, 48 years of success on who knows how many Piets... That makes me fee l vindicated in my hesitance if not my ultimate decision. How many Piets ar e flying with 5th bearings anyway? How many of each type? What issues have they had if any? Malcom, love your response! Your points are spot on about the endless debat e over expenditures. I ran into much of that during my boat build. In fact, that is probably working against me here. I went frugal (not cheap) on pre tty much everything with that and have had no problems. -------- Andy Garrett 'General Purpose Creative Dude' Haysville, Kansas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439564#439564 S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:00 PM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jack's new Piet ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: BRS in a Piet? From: Steven Dortch Andy, at the risk of being shot at, Here is a rough recap of a study I did of the Pietenpol accidents in the FAA database since 1969. *I reviewed the NTSB list of accidents for Pietenpol type aircraft (note there appear to be some Grega included.) and **looked at the **contributing causes. Please note there were several cases where there were multiple causes for the accident, So some accidents have been put into two categories, IE airspeed INOP and Stall spin, * *=EF=BD* * The largest group was Stall/Spin with 16 cases. Here are the situations described: **=EF=BD* * 1 steep turns at 500 ft. 1 in pattern (unauthorized use of plane, 0 hours in type) 2 Low pass first flight 1 loss of power, first flight low turn 1 airspeed INOP, first flight in 6 years, 1 on climbout, DEMO FLIGHT 4 on climbout (1 fatal) 1 Low turns 2. on final one instruments INOP, one Loss of power. 1 aerobatics 1 distracted by loose spark plug, loss of power * * This is far from scientific, but to prod discussion.* *The stall/ spin accients seem to come from * * 4 stalls due to low time in Piet/first flight/rusty The only thing that could be done about Low time/first flight/rusty is make sure you are ready. I am going to get 2 or 3 hours in a Piper Cub in a couple of weeks. Then I will mooch rides with a buddy in his Champ until I fly my Piet. DON'T do what some of these guys did. They spent time building a plane and not flying. 4 or 5 stalls invovled distraction due to Loss of power/running rough, Demo flight, or instruments INOP As far as distraction, Fly the plane! Even when the engine is running rough. Make sure it is airworthy (Instruments work) and FLY THE PLANE. 3 stalls during Maneuvering flight. pattern work, Steep turns, Low passes and aerobatics. Keep your speed up, Lest the ground rise up and smite thee!* *Among Engine problems causing crashes the main areas are: * * Mechanical problem 1 Carb needle stuck, 1 Fuel vent blocked-starvation (wasp nest) 1 Mag problem 1 Loose sparkplug A Good preflight would have stopped at least two of these. The pilot usually did not "Fly the plane as far into the crash as possible" Otherwise easy landings were screwed up. Pilot head up and locked. 1 Carb ice 3 ran out of fuel (Landed OK then crashed on takeoff) Uh don't take off without gas and Use your carb heat, Especially if the charts say you are in the icing zone. Today is 90degrees and humid Here in SA. Good day for ice. 1 unexplained power loss I think the pilot should be forced to explain the power loss! Actually the pilot/owners of this plane would not talk to the FAA and the FAA never did figure out who was flying.* *OF 9 Stall/Spin accidents only 1 was fatal. a testimony of the design. BTW this data was collected starting in 1969. The only Non engine mechanical incidents in the database are: a broken wire due to a improperly installed turnbuckle. Two incidences of Push/pull elevator control system failures (On a Grega?) that resulted in two fatalities. and one hard landing where a bad weld allowed the gear to collapse. * *One older Pieter recalled a fatality from structural failure in the mid 1960's that was most likely due to negative Gs and no jury struts. * *Over half of these events happened down low, not up higher. **since the BRS requires at least 300 feet to deploy that lowers the investment on return. Also The BRS deploys as much from airspeed as altitude. Not much airspeed on a Piet.* *Blue Skies,* *Steve D* On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Steve Ruse wrote: > My thoughts are that a Pietenpol, properly flown, lands (or crashes) so > slow that a BRS would potentially reduce the safety of the aircraft due t o > the extra weight, pyrotechnics, etc. Build it light and put that effort > towards making the fuel system and engine reliable and you will have a > safer airplane than you would with a BRS. With a 150' landing area, > precisely flown, a Pietenpol could probably be landed without hurting the > pilot. WIth a 300' landing area and a little headwind, you can land a Pi et > without damaging the plane. > > Check the Pietenpol crash statistics, or read Chuck Gantzer's excellent > summary. Very few people die in Piets. Especially in Kansas, where ther e > are more suitable landing areas than non-suitable landing areas. :-) > > Speaking of Chuck Gantzer, does anyone know what happened to his site (or > Chuck himself)? > > Steve Ruse > Aledo, TX (Fort Worth) > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Andy Garrett > wrote: > >> andy_garrett@live.com> >> >> Surprisingly, I find no discussions on this subject with a search. >> >> Anyone install a ballistic chute on their Piet? Heard of it done? >> >> The center section of the wing seems like a descent place to engineer >> such an installation. >> >> Just a curiosity. I am aware that there are those who believe that 'real >> pilots' don't use BRS, so I'm prepared for some ridicule--hit me. >> >> -------- >> Andy Garrett >> 'General Purpose Creative Dude' >> Haysville, Kansas >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439491#439491 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> br> enpol-List" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> _blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > * > =========== .matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet? From: Steven Dortch Bill, I did read the posts, but simply missed that they were all called matronics. I was afraid that I was missing some good information. Blue Skies, Steve D On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Bill Church wrote: > billspiet@sympatico.ca> > > The older system was called Norman. :) > > But seriously, Steve, did you actually read the posts? > All of the links posted are from Matronics. The List server was and is > Matronics, since 1998 or so. In 2006, the new interface was introduced, > called the Forum. The old interface has continued to operate, in > conjunction with the newer interface. The content is the same - just a > slightly different format. > > Bill C. > > > > The current list server is Matronics. what was the older system called? > > > > > > Steve D > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439517#439517 > > -- Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:47 PM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet? Thanks, Bill. Ray Sent from my iPad > On Mar 18, 2015, at 5:45 AM, Bill Church wrote: > > > Ray, > > My assumption is that the newer Forum Interface can only access the messages that have been posted since the time that it became operational (almost 9 years ago). Adding all of the previous archives would likely require someone taking the time to (manually?) add all of the archived posts. I sure wouldn't want to be saddled with that task. > In any case, the old archived materials are all available, just through a different format. Here's the link to the old information page for the Pietenpol List, with various links to access the archived information. > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?Pietenpol-List > Of course, all of this information is provided in the message at the very top of the Forum page (Official Pietenpol-List FAQ). It just isn't explicitly stated that the newer Forum can only access messages that have been posted after April 2006. > > Bill C. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439505#439505 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: BRS in a Piet? From: "taildrags" Jack: if a BRS for a Piet costs $5000 installed, it would increase the asking price of my Air Camper by 50%, not 33%. Most Piet enthusiasts that I know would rather save the $5000 to buy an overhauled A65 to power the rebuilt crashed hulk rather than spend it on a 'chute ;o) -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=439577#439577 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Wind Chill - 120mph, 35 degrees, raining, shirtless.... From: "biplan53" I tell ya he looked pretty wild running out there with that hat and no shirt. -------- Building steel fuselage aircamper. 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