Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Re: New to the list (Jack)
2. 05:55 AM - welcome Semih (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 05:56 AM - Ford coolant fittings (Douwe Blumberg)
4. 06:37 AM - Re: New to the list (AircamperN11MS)
5. 08:23 AM - Re: New to the list (oldbird)
6. 08:24 AM - Re: New to the list (taildrags)
7. 08:34 AM - Re: New to the list (oldbird)
8. 08:44 AM - Re: New to the list (tools)
9. 09:21 AM - Re: New to the list (oldbird)
10. 10:08 AM - Re: New to the list (Jack Philips)
11. 10:21 AM - Re: New to the list (oldbird)
12. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: New to the list (Steven D. Dortch)
13. 11:50 AM - Re: New to the list (taildrags)
14. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build? (Tony Crawford)
15. 07:23 PM - minimum turnback altitude (Douwe Blumberg)
16. 07:36 PM - Re: minimum turnback altitude (Jeff Boatright)
17. 09:03 PM - Re: minimum turnback altitude (Steven Dortch)
18. 09:12 PM - Re: minimum turnback altitude (tools)
19. 09:44 PM - Re: Re: minimum turnback altitude (Steven Dortch)
20. 11:10 PM - Re: Re: minimum turnback altitude (Steven Dortch)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Semih welcome to the group! Everyone of your pictures detail your expert craftsmanship.
I look forward to following your progress.
Take care!
Sent from my iPad
Jack Textor
> On Apr 28, 2015, at 1:44 AM, "oldbird" <semihoksay@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Pietenpeople
>
> I am the (very) newbie. My name is Semih Oksay and I live in Istanbul, Turkey.I
fell in love with flying machines more then 60 years ago when I was 5. They
are still one of my two loves, the other being my wife.
>
> Altough I am new to the list, I started building a Pietenpol six years ago. You
can follow my progress from the following link:
>
> http://www.mykitlog.com/oldbird
>
> Before asking questions, I started reading through the previous posts, succeded
to red 12 0ut of 170 pages of headings.
> I will carry on for a while before I dare to take your valuable times.
>
> I am a mechanical engineer. I am trying to build as close to the plans as possible.
Materialwise, it is another story.
> There is no shop in Turkey which sells aircraft parts, or spruce selected and
cut to aero specification, so we few here have to learn selecting our own wood
(not necessarily spruce all the time) and test it. It is a learning process.
> For other materials, 4130 plate is not available so I am trying to substitute
AISI 304 for metal fittings.
>
> I am the tech.mgr. of a fatory dealing with stainless steels so AISI 304 is readily
available to me. We also have laser cutting and CNC bending facilities
and a full machine shop in house. So it is a strange combination of high technical
> facility versus serious shortage of materials and parts.
>
> Engine will be a Continental A65-8 from my university years. The engine is probably
older than I am. After 40+ years of storage, I took it out and it looks
pretty clean. Of course, before seriously using it, I have to run further checks
> and inspections, which I have yet to learn how.
>
> Thank you all again for sharing your knowledge, experience and thoughts.
>
> Happy landings
> Semih Oksay (oldbird)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441427#441427
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Hello and welcome Semih!
Congratulations on your progress, I applaud your perseverance in facing the
materials challenges there!!
Please keep us updated with your progress and feel free to ask questions.
Douwe
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Subject: | Ford coolant fittings |
Hey Dan,
Just an idea which you may have already done about your coolant fittings.
If you haven't already done it, you could run a little weld bead around the
ends of the tubs and grind them smooth so they form a little "lip" for the
hose clamps to hold against. Gives a bit of a mechanical connection to an
otherwise strictly friction fit. Or you could have someone with the right
tool bead the edge.
We don't like "popping" sounds when we're flying!
Douwe
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Hello Semih,
Welcome to the world of Pietenpols. Your project looks very nice. Your story
makes me fell very lucky to have all the building resources we could ever want
here in the USA.
Your story makes me wonder about your freedoms to fly in your country. Do you
have plenty of airfields to fly from? Are you free to fly without flight plans
or other restrictions? I am only curious since it is probably too far away
for me to fly over there in my Piet.
Welcome again and feel free to ask any and all questions. Someone on the list
will have an answer to most any question you can think of. I sure enjoyed looking
at your pictures.
Cheers,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441441#441441
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Hi Jack and Scott
first, let me thank you for your very nice and encouraging comments and warm welcome.
To answer Scott's questions about flying in Turkey, first of all there was no law-rule-regulation
recognizing homebuilt aircraft as "homebuilt". A regulation
under civil aviation law was released a couple of months ago for regulating homebuilt
aircraft. Far from being adequate but still a beginning (a bit late eh?).
We are actually a small group of maybe 40 people trying to do what Paul did
in 1953 founding EAA. We have a club named Experimental Aviation Society (maybe
association) and actively working to help/persuade government authorities
to make things as they shoud be (in our and rest of the world's opinion). This
includes translating, adapting regulations from FAA, EAA, BGA etc.
As for flying, my city, Istanbul is quite unlucky in terms of flying fields. We
are also in search of suitable fields, including grass areas/strips and abandoned
runways and ex-military airports close to Istanbul - maybe about an hour's
drive. We do not have any pre-defined air spaces ie. class A, class B etc. This
also is another problem. Last but not least, we still have an unproportional
taxing system for aircraft. This includes LSA. We are trying to have the authorities
to exclude homebuilts from tax and establish another class of pilot's
lisence similar to your sport pilot license (SPL).
English is not my mother tongue and please forgive me if I couldn't make myself
clear. If you have any further questions please go ahead.
regards and happy landings
Semih
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441449#441449
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Semih; my wife and I will be in Istanbul for a couple of days in October. This
will be our 4th time to visit Turkey and we always enjoy the people, the cuisine,
the country. Although I probably can't take you any spruce or 4130 from
the USA, it would be great to meet you and perhaps also see your project! Perhaps
some ay-?
Welcome to the list.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441450#441450
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
You are more than welcome Oscar. My wife also is bilingual so although she is not
home yet, she will also be thrilled when she hears this. ay or anythig else.
Looking forward
Semih
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441452#441452
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Merhaba!
Bravo on your, well, looks like more than a project, endeavor. Can't imaging having
to make a aviation system the same time as an airplane. Sort of makes you
a combination of both Paul and Bernard.
Based on you kit log, I'm guessing you'll be answering more questions than asking,
but nonetheless, I wouldn't worry about daring to take our valuable time.
Ask away if necessary, but more importantly keep telling us about this amazing
grassroots effort to start up a light civil home building and flying system
over there.
I'm hoping Terry Hand will chime in, he's an airline captain flying internationally
on equipment I know used to fly to Istanbul although I don't know if he's
senior enough to get those trips. He has on numerous occasions visited with
pietenpol builders in England. I'm sure he'd love to catch up with you! He's
been to Istanbul and loves the city. I've only had one overnight there and loved
what I saw in that short time.
I've got more time in Ankara, where I was born, to Americans in the military on
overseas assignment, but left at the age of one.
Very best of luck to you, let us know if we can be any help,at all!
Mike Danford
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441454#441454
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Merhaba Mike
again thank you very much for what I have read. All of it.
Wood: I have my own carpentry shop in the factory I work for. I also have a friend
(somewhat younger) who has a furniture and decoration stuff manufacturing
plant with high precision woodworking machinery. If you pay a reasonable amount,
any carpenter shop can saw wood for you here.
In short, there is no problem with technical ability. The problem was the material
itself.
By the way, I will not be using solid spars. I will use box spars with 25x25mm
(approx 1"x1") caps with 3mm (slightly thinner than 1/8") webs. I made the strength
calculations and they prove to be adequate. The question was not to be more
sophisticated. It was that I couldn't find correct spruce long enough. If
anyone needs dimensions, I have the CAD drawing of the whole thing (by my humbleself)
and I will be happy to share it.
Syberian pine is slightly heavier and stronger than Sitka. Since the webs will
be Okume ply (marine) I am hoping for reasonable weights. As you may have seen
from my Kitlog page, I occassionally weigh my stuff and post it, in case someone
is interested in weights. The ring count is much more than what MIL specifies
for aircraft spruce, which was, if my memory doesn't deceive me, about 6-7
rings per inch. In my case, with Syberian pine, and also the local spruce I use,
it is roughly 20.
Happy landings
Semih
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441458#441458
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Welcome, Semih! It's always amazing to me to see the ingenuity of people in
other parts of the world adapting their materials to aircraft construction.
The Pietenpol design of course lends itself well to changes in material.
I'm also a mechanical engineer, and I found my engineering knowledge very
helpful in building my own Pietenpol. Please let us know if we can help by
buying hardware or items here that we can ship to you. Is there any chance
you can make it Brodhead and Oshkosh some summer? One trip to Oshkosh can
pretty well supply you with everything you need to finish your airplane.
Best of luck to you!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of oldbird
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 2:44 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: New to the list
Hi Pietenpeople
I am the (very) newbie. My name is Semih Oksay and I live in Istanbul,
Turkey.I fell in love with flying machines more then 60 years ago when I was
5. They are still one of my two loves, the other being my wife.
Altough I am new to the list, I started building a Pietenpol six years ago.
You can follow my progress from the following link:
http://www.mykitlog.com/oldbird
Before asking questions, I started reading through the previous posts,
succeded to red 12 0ut of 170 pages of headings.
I will carry on for a while before I dare to take your valuable times.
I am a mechanical engineer. I am trying to build as close to the plans as
possible. Materialwise, it is another story.
There is no shop in Turkey which sells aircraft parts, or spruce selected
and cut to aero specification, so we few here have to learn selecting our
own wood (not necessarily spruce all the time) and test it. It is a learning
process.
For other materials, 4130 plate is not available so I am trying to
substitute AISI 304 for metal fittings.
I am the tech.mgr. of a fatory dealing with stainless steels so AISI 304 is
readily available to me. We also have laser cutting and CNC bending
facilities and a full machine shop in house. So it is a strange combination
of high technical facility versus serious shortage of materials and parts.
Engine will be a Continental A65-8 from my university years. The engine is
probably older than I am. After 40+ years of storage, I took it out and it
looks pretty clean. Of course, before seriously using it, I have to run
further checks and inspections, which I have yet to learn how.
Thank you all again for sharing your knowledge, experience and thoughts.
Happy landings
Semih Oksay (oldbird)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441427#441427
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
Can you please post where you are located? My son and granddaughters are living
in Orlando, Fl. Another close relative, with granddaughter lives in Queens, NY.
We visit them once in a while. If I have the chance, I would love to visit
you guys if I have the opportunity.
Happy landings
Semih
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441463#441463
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
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Subject: | Re: New to the list |
That's a good idea, Steve. I have plenty of spruce cutoffs and it might be of
interest to have samples to at least do glue tests with.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441467#441467
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Subject: | Re: Who Would Like To Get A Huge Boost In Their Build? |
Hi Terry,
Have you had a chance to work something out with Skip? At one time you had
said visiting you and your PIET. Where are you located. This might be an
option to meet with you and Skip. Let me know if you have any ideas or
thoughts on this. Only one problem, For me to meet you and Skip it would
have to be a Friday afternoon or Saturday or Sunday. Thank You.
Tony
Tony Crawford
480-748-3470
On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 7:25 PM, jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
>
> I am glad it all worked out for every one!
>
> --------
> Semper Fi,
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens, GA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440023#440023
>
>
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Subject: | minimum turnback altitude |
Okay good people,
Here's a tricky one. Has anyone experimented with how much altitude is
needed to turn a piet 180 degrees? What I'm asking is what is the minimum
height, AGL that one would feel comfortable turning back to the airport on
climbout rather than just "controlling the crash" straight ahead.
I've never tried it at altitude, but I'm curious.
Also, what is the best technique for this?
Douwe
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Subject: | Re: minimum turnback altitude |
Hi Douwe,
Boy, that's a tough on, IMO. Probably will differ with each airplane, pilot, and
circumstance.
A lot of effort went into this analysis of that very question:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf
I have no idea how relevant it is to Piets, though.
HTH,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441480#441480
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Subject: | Re: minimum turnback altitude |
Douwe, from the beachcraft list discussion on turning back to a runway.
It is not a 180 but more of a 270 Plus.
In other words you do a left turn out, then continue turning until you are
back in line with the runway and a right turn to line up with the runway.
Read the article "should you turn back? Or the possible 'impossible' turn'
" by Dave Rogers, PHD. It really discusses this turn in depth.
Blue skies
Steve D
On Apr 28, 2015 9:25 PM, "Douwe Blumberg" <douwe@douwestudios.com> wrote:
> Okay good people,
>
>
> Here=99s a tricky one. Has anyone experimented with how much alt
itude is
> needed to turn a piet 180 degrees? What I=99m asking is what is t
he minimum
> height, AGL that one would feel comfortable turning back to the airport o
n
> climbout rather than just =9Ccontrolling the crash=9D straigh
t ahead.
>
>
> I=99ve never tried it at altitude, but I=99m curious.
>
>
> Also, what is the best technique for this?
>
>
> Douwe
>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
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Subject: | Re: minimum turnback altitude |
This is EXTREMELY valuable to talk about.
I have no clue. I can say as a kerosene burner that I fly very low power on approaches
for a Piet. It has something to do with 8000 plus hours looking at 3
degree glide paths at about 150 mph. I'm trying to recover... However, I can
say with pride nearly all my approaches are 3 degrees plus one minus a tenth
of a degree without an electronic or visual glide path indicator. Geesh.
My second ride ever in a Piet was with Axel. He turned base and I thought there
was no way on earth we were EVER going to make the field. Which of course we
did, easily. I couldn't believe it. I thought we were high by several orders
of magnitude...
So here's my take on technique anyway. If you turn with anything less than cruise
power, you have to STUFF the nose until you're wings level. Not ease her
down, not lower it a bit... STUFF it. It's going to feel unnatural, it's going
to KILL a lot of altitude, you're going to be staring at a lot of terra firma.
The only reason to slip a Piet is for visibility, not because it won't come
down!
The best engine failure scenario is a total failure. It's CLEAR you've got a very
serious problem. "Loss of power" scenarios are insidious. How can you determine
how much you've lost? It's a Piet, we rely on vibration, noise and wind
blast, which can all increase while our power decreases. On a half million
pound jet, I ONLY rely on my engine instruments to determine engine performance
because my engines are very far away and I can't hear or feel them at all.
Not so in a Piet.
I'm pretty certain more folks are hurt in power loss cases due to stalling rather
than hitting something while maintaining a controllable speed. Keep your speed
up and make sure the nose of the plane doesn't hit a tree trunk and a wing
does... You can only do that if you have enough speed. Otherwise it's up,to
Newton to decide what you hit, not you.
This is not a trivial decision to make if you're thinking about the ten years to
make the plane you're about to total... Especially if you're thinking you've
engine is merely running bad rather than realizing you've lost more power than
you really have.
I hope a lot of folks chime in on this one. I don't know a single light civil
pilot with thousands of hours who haven't lost an engine. I don't know more than
a few kerosene burners who have, and they all just ejected... Again not trivial,
but not that hard of a decision! Given I only have about 150 light civil
hours I assume my turn is still coming, and that scares me, which is fine because
it keeps me striving to learn from others as much as I can.
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441482#441482
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Subject: | Re: minimum turnback altitude |
Jeff, the article I referenced is by the same team. The one I referenced
has much less math.
Both articles discuss the best technique to perform the 180 degree turn
back.
The most efficient technique is to do a 45 degree turn just above stall
speed. On completion of the turn, a dive to best glide speed was
performed. However, this technique introduces a high probability of a stall
spin. A 30 degree turn just above stall speed was not as tight and
efficient but virtually eliminated stall spin incidences.
I practiced at altitude in my old Cessna 150 and in my Vtail a couple of
times. You do get much better with practice.
Blue skies,
Steve D.
On Apr 28, 2015 9:38 PM, "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright@emory.edu> wrote:
> jeffboatright@emory.edu>
>
> Hi Douwe,
>
> Boy, that's a tough on, IMO. Probably will differ with each airplane,
> pilot, and circumstance.
>
> A lot of effort went into this analysis of that very question:
>
> http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf
>
> I have no idea how relevant it is to Piets, though.
>
> HTH,
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441480#441480
>
>
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Subject: | Re: minimum turnback altitude |
the article
http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/possible.html
the series
http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:44 PM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Jeff, the article I referenced is by the same team. The one I referenced
> has much less math.
> Both articles discuss the best technique to perform the 180 degree turn
> back.
> The most efficient technique is to do a 45 degree turn just above stall
> speed. On completion of the turn, a dive to best glide speed was
> performed. However, this technique introduces a high probability of a stall
> spin. A 30 degree turn just above stall speed was not as tight and
> efficient but virtually eliminated stall spin incidences.
>
> I practiced at altitude in my old Cessna 150 and in my Vtail a couple of
> times. You do get much better with practice.
>
> Blue skies,
> Steve D.
> On Apr 28, 2015 9:38 PM, "Jeff Boatright" <jeffboatright@emory.edu> wrote:
>
>> jeffboatright@emory.edu>
>>
>> Hi Douwe,
>>
>> Boy, that's a tough on, IMO. Probably will differ with each airplane,
>> pilot, and circumstance.
>>
>> A lot of effort went into this analysis of that very question:
>>
>> http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf
>>
>> I have no idea how relevant it is to Piets, though.
>>
>> HTH,
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=441480#441480
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
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