Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:33 AM - Mid-Atlantic Fly-In (Marcus Zechini)
2. 06:31 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol (Steven Dortch)
3. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol (Kip Gardner)
4. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol (Steven Dortch)
5. 08:23 AM - Re: Mid-Atlantic Fly-In (Fastnaught John)
6. 08:30 AM - Re: Ethanol (taildrags)
7. 08:52 AM - Re: Mid-Atlantic Fly-In (Marcus Zechini)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Mid-Atlantic Fly-In |
Pietenpeople:
I am trying to get an idea of who would show for a Fly-In at 3VA7 near
Winchester, Virginia ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/3VA7 ) the 3rd weekend
in October.
"Camping" would be in my home 4 miles from the field. I am providing
dinner (of course, libations, too) and breakfast.
RSVP so I can plan, and stock up.
-Zeke
Grega w/C-85-12
Message 2
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New car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100%
gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol.
Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85%
ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow the
fuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.
In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice of
all three at some places.
According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanol
writer) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, and
rubber.
Blue Skies,
Steve D.
On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, <macz@peak.org> wrote:
> Oscar--
> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am
> really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone
> in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a
> test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And
> I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can
> get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.
> Cheers, Mac in Newport
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"John Cox" <rv10pro@gmail.com>
> *To: *pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Sent: *Saturday, September 12, 2015 8:30:13 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
>
> Great Read.
>
> John Cox
> Aurora, OR
> On Sep 12, 2015 11:10, "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Douwe; while I don't claim to be "in the know", as a fire protection
>> engineer I do have some knowledge of fuels and I can read a table of
>> physical properties of fuels. Strictly from the "fuel as energy"
>> standpoint, ethanol has an energy content of about 11,590 Btu per lb and
>> gasoline (including 100LL avgas) has an energy content of about 18,700 Btu
>> per lb. This means when you're burning a blend of gasoline and ethanol,
>> you're leaving some power on the table. Here in Oregon, regulations
>> mandate the sale of "E10" in some areas of the state and at certain times
>> of the year. This is a blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol and it
>> results in a fuel with somewhere between 3% and 4% less energy than
>> straight gas. To put it in practical terms, but greatly oversimplifying,
>> your engine that produces 100HP running on avgas will only produce 96-97HP
>> on E10 mogas. Granted, the E10 will cost quite a bit less and that's the
>> attraction of it. As you've read from other posts here, ther!
>> e are downsides and one of them is the fact that ethanol is incompatible
>> with a lot of materials.
>>
>> Another downside is the potential for vapor lock. Ethanol has a lower
>> boiling point than straight gasoline, so it is less tolerant of high
>> temperatures under the cowling and it can vaporize in the fuel lines or
>> anywhere it's close to a hot surface. A vapor pocket or bubble in the fuel
>> system can stop the flow of fuel... "vapor lock". The problem is increased
>> in the summer, of course, because when we land with a nice warmed-up engine
>> and taxi over to the fuel pump and shut down, the areas inside the cowling
>> become heat-soaked and since there is no flow of cooler fuel in the lines
>> when the engine is shut down, the fuel can vaporize and lock the system,
>> making startup more difficult.
>>
>> The reason why you don't see cars sitting all over the shoulders of the
>> road with vapor lock is because most vehicles now are fuel injected or they
>> have fuel pumps that deliver the fuel under pressure, not gravity, and the
>> boiling point of a liquid increases as the pressure increases. You know
>> this from your camping experiences when you try to boil water while camping
>> up in the mountains. It boils at a lower temperature up where the
>> atmospheric pressure is lower, and your beans never cook! Of course this
>> same effect means that flying at higher altitudes lowers the boiling point
>> of fuel that contains ethanol, but most Piets fly down pretty low where
>> that isn't a big factor. More than you wanted to know, I'm sure ;o)
>>
>> --------
>> Oscar Zuniga
>> Medford, OR
>> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
>> A75 power
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447027#447027
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> enpol-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 3
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I imagine vehicle age makes a difference. I have a 2001 Toyota Sienna
van that is supposed to make 26mpg & it stays pretty consistently at 21
on 10% EtOH gas. I may try Mac's experiment, the premium differential
around here is less than 25%.
Kip Gardner
On Sep 16, 2015, at 9:30 AM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch@gmail.com>
wrote:
> New car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on
100% gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10%
ethanol. Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to
85% ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will
follow the fuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.
>
> In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a
choice of all three at some places.
>
> According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro
ethanol writer) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum,
magnesium, and rubber.
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D.
>
> On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, <macz@peak.org> wrote:
> Oscar--
> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I
am really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but
someone in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So
I ran a test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high
test gas. And I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So
now whenever I can get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price
premium, I get that.
> Cheers, Mac in Newport
>
> From: "John Cox" <rv10pro@gmail.com>
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2015 8:30:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
>
> Great Read.
>
> John Cox
> Aurora, OR
>
> On Sep 12, 2015 11:10, "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
<taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
> Douwe; while I don't claim to be "in the know", as a fire protection
engineer I do have some knowledge of fuels and I can read a table of
physical properties of fuels. Strictly from the "fuel as energy"
standpoint, ethanol has an energy content of about 11,590 Btu per lb and
gasoline (including 100LL avgas) has an energy content of about 18,700
Btu per lb. This means when you're burning a blend of gasoline and
ethanol, you're leaving some power on the table. Here in Oregon,
regulations mandate the sale of "E10" in some areas of the state and at
certain times of the year. This is a blend of 90% gasoline and 10%
ethanol and it results in a fuel with somewhere between 3% and 4% less
energy than straight gas. To put it in practical terms, but greatly
oversimplifying, your engine that produces 100HP running on avgas will
only produce 96-97HP on E10 mogas. Granted, the E10 will cost quite a
bit less and that's the attraction of it. As you've read from other
posts here, ther!
> e are downsides and one of them is the fact that ethanol is
incompatible with a lot of materials.
>
> Another downside is the potential for vapor lock. Ethanol has a lower
boiling point than straight gasoline, so it is less tolerant of high
temperatures under the cowling and it can vaporize in the fuel lines or
anywhere it's close to a hot surface. A vapor pocket or bubble in the
fuel system can stop the flow of fuel... "vapor lock". The problem is
increased in the summer, of course, because when we land with a nice
warmed-up engine and taxi over to the fuel pump and shut down, the areas
inside the cowling become heat-soaked and since there is no flow of
cooler fuel in the lines when the engine is shut down, the fuel can
vaporize and lock the system, making startup more difficult.
>
> The reason why you don't see cars sitting all over the shoulders of
the road with vapor lock is because most vehicles now are fuel injected
or they have fuel pumps that deliver the fuel under pressure, not
gravity, and the boiling point of a liquid increases as the pressure
increases. You know this from your camping experiences when you try to
boil water while camping up in the mountains. It boils at a lower
temperature up where the atmospheric pressure is lower, and your beans
never cook! Of course this same effect means that flying at higher
altitudes lowers the boiling point of fuel that contains ethanol, but
most Piets fly down pretty low where that isn't a big factor. More than
you wanted to know, I'm sure ;o)
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447027#447027
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> br> enpol-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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In my Bonanza, I run 100LL in the wing tanks. If available I run unleaded
MOGAS in the AUX (Baggage) tank. the system is a pressure carb and pumps
13 Gallons to the carb and returns 3.5 gallons to the left tank. So I end
up with a Mix in the left tank and Do about 1/2 of my cruising on the aux
tank.
The old bird (1948) seems to prefer the autofuel. the 100 LL keeps me
trying to keep the lead burned off of the plugs.
Note! 100LL is very stable. It can burn cleanly after 1 to two years in
good storage. The modern MOGAS is not very stable. It goes bad (separates
into varnish and other chemicals) after a couple of months. When I put my
Bonanza in storage I put 100 LL in all three tanks.
Just a point of reference.
Blue Skies,
Steve D
On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Kip Gardner <kipgohio1957@gmail.com> wrote:
> I imagine vehicle age makes a difference. I have a 2001 Toyota Sienna van
> that is supposed to make 26mpg & it stays pretty consistently at 21 on 10%
> EtOH gas. I may try Mac's experiment, the premium differential around here
> is less than 25%.
>
> Kip Gardner
>
> On Sep 16, 2015, at 9:30 AM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> New car or old? My 2013 Ford Explorer only gets about 2 mpg better on 100%
> gas. It's electronic brain adjusts the system to digest the 10% ethanol.
> Indeed, it is a flex fuel vehicle and can run E85 (from 51% to 85%
> ethanol.) I have not run it yet but will give it a try and will follow the
> fuel mileage. I will then run some E10 and then run 100% gas.
>
> In Texas there is only 10% ethanol or E85. In Oklahoma you have a choice
> of all three at some places.
>
> According to a Wikipedia list on ethanol (written by a very pro ethanol
> writer) the fuel system cannot have unprotected aluminum, magnesium, and
> rubber.
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D.
>
> On Sep 15, 2015 10:17 PM, <macz@peak.org> wrote:
>
>> Oscar--
>> I had heard that ethanol only degraded fuel mileage (the only thing I am
>> really interested in for my pickup) a relatively small amount--but someone
>> in my Model A club said it was a bigger deal than I thought. So I ran a
>> test--a thousand miles each with E10 gas vs non-ethanol high test gas. And
>> I got 26% BETTER mileage with the non-alcohol gas. So now whenever I can
>> get non-alcohol gas for less than about a 25% price premium, I get that.
>> Cheers, Mac in Newport
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From: *"John Cox" <rv10pro@gmail.com>
>> *To: *pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> *Sent: *Saturday, September 12, 2015 8:30:13 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ethanol
>>
>> Great Read.
>>
>> John Cox
>> Aurora, OR
>> On Sep 12, 2015 11:10, "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Douwe; while I don't claim to be "in the know", as a fire protection
>>> engineer I do have some knowledge of fuels and I can read a table of
>>> physical properties of fuels. Strictly from the "fuel as energy"
>>> standpoint, ethanol has an energy content of about 11,590 Btu per lb and
>>> gasoline (including 100LL avgas) has an energy content of about 18,700 Btu
>>> per lb. This means when you're burning a blend of gasoline and ethanol,
>>> you're leaving some power on the table. Here in Oregon, regulations
>>> mandate the sale of "E10" in some areas of the state and at certain times
>>> of the year. This is a blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol and it
>>> results in a fuel with somewhere between 3% and 4% less energy than
>>> straight gas. To put it in practical terms, but greatly oversimplifying,
>>> your engine that produces 100HP running on avgas will only produce 96-97HP
>>> on E10 mogas. Granted, the E10 will cost quite a bit less and that's the
>>> attraction of it. As you've read from other posts here, ther!
>>> e are downsides and one of them is the fact that ethanol is
>>> incompatible with a lot of materials.
>>>
>>> Another downside is the potential for vapor lock. Ethanol has a lower
>>> boiling point than straight gasoline, so it is less tolerant of high
>>> temperatures under the cowling and it can vaporize in the fuel lines or
>>> anywhere it's close to a hot surface. A vapor pocket or bubble in the fuel
>>> system can stop the flow of fuel... "vapor lock". The problem is increased
>>> in the summer, of course, because when we land with a nice warmed-up engine
>>> and taxi over to the fuel pump and shut down, the areas inside the cowling
>>> become heat-soaked and since there is no flow of cooler fuel in the lines
>>> when the engine is shut down, the fuel can vaporize and lock the system,
>>> making startup more difficult.
>>>
>>> The reason why you don't see cars sitting all over the shoulders of the
>>> road with vapor lock is because most vehicles now are fuel injected or they
>>> have fuel pumps that deliver the fuel under pressure, not gravity, and the
>>> boiling point of a liquid increases as the pressure increases. You know
>>> this from your camping experiences when you try to boil water while camping
>>> up in the mountains. It boils at a lower temperature up where the
>>> atmospheric pressure is lower, and your beans never cook! Of course this
>>> same effect means that flying at higher altitudes lowers the boiling point
>>> of fuel that contains ethanol, but most Piets fly down pretty low where
>>> that isn't a big factor. More than you wanted to know, I'm sure ;o)
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Oscar Zuniga
>>> Medford, OR
>>> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
>>> A75 power
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447027#447027
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> br> enpol-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>
>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
>> tp://forums.matronics.com
>> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>>
>> *
>>
>> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com/ <http://forums.matronics.com/>">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
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--
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Atlantic Fly-In |
Marcus,
I=99m glad you thought of this. We=99ve been having this
discussion down here in South Carolina for a while now. Unfortunately
I=99m still in phase one of my fly-off and probably won=99t
have enough hours to make that trip, as much as I would like. Maybe in
the spring or other date would be good for me. Please keep in touch.
Thanks,
Jack
Ford model A
Wire wheels
phase 1
> On Sep 16, 2015, at 7:33 AM, Marcus Zechini <marcus.zechini@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Pietenpeople:
>
> I am trying to get an idea of who would show for a Fly-In at 3VA7 near
Winchester, Virginia ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/3VA7
<http://www.airnav.com/airport/3VA7> ) the 3rd weekend in October.
>
> "Camping" would be in my home 4 miles from the field. I am providing
dinner (of course, libations, too) and breakfast.
>
> RSVP so I can plan, and stock up.
>
> -Zeke
> Grega w/C-85-12
>
>
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
Message 6
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...all of which goes to prove the now-overused phrase, "your mileage may vary"
;o)
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447122#447122
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Mid-Atlantic Fly-In |
Will do. Always open for suggestions. Good luck with fly off!
On Sep 16, 2015 11:25 AM, "Fastnaught John" <fastnaught@windstream.net>
wrote:
> Marcus,
> I=99m glad you thought of this. We=99ve been having this disc
ussion down here
> in South Carolina for a while now. Unfortunately I=99m still in pha
se one of
> my fly-off and probably won=99t have enough hours to make that trip
, as much
> as I would like. Maybe in the spring or other date would be good for me.
> Please keep in touch.
> Thanks,
> Jack
>
> Ford model A
> Wire wheels
> phase 1
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2015, at 7:33 AM, Marcus Zechini <marcus.zechini@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Pietenpeople:
>
> I am trying to get an idea of who would show for a Fly-In at 3VA7 near
> Winchester, Virginia ( http://www.airnav.com/airport/3VA7 ) the 3rd
> weekend in October.
>
> "Camping" would be in my home 4 miles from the field. I am providing
> dinner (of course, libations, too) and breakfast.
>
> RSVP so I can plan, and stock up.
>
> -Zeke
> Grega w/C-85-12
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.mat
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avigator?Pietenpol-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
> class="">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com>
> class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.co
m/contribution>
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> *
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>
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