Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:28 AM - Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In? (William Wynne)
2. 06:43 AM - Ethanol (Douwe Blumberg)
3. 06:57 AM - Re: Ethanol (Dale Johnson)
4. 07:06 AM - Re: Ethanol (jarheadpilot82)
5. 07:36 AM - Re: Ethanol (William Wynne)
6. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol (Marcus Zechini)
7. 08:01 AM - Re: Ethanol (Marcus Zechini)
8. 08:10 AM - Re: Ethanol (Steven Dortch)
9. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol (Steven Dortch)
10. 02:14 PM - Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop..... (aviken)
11. 02:49 PM - Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In? (DonkDoug)
12. 04:02 PM - Hybrid Bernard Swing Arm Steerable Tailwheel (Ryan M)
13. 05:24 PM - Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop..... (aerocarjake)
14. 06:16 PM - Re: Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In? (Steven Dortch)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In? |
Jim,
You have a noble idea, but there are some practical limitations that might even
be applied to just the building of your own plane. I write a lot, but don't know
the 'practical limitations' of your craft, publishing. My craft is building
planes so some thoughts here;
Muir's book on VW's that Oz mentions is a master work, and it educates, but it's
success is that Muir focused the procedures on single methods he knew to work.
It truly is a 'bible' in the sense that most religious texts describe a single
path to God.
I have found that people new to a mechanical experience are much more likely to
experience success if they are simply presented the logic behind a proven example,
and step by step instructions for that specific example, rather than a lot
of optional routes that may all work but not be compatible with each other.
Because you are in publishing, you understand the role of editor, and if you
are yet to complete a plane, you might not be the strongest 'editor'
Ideally lets say you had just ten people as contributors, who had each built and
flown their own very good Piet 500 hours as contributors. Then you broke the
building task into 100 elements, and cataloged how each of the ten elected to
do the 100 tasks. Sounds like a winner, but here is the rub: A new green guy
picks the one of ten paths he likes best for each of the 100 tasks, but he doesn't
have the experience to understand that even if his combination bolts together,
there is a strong chance that it will work poorly, because not all permutations
made of good ideas work together.
BTW, people are essentially doing this right now, most without understanding this
limitation. It is for this reason that I advise new guys to pick one well proven
Piet, and build their own close copy of it. New guys make the mistake of
thinking this means copying how a plane looks. What I mean is picking a mechanical
layout, ie a fuselage length, power plant, a CG pattern, fuel system, landing
gear, and duplicating it mechanically. The external cosmetic looks, within
reason, are not important to how the plane flies or if it is mechanically
sound.
This is essentially the approach we have over on our "Piet-vair" group. We have
100+ guys building planes that will all probably look different, but they are
all patterned after a handful of mechanically proven paths. This starts early
in the project, as we have in individual W&B page for each builder, not as something
done later as a rude awakening after the build, but as an integrated part
of the build itself, where it does the most good, as prevention of problems.
The task of looking after builders is infinitely simpler if they are all using
the same power plant, and critically, they are in the discussion, so other
builders read their responses to understand what they don't yet follow. Guys
lurking on websites or reading books are one way communications without the feedback
loop that is a vital part of teaching people and learning. They often don't
have experienced people to say 'those are good ideas, but they don't work
together well.'
http://flycorvair.net/2015/09/06/zen-vair-and-piet-vair-discussion-groups-your-resource/
PS, No one in my family can dance, but Dad is a '49 graduate of "Canoe U", and
damn it, we were all going to know how to sail well. I have also built a good
number of boats from 8' to 30'. Here is an important difference on Planes vs Boats:
1) On the water, the 'defecation hits the rotary oscillator' slower than
it does in the sky. 2) Almost any collection of buoyant material will float,
even when it will not sail at all. A collection of bad plane ideas has no 'float'
analogy. 3) I have had to contemplate using both life jackets and parachutes,
and at that moment, I didn't have to think of how little training I had in
using my life jacket, I knew it would 'deploy' automatically at the surface.
.ww.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446987#446987
Message 2
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Hey all,
Would anybody truly "in the know" help me understand why ethanol fuel is
considered a "no-no" in our type of airplane?
I understand that the alcohol can freeze in the tank and lines, but I don't
think that is an issue with our type of low and slow flying.
The other problem I've heard about is "vapor lock". What exactly is this
and why aren't cars lining the sides of the roads because of vapor lock?
Thanks,
Douwe
Message 3
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Douwe
Cars have the fuel pump in the tank with a lot of pressure not gravity fed.
Ethanol fuel will asorb water not what you want in the tank.
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: Douwe Blumberg
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 8:32 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ethanol
Hey all,
Would anybody truly "in the know" help me understand why ethanol fuel is
considered a "no-no" in our type of airplane?
I understand that the alcohol can freeze in the tank and lines, but I don
't think that is an issue with our type of low and slow flying.
The other problem I've heard about is "vapor lock". What exactly is this
and why aren't cars lining the sides of the roads because of vapor lock?
Thanks,
Douwe
---
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Message 4
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Ethanol, as I understand it, will also eat rubber fuel lines and gaskets if they
are not ethanol-compatible.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446992#446992
Message 5
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Douwe
Let me share one first hand experience that will illustrate how this could bite
some one. Years ago I was putting auto fuel in my wife's C-85 powered Taylorcraft.
The next day it seemed like the cork and wire fuel gauge was lower than
expected. Inspection shows that the fuel actually had 10% ethanol in it. The Cork
on the wire was attacked by the ethanol content in 4 gallons of gas, left
in the tank overnight. The bits of cork were floating on the fuel, but some of
the reaction was laying in the gascolater.
This shows that 100% of your fuel system must be ethanol proof is you are ever
to use any fuel other than 100LL. I am not sure you can count on auto fuel having
zero ethanol even when it says so. Thus everything, down to the gas cap gasket,
the float, the gasket on the bowl of your gascolater, the O-rings in your
fuel valve, and your lines and carb, must be tolerant of ethanol if you consider
car gas.
Car systems have ZERO to do with plane systems. Modern EFI cars, as pointed out
are immune to vapor lock because they hold the fuel at pressure in the system,
and it is circulated for cooling. Their tanks are 100% sealed and not vented,
and they don't absorb h2o for this reason. The systems and function are so different
that it is very bad logic to make any conclusion about ethanol in planes
based on car experience.
Alcohol effectively will not freeze at flying temps, it was added to the ADI water
injection on piston airliners for that reason. The issue is that it is hydroscopic,
and this is a factor in planes with vented fuel systems and long periods
of inactivity.
Vapor pressure on car fuel is very different, and this contributes both to the
potential of carb ice and to vapor lock For those that have not seen it, my wife
wrote this story 15 years ago, it has been reprinted many times, but it is
still very valid today:
http://www.flycorvair.com/carbice.html
-ww.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446993#446993
Message 6
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Yes, it is so. Fortunately, I experienced with old tractor, not my Piet. I
DO run 87 octane mogas, but 'tis ethanol free. No problems, yet. 100LL does
dirty up the fuse way more than the mogas.
-Zeke
GN-1 w/C-85-12
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 10:06 AM, jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com
> wrote:
> jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
>
> Ethanol, as I understand it, will also eat rubber fuel lines and gaskets
> if they are not ethanol-compatible.
>
> --------
> Semper Fi,
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens, GA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446992#446992
>
>
Message 7
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Terry is right, I know. It's that the ethanol will destroy o-rings, seals
in your carb.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Douwe Blumberg <douwe@douwestudios.com>
wrote:
> Hey all,
>
>
> Would anybody truly =9Cin the know=9D help me understand why
ethanol fuel is
> considered a =9Cno-no=9D in our type of airplane?
>
>
> I understand that the alcohol can freeze in the tank and lines, but I
> don=99t think that is an issue with our type of low and slow flying
.
>
>
> The other problem I=99ve heard about is =9Cvapor lock
=9D. What exactly is this
> and why aren=99t cars lining the sides of the roads because of vapo
r lock?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Douwe
>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
Message 8
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for Continental engines the ethanol will deteriorate the seals inside our
carbs. not sure about Model As, corvairs or other engines.
Water absorbed into the ethanol is a big problem. Also vapor lock at his
altitude (may not be an issue for us, as you mentioned.)
Blue skies,
Steve D
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Douwe Blumberg <douwe@douwestudios.com>
wrote:
> Hey all,
>
>
> Would anybody truly =9Cin the know=9D help me understand why
ethanol fuel is
> considered a =9Cno-no=9D in our type of airplane?
>
>
> I understand that the alcohol can freeze in the tank and lines, but I
> don=99t think that is an issue with our type of low and slow flying
.
>
>
> The other problem I=99ve heard about is =9Cvapor lock
=9D. What exactly is this
> and why aren=99t cars lining the sides of the roads because of vapo
r lock?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Douwe
>
> *
>
===========
.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
===========
===========
om/contribution>
===========
>
> *
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 9
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Interestingly you can "wash" ethanol out of your gas by adding water!
Seriously, that is a way to remove alcohol.
Basic technique is to put in enough water to bond with the alcohol. then
shake or stir the fuel to get it to bond. Then let it sit so that the
water/alcohol mixture settles to the bottom and drain it off.
Now you have ethanol free gas. You may want to test it for ethanol and for
octane. Alcohol raises the octane. So removing it will drop octane. It may
still be high enough.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:06 AM, jarheadpilot82 <jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com>
>
> Ethanol, as I understand it, will also eat rubber fuel lines and gaskets
> if they are not ethanol-compatible.
>
> --------
> Semper Fi,
>
> Terry Hand
> Athens, GA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446992#446992
>
>
--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop..... |
It is great to see someone else that appreciates the quietness of your work shop..
I suppose it is a mixed blessing that hardly anyone ever comes to my shop
. Maybe it is because it is hidden behind my house in the corner of my yard.
True I would love to see people who appreciate this little airplane and the
effort it takes to build one . I do love the build that is so true, but my
goal is to fly it and not spend years on this project. Who knows I might have
another project in mind!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447009#447009
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In? |
Jim,
Have you ever read any of Tracy Kidder's books? If he were to build a Piet and
write about the experience it would be a classic, at least amongst airplane folks.
It would also generate interest in home building and aviation, I suspect,
with people who formally might not had an interest in that sort of thing.
If you have not read him you might give him a try. It may give you some ideas
for what you are trying to do. His book titled House would be a good one to start
with.
Doug Wright
Stillwater, OK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447010#447010
Message 12
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| Subject: | Hybrid Bernard Swing Arm Steerable Tailwheel |
Pieters,
=C2- =C2- =C2-Are there any good plans or details out there for a com
bination Bernard swing arm/steerable tailwheel? I really don't want to rein
vent the (tail) wheel if someone has a good design that works. May be a goo
d column for the newsletter if there's not one already...
Ryan
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: The quiet after a good day in the shop..... |
I applaud builders like yourself who make progress quicker/more effectively and
are not so focused on a serene workshop - well done...! So neat that this "building
an airplane" thing can be done is so many different ways.
One important aspect for me is keeping my neighbors from being worried/concerned
that I am building an airplane - since my shop is in the garage of my condo
and there are people living above these garages.....
--------
Jake Schultz - curator,
Newport Way Air Museum (OK, it's just my home)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447014#447014
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: The 'Piet Builder's Bible' Project - Want In? |
Doug, how far along are you on your post? I am based at Enid, OK (my piet
is in San Antonio.)
Steve D
On Sep 11, 2015 4:52 PM, "DonkDoug" <douglas.wright@okstate.edu> wrote:
> douglas.wright@okstate.edu>
>
> Jim,
>
> Have you ever read any of Tracy Kidder's books? If he were to build a
> Piet and write about the experience it would be a classic, at least amongst
> airplane folks. It would also generate interest in home building and
> aviation, I suspect, with people who formally might not had an interest in
> that sort of thing.
>
> If you have not read him you might give him a try. It may give you some
> ideas for what you are trying to do. His book titled House would be a good
> one to start with.
>
> Doug Wright
> Stillwater, OK
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447010#447010
>
>
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