Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:18 AM - Re: weight and balance studying. (William Wynne)
2. 05:28 AM - Re: Re: engine failure (Jack Philips)
3. 06:42 AM - Re: engine failure (AircamperN11MS)
4. 06:44 AM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Bill Church)
5. 08:20 AM - Re: engine failure (jarheadpilot82)
6. 09:40 AM - Re: Jack's new Piet (bender)
7. 01:40 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Jeff Boatright)
8. 03:41 PM - Re: steel tube fuselage (stearmandriver)
9. 10:18 PM - Re: Corvair College #33 Update (David McBride)
10. 11:39 PM - Re: Corvair College #33 Update (William Wynne)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: weight and balance studying. |
David,
Terry Hand's project is nearly Identical to what you propose. If you search the archives and look at posts by "Jarheadpilot82" he has put up some info on it. It is what you propose with the only addition of a door in the front cockpit. You can see a photo of it at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/22/terry-hands-story-our-own-honor-flight/
Which is also a moving story about Terry's father who was a Seabee in WWII.
.
Without getting a calculator out, I will say your numbers look in the ball park.
In another week or so I am going to have a sharp set of numbers for Terry's
project fuse/mount/gear/engine, as we are going to have it on display at CC#33.
You can fine tune your calculation from there. I will be glad to go over your
numbers in comparative detail then. Also keep in mind that Ryan Mueller can
assist with the CG program we wrote to derive the max pilot weight to stay inside
the aft limit of any particular Pietenpol. Just a thought, If you are 135#,
and thinking of welded cabanes, target a number like 15.5" with you in the plane,
so that you can cover another pilot who might weigh a lot more in the plane.
Running the calculation or letting Ryan do it will give exact numbers on
this.
.
Having a Plane which in CG is actually "boring" compared to having one out the
aft limit or with the gear too far back. Ryan and I did the project, and many
people assisted, in hope that people would do exactly what you are doing, planning
ahead. -ww,
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440061#440061
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Subject: | Re: engine failure |
Bobka's Law, from the inimitable Chris Bobka, applies here: "If it doesn't
sound right on the ground, it isn't likely to sound better in the air".
Get-there-itis is a deadly disease and it will kill you.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William
Wynne
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:44 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure
--> <WilliamTCA@aol.com>
Scott,
I know you are friends with those guys, and I like them also. But just to be
accurate, with hope that others may learn something, let me point out that
the terrain that those guys we flying over that day, particularly the last
2/3s of the last leg were pretty flat, and are almost all farmland served by
rotating irrigation systems which are usually on very flat ground. From
their report:
.
Peter began experiencing engine trouble on the flight from Tucumcari, New
Mexico to Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying as far as Guymon, but the
airplane was damaged on landing making it impossible for the airplane to
continue any further.
.
To be fair, their first days of the trip covered 1,200 miles over very bad
terrain. however on the last day they were already at the west Texas
grasslands. Tucumcari NM and Guymon OK are only about 160 miles apart, most
of what is between them is very flat Texas. The cities are connected in a
dead straight line by a 4 lane highway, route 54. The halfway point is
Dalhart TX, which has a large municipal airport, and the 3/4 mark is
Stratford TX, which has a paved 3,000' airport right next to 54.
.
.
I spoke to these guys at Oshkosh 72 hours later, and looked at their photos.
They described to me that the plane was not running perfectly before this
leg. But critically, I listened to the description of the last leg by the
pilot, and he described having a long deteriorating condition on that leg,
before he got to the 1/2 point. It is my belief that he was fixated on
getting to the planned rendezvous with the ground crew at Guymon, and
because of this he overflew the airports at Dalhart and Stratford. He may
not have known about them, and that is why it is critical to know what is on
the route. Either way, there was the highway, and it is far better to make a
precautionary landing on a wide road than a forced one en route to an
airport. Lesson: Once your plane is not running or flying right, your
ability to develop an alternative plan, to visually see little airports, or
consider a precautionary landing is greatly reduced.
.
.
Scott, I agree he did a fair job landing, even though the plane ended up on
it's back. How can I say that? because I did the weight and balance on the
plane before it was covered, and I told them it would have a very aft CG,
and the landing gear was too far back for a plane with brakes. They elected
to ignore this. That was the mistake point that put the plane on it's back,
not what the pilot was doing in Guymon. Many skilled pilots would have done
the same thing, because the plane had the gear too far back. Lesson: When I
privately point out that your gear is too far back, and you think I am
kidding, I might later publicly use the example in hopes that some one else
might learn from it. I hope when they rebuilt the plane that they corrected
the wing position, but I am going to guess they did not.
.
.
Before anyone gets upset about plain talk about a specific accident, let me
point out the following: I know the builder; I saw the plane at several
stages of the building, including in CA; I know the engine model very well,
I know the airframe well; I personally spoke to the pilot after the
accident; and I hold a degree in accident investigation from Embry-Riddle.
These things don't make me better than anyone else, but they do qualify me
to offer some intelligent commentary on the event. Scott knows these guys
also, and also has good input to learn from. Almost no talk about accidents
on the internet comes from personally informed people like Scott and I.
There is something that could be gained here which is not available in most
comments elsewhere.
.
.
For the record, the issue was with the Carb, which is the same one that came
on a Continental, so you might want to call it a carb failure, but it isn't
really accurate nor informative to call it an engine failure. If there was a
guy out there flying a continental who dismissed the potential to learn
anything because he thought this was a Corvair problem, he is being foolish,
because he is likely flying an identical carb.
.
If anyone would like to imply that a Corvair couldn't have made the flight,
Please look at this month's Kitplanes, The Corvair powered KR-2S pictured at
Chino CA, lives in Eastern PA, and was built by this guy:
http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/27/kr-2s-at-700-hours-joe-horton/ It flew out
and back in the same three day weekend. .ww.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440054#440054
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Subject: | Re: engine failure |
Good morning All,
I understood that the day of the flight started in Socorro New Mexico. I have
flown that route and know that you must get to about 8000 feet to clear the mountains
to the east. That is what I was referring to about the rough terrain.
I don't know at what point the engine started running rough but just wanted
to make comment that he did good to get it down at an airport. We all know that
with a complete engine failure we won't be gliding very far under the best
of conditions. That is all I meant.
I made the first flight of the plane for these guys and I never felt the gear was
too far back. Since I have flown the plane, the owners changed from a rudder
bar and heel brakes to rudder pedals and toe brakes. I am sure the toe brakes
added to the ability to apply more braking power then what was needed at the
time of that landing. Hard to say since I was not there.
As Oscar mentioned. Farm fields can put planes on their back as well.
It is never just one thing that causes an accident. There is usually a chain of
events that cause an accident or incident. Leave out just one of the links
and the event probably would not have happened.
I am just happy that there were no injury's and with a small amount of work, they
are able to fly again.
Yes, there are take away's that can be learned from each and every event. Whether
it is a Piet or a Cessna 172 there is usually something to learn.
Carry on everyone, Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440067#440067
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Subject: | Re: Jack's new Piet |
Stumbled across this video on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKUwdF17HNQ
Very Nice.
BC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440068#440068
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Subject: | Re: engine failure |
Jack,
A similar rule we used to say was "it's better to be on the ground wishin' you
were flyin', than to be flyin' wishin' you were on the ground."
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440072#440072
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Subject: | Re: Jack's new Piet |
Great video.
got lost in it sitting here at work
Jeff Faith
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440079#440079
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Subject: | Re: Jack's new Piet |
Bill Church wrote:
> Stumbled across this video on Youtube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKUwdF17HNQ
>
> Very Nice.
>
> BC
WOW! That is a great video! But more importantly -- Congratulations to Jack on
a fantastic first flight!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440095#440095
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Subject: | Re: steel tube fuselage |
Hey guys, long time lurker here.
I would like to chime in on the old steel vs. wood if I may. I have been collecting
steel tube for my Piet as well. Wood is very nice and safe, I just like
working with steel as much as I do wood. I do see some comments about steel
being cheaper. Please don't think this for a moment longer. If you go the 4130N
route. (and by the way, you don't have to) It will almost double the cost
of the fuselage to build maybe more. You can use a 1020 series of tube, like
Piper, Taylorcraft, Boeing, and for that matter most of the classics used. 1026
will still cost more than a wood fuselage. It will be lighter and stronger
and more crashworthy if the planets align and you crash "kinda hard".
As far as guys saying "I cant weld", well you could'nt fly a tail dragger either
when you first started.... Welding just takes a little practice. I TIG for
fun, instead of playing golf. It does not take long to develop the skills. Gas
welding is perfect for tube construction. Sets are relatively inexpensive.
TIG is nice and clean but completely not required to build a fuselage.
Back into my hole.
Thanks for reading.
Dave Hughes
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440114#440114
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Subject: | Re: Corvair College #33 Update |
Terry,
Were you at barnwell for cc31? I cant remember if we met. So many great people
at these events, with lots of sights, sounds and information to take in . Wish
i was coming to this one.
--------
David McBride
Rochester, NY
dmcb84@hotmail.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440126#440126
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Subject: | Re: Corvair College #33 Update |
David,
I wrote this story, with a lot of photos, http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/18/pietenpol-builders-and-pilots-at-corvair-college-31/
Specifically about the Piet builders who were present at CC#31 at Barnwell last
fall. It has lots of pictures of people who are regular contributors to this
site. -ww.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440127#440127
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