---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/31/15: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:18 AM - Re: weight and balance studying. (William Wynne) 2. 05:28 AM - Re: Re: engine failure (Jack Philips) 3. 06:42 AM - Re: engine failure (AircamperN11MS) 4. 06:44 AM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Bill Church) 5. 08:20 AM - Re: engine failure (jarheadpilot82) 6. 09:40 AM - Re: Jack's new Piet (bender) 7. 01:40 PM - Re: Jack's new Piet (Jeff Boatright) 8. 03:41 PM - Re: steel tube fuselage (stearmandriver) 9. 10:18 PM - Re: Corvair College #33 Update (David McBride) 10. 11:39 PM - Re: Corvair College #33 Update (William Wynne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: weight and balance studying. From: "William Wynne" David, Terry Hand's project is nearly Identical to what you propose. If you search the archives and look at posts by "Jarheadpilot82" he has put up some info on it. It is what you propose with the only addition of a door in the front cockpit. You can see a photo of it at this link: http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/22/terry-hands-story-our-own-honor-flight/ Which is also a moving story about Terry's father who was a Seabee in WWII. .. Without getting a calculator out, I will say your numbers look in the ball park. In another week or so I am going to have a sharp set of numbers for Terry's project fuse/mount/gear/engine, as we are going to have it on display at CC#33. You can fine tune your calculation from there. I will be glad to go over your numbers in comparative detail then. Also keep in mind that Ryan Mueller can assist with the CG program we wrote to derive the max pilot weight to stay inside the aft limit of any particular Pietenpol. Just a thought, If you are 135#, and thinking of welded cabanes, target a number like 15.5" with you in the plane, so that you can cover another pilot who might weigh a lot more in the plane. Running the calculation or letting Ryan do it will give exact numbers on this. .. Having a Plane which in CG is actually "boring" compared to having one out the aft limit or with the gear too far back. Ryan and I did the project, and many people assisted, in hope that people would do exactly what you are doing, planning ahead. -ww, Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440061#440061 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:21 AM PST US From: "Jack Philips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure Bobka's Law, from the inimitable Chris Bobka, applies here: "If it doesn't sound right on the ground, it isn't likely to sound better in the air". Get-there-itis is a deadly disease and it will kill you. Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Wynne Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:44 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure --> Scott, I know you are friends with those guys, and I like them also. But just to be accurate, with hope that others may learn something, let me point out that the terrain that those guys we flying over that day, particularly the last 2/3s of the last leg were pretty flat, and are almost all farmland served by rotating irrigation systems which are usually on very flat ground. From their report: .. Peter began experiencing engine trouble on the flight from Tucumcari, New Mexico to Guymon. Peter kept the airplane flying as far as Guymon, but the airplane was damaged on landing making it impossible for the airplane to continue any further. . To be fair, their first days of the trip covered 1,200 miles over very bad terrain. however on the last day they were already at the west Texas grasslands. Tucumcari NM and Guymon OK are only about 160 miles apart, most of what is between them is very flat Texas. The cities are connected in a dead straight line by a 4 lane highway, route 54. The halfway point is Dalhart TX, which has a large municipal airport, and the 3/4 mark is Stratford TX, which has a paved 3,000' airport right next to 54. .. .. I spoke to these guys at Oshkosh 72 hours later, and looked at their photos. They described to me that the plane was not running perfectly before this leg. But critically, I listened to the description of the last leg by the pilot, and he described having a long deteriorating condition on that leg, before he got to the 1/2 point. It is my belief that he was fixated on getting to the planned rendezvous with the ground crew at Guymon, and because of this he overflew the airports at Dalhart and Stratford. He may not have known about them, and that is why it is critical to know what is on the route. Either way, there was the highway, and it is far better to make a precautionary landing on a wide road than a forced one en route to an airport. Lesson: Once your plane is not running or flying right, your ability to develop an alternative plan, to visually see little airports, or consider a precautionary landing is greatly reduced. .. .. Scott, I agree he did a fair job landing, even though the plane ended up on it's back. How can I say that? because I did the weight and balance on the plane before it was covered, and I told them it would have a very aft CG, and the landing gear was too far back for a plane with brakes. They elected to ignore this. That was the mistake point that put the plane on it's back, not what the pilot was doing in Guymon. Many skilled pilots would have done the same thing, because the plane had the gear too far back. Lesson: When I privately point out that your gear is too far back, and you think I am kidding, I might later publicly use the example in hopes that some one else might learn from it. I hope when they rebuilt the plane that they corrected the wing position, but I am going to guess they did not. .. .. Before anyone gets upset about plain talk about a specific accident, let me point out the following: I know the builder; I saw the plane at several stages of the building, including in CA; I know the engine model very well, I know the airframe well; I personally spoke to the pilot after the accident; and I hold a degree in accident investigation from Embry-Riddle. These things don't make me better than anyone else, but they do qualify me to offer some intelligent commentary on the event. Scott knows these guys also, and also has good input to learn from. Almost no talk about accidents on the internet comes from personally informed people like Scott and I. There is something that could be gained here which is not available in most comments elsewhere. .. .. For the record, the issue was with the Carb, which is the same one that came on a Continental, so you might want to call it a carb failure, but it isn't really accurate nor informative to call it an engine failure. If there was a guy out there flying a continental who dismissed the potential to learn anything because he thought this was a Corvair problem, he is being foolish, because he is likely flying an identical carb. .. If anyone would like to imply that a Corvair couldn't have made the flight, Please look at this month's Kitplanes, The Corvair powered KR-2S pictured at Chino CA, lives in Eastern PA, and was built by this guy: http://flycorvair.net/2012/02/27/kr-2s-at-700-hours-joe-horton/ It flew out and back in the same three day weekend. .ww. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440054#440054 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:28 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure From: "AircamperN11MS" Good morning All, I understood that the day of the flight started in Socorro New Mexico. I have flown that route and know that you must get to about 8000 feet to clear the mountains to the east. That is what I was referring to about the rough terrain. I don't know at what point the engine started running rough but just wanted to make comment that he did good to get it down at an airport. We all know that with a complete engine failure we won't be gliding very far under the best of conditions. That is all I meant. I made the first flight of the plane for these guys and I never felt the gear was too far back. Since I have flown the plane, the owners changed from a rudder bar and heel brakes to rudder pedals and toe brakes. I am sure the toe brakes added to the ability to apply more braking power then what was needed at the time of that landing. Hard to say since I was not there. As Oscar mentioned. Farm fields can put planes on their back as well. It is never just one thing that causes an accident. There is usually a chain of events that cause an accident or incident. Leave out just one of the links and the event probably would not have happened. I am just happy that there were no injury's and with a small amount of work, they are able to fly again. Yes, there are take away's that can be learned from each and every event. Whether it is a Piet or a Cessna 172 there is usually something to learn. Carry on everyone, Cheers, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440067#440067 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:29 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet From: "Bill Church" Stumbled across this video on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKUwdF17HNQ Very Nice. BC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440068#440068 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:08 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: engine failure From: "jarheadpilot82" Jack, A similar rule we used to say was "it's better to be on the ground wishin' you were flyin', than to be flyin' wishin' you were on the ground." -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440072#440072 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:08 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet From: "bender" Great video. got lost in it sitting here at work Jeff Faith Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440079#440079 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:53 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Jack's new Piet From: "Jeff Boatright" Bill Church wrote: > Stumbled across this video on Youtube: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKUwdF17HNQ > > Very Nice. > > BC WOW! That is a great video! But more importantly -- Congratulations to Jack on a fantastic first flight! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440095#440095 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:44 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: steel tube fuselage From: "stearmandriver" Hey guys, long time lurker here. I would like to chime in on the old steel vs. wood if I may. I have been collecting steel tube for my Piet as well. Wood is very nice and safe, I just like working with steel as much as I do wood. I do see some comments about steel being cheaper. Please don't think this for a moment longer. If you go the 4130N route. (and by the way, you don't have to) It will almost double the cost of the fuselage to build maybe more. You can use a 1020 series of tube, like Piper, Taylorcraft, Boeing, and for that matter most of the classics used. 1026 will still cost more than a wood fuselage. It will be lighter and stronger and more crashworthy if the planets align and you crash "kinda hard". As far as guys saying "I cant weld", well you could'nt fly a tail dragger either when you first started.... Welding just takes a little practice. I TIG for fun, instead of playing golf. It does not take long to develop the skills. Gas welding is perfect for tube construction. Sets are relatively inexpensive. TIG is nice and clean but completely not required to build a fuselage. Back into my hole. Thanks for reading. Dave Hughes Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440114#440114 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:30 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair College #33 Update From: "David McBride" Terry, Were you at barnwell for cc31? I cant remember if we met. So many great people at these events, with lots of sights, sounds and information to take in . Wish i was coming to this one. -------- David McBride Rochester, NY dmcb84@hotmail.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440126#440126 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:58 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair College #33 Update From: "William Wynne" David, I wrote this story, with a lot of photos, http://flycorvair.net/2014/11/18/pietenpol-builders-and-pilots-at-corvair-college-31/ Specifically about the Piet builders who were present at CC#31 at Barnwell last fall. It has lots of pictures of people who are regular contributors to this site. -ww. 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