Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: Tank Shape/Support (Yahoo! Account Service)
2. 07:04 AM - CG and rear seat solo (Steven Dortch)
3. 12:42 PM - Re: CG and rear seat solo (Charles N. Campbell)
4. 02:05 PM - Re: CG and rear seat solo (tools)
5. 09:32 PM - Re: CG and rear seat solo (taildrags)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Tank Shape/Support |
-----Original Message-----
>From: taildrags <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 13, 2015 12:23 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tank Shape/Support
It's much easier with paper and pencil than doing it with the welding torch,
wrenches, shims, weights, and other kludges after it's built.
>
>--------
>Oscar Zuniga
Great post Oscar,
I had to look up kludges, for others who may not know
kludge an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to fulfill a particular
purpose.
Can also be a verb "Oscar had to kludge something together"
Skip
Building my fifth shop during my Piet project, hope to get the Piet into the new
shop before winter.
Message 2
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Subject: | CG and rear seat solo |
I thought I would do something unusual and change the subject line.
First Just to beat the CG drum and refresh Pietenpeople as to the effects
of CG.
Aft CG gets the center of Gravity and the elevator too close together. As a
result small elevator inputs result in larger noseup or down tendencies.
Also If a Stall develops, an Aft CG causes the plane to enter and stay in
the spin. An aft CG causes the plane to be recovery resistant.
A forward CG places the elevator and CG far apart, causing the plane to
become overly stable. The plane does not want to stall or spin, but it also
does not want to raise it's nose and flare for landing. An approach that is
too steep may not be arrested by pulling back on the stick! Resulting in a
hard pancake landing.
On my list of things to do is to do an accurate weight and balance with our
EAA chapter scales (they come with an EAA member who is a W&B expert for
$40. what a bargan.) I will do it: totally empty, with Oil and unusable
gas, full nose tank, both tanks full, me on board and two on board.
During the past several years I have weighed up to 210 and lost weight
down to 183. I have crept back up to 195 lbs and am now creeping back
down. I can affect my W&B the best by staying at a healthy weight. I am now
old enough that I cannot out exercise my diet.
Now for a quick question. I have always thought of my Pietenpol as a rear
seat solo only plane. Are there any that can be soloed from the front?
Blue Skies,
Steve D
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: CG and rear seat solo |
Who would want to solo a Piet from the front seat? Mine has nothing up
there except the seat, stick, and rudder pedals. I put those in so that I
can let my grandson (a Marine pilot who retires next summer) get checked
out in the Piet. After he learns where everything is in the rear seat
(should take at least 5 minutes) I'll ride in the front until he can land
so smoothly that you can't tell when the weight of the plane shifts from
the wings to the wheels. (I have done that only once in some 10,000
hours). It was in a Beech Baron 58 at night, no less. I honestly didn't
know exactly when we were on the ground. Chuck
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Steven Dortch <steven.d.dortch@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I thought I would do something unusual and change the subject line.
>
> First Just to beat the CG drum and refresh Pietenpeople as to the effects
> of CG.
> Aft CG gets the center of Gravity and the elevator too close together. As
> a result small elevator inputs result in larger noseup or down tendencies.
> Also If a Stall develops, an Aft CG causes the plane to enter and stay in
> the spin. An aft CG causes the plane to be recovery resistant.
>
> A forward CG places the elevator and CG far apart, causing the plane to
> become overly stable. The plane does not want to stall or spin, but it also
> does not want to raise it's nose and flare for landing. An approach that is
> too steep may not be arrested by pulling back on the stick! Resulting in a
> hard pancake landing.
>
> On my list of things to do is to do an accurate weight and balance with
> our EAA chapter scales (they come with an EAA member who is a W&B expert
> for $40. what a bargan.) I will do it: totally empty, with Oil and unusable
> gas, full nose tank, both tanks full, me on board and two on board.
>
> During the past several years I have weighed up to 210 and lost weight
> down to 183. I have crept back up to 195 lbs and am now creeping back
> down. I can affect my W&B the best by staying at a healthy weight. I am now
> old enough that I cannot out exercise my diet.
>
> Now for a quick question. I have always thought of my Pietenpol as a rear
> seat solo only plane. Are there any that can be soloed from the front?
>
> Blue Skies,
> Steve D
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: CG and rear seat solo |
When I first bought 2rn, I put my son in the front to start his lessons as we weren't
sure we were cg smart if we put him in the back. He's 130, I'm 180.
We did have to rig him up a throttle. He had NO instruments. He actually did
quite well, and within about 8 hours of him up there we found scales and checked
everything out carefully.
Surprising results. Us swapping seats only moved the cg 1 1/2 inches forward.
With me in the back the plane was sitting around 19 inches, with 20 generally
being considered max. So we were in great shape.
For fun I did calculate me in the front only, well, actually just measured it,
and in that configuration the cg was around 15 1/2, with 15 generally being considered
the limit. So it should be ok... I haven't tried!
I do have a few take offs and landings from the front, just not very fun! The
main problem I've seen with Piet landings is not pinning the tail... So an instructor
can help. However, if one were to let one get too far out of hand, someone
up front would be hard pressed to save a landing or ground loop.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447905#447905
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: CG and rear seat solo |
Steve; I just ran some what-ifs with the W&B spreadsheet for my airplane to see
what it would take to front-seat solo it. With minimum fuel (3 gal) and any
front-seat pilot weight I tried up to 435 lbs (where my plane hit max gross weight),
the CG was still a half-inch forward of the design range. That plus the
fact that you simply can't fit anyone very large into the front cockpit to fly
it solo from there, means it's a rear seat solo only because it will not be
within the CG range that is stated in my operating limitations (15" to 20" aft
of wing leading edge, or 25% to 33% of wing chord). Those flying with the Riblett
airfoil, GN-1s, and anything other than the conventional Air Camper with
Pietenpol airfoil will be different, of course.
My checkout in 41CC, the only Air Camper I've ever flown or ridden in, was from
the front seat. My instructor wanted me to fly it with stick, throttle, and
rudder only until I was ready to solo it, so that's what we did. Flew it off
of an unimproved dirt strip (if you want to call it that), about 20 miles from
the outskirts of the unimproved area of nowhere in the middle of the south Texas
brush country. It was remote. There was no other traffic in the pattern
;o) We were actually just two or three Texas-sized ranches away from Zapata County
Airport and when we got back to KAPY to let me try some takeoffs and landings
on a paved 5000' x 60' runway, I found it to be unbelievably easy compared
to the rough quarter-mile 'sendero' that I had just shot about 50 wobbly and
bouncy landings on. Operating off of the unimproved strip, once or twice Charlie
had to put his boots on the rudder bar under my seat and fix things before
we got tangled up in the cactus and mesquite brush, but after about a half-dozen
wild ones I got to where I was doing OK. The back of my shirt was drenched
with sweat for some reason though.
The point is, the airplane can be flown from the front seat and I sort of like
the experience of having the prop right in front of you and sitting directly under
the wing and on the CG, but at least in my airplane there are three controls
in the rear cockpit, inaccessible to the front-seater, that I consider to
be essential to the safety of flight: the ignition switch, the fuel shutoff knob,
and the carb heat control. For that reason alone, my airplane would have
to be placarded "Rear Seat Solo Only", but the W&B makes it inadvisable to attempt
to operate it solo from the front seat as well.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447920#447920
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