---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/13/15: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: Tank Shape/Support (Yahoo! Account Service) 2. 07:04 AM - CG and rear seat solo (Steven Dortch) 3. 12:42 PM - Re: CG and rear seat solo (Charles N. Campbell) 4. 02:05 PM - Re: CG and rear seat solo (tools) 5. 09:32 PM - Re: CG and rear seat solo (taildrags) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:37 AM PST US From: Yahoo! Account Service Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tank Shape/Support -----Original Message----- >From: taildrags >Sent: Oct 13, 2015 12:23 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tank Shape/Support It's much easier with paper and pencil than doing it with the welding torch, wrenches, shims, weights, and other kludges after it's built. > >-------- >Oscar Zuniga Great post Oscar, I had to look up kludges, for others who may not know kludge an ill-assorted collection of parts assembled to fulfill a particular purpose. Can also be a verb "Oscar had to kludge something together" Skip Building my fifth shop during my Piet project, hope to get the Piet into the new shop before winter. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:12 AM PST US From: Steven Dortch Subject: Pietenpol-List: CG and rear seat solo I thought I would do something unusual and change the subject line. First Just to beat the CG drum and refresh Pietenpeople as to the effects of CG. Aft CG gets the center of Gravity and the elevator too close together. As a result small elevator inputs result in larger noseup or down tendencies. Also If a Stall develops, an Aft CG causes the plane to enter and stay in the spin. An aft CG causes the plane to be recovery resistant. A forward CG places the elevator and CG far apart, causing the plane to become overly stable. The plane does not want to stall or spin, but it also does not want to raise it's nose and flare for landing. An approach that is too steep may not be arrested by pulling back on the stick! Resulting in a hard pancake landing. On my list of things to do is to do an accurate weight and balance with our EAA chapter scales (they come with an EAA member who is a W&B expert for $40. what a bargan.) I will do it: totally empty, with Oil and unusable gas, full nose tank, both tanks full, me on board and two on board. During the past several years I have weighed up to 210 and lost weight down to 183. I have crept back up to 195 lbs and am now creeping back down. I can affect my W&B the best by staying at a healthy weight. I am now old enough that I cannot out exercise my diet. Now for a quick question. I have always thought of my Pietenpol as a rear seat solo only plane. Are there any that can be soloed from the front? Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: CG and rear seat solo From: "Charles N. Campbell" Who would want to solo a Piet from the front seat? Mine has nothing up there except the seat, stick, and rudder pedals. I put those in so that I can let my grandson (a Marine pilot who retires next summer) get checked out in the Piet. After he learns where everything is in the rear seat (should take at least 5 minutes) I'll ride in the front until he can land so smoothly that you can't tell when the weight of the plane shifts from the wings to the wheels. (I have done that only once in some 10,000 hours). It was in a Beech Baron 58 at night, no less. I honestly didn't know exactly when we were on the ground. Chuck On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Steven Dortch wrote: > I thought I would do something unusual and change the subject line. > > First Just to beat the CG drum and refresh Pietenpeople as to the effects > of CG. > Aft CG gets the center of Gravity and the elevator too close together. As > a result small elevator inputs result in larger noseup or down tendencies. > Also If a Stall develops, an Aft CG causes the plane to enter and stay in > the spin. An aft CG causes the plane to be recovery resistant. > > A forward CG places the elevator and CG far apart, causing the plane to > become overly stable. The plane does not want to stall or spin, but it also > does not want to raise it's nose and flare for landing. An approach that is > too steep may not be arrested by pulling back on the stick! Resulting in a > hard pancake landing. > > On my list of things to do is to do an accurate weight and balance with > our EAA chapter scales (they come with an EAA member who is a W&B expert > for $40. what a bargan.) I will do it: totally empty, with Oil and unusable > gas, full nose tank, both tanks full, me on board and two on board. > > During the past several years I have weighed up to 210 and lost weight > down to 183. I have crept back up to 195 lbs and am now creeping back > down. I can affect my W&B the best by staying at a healthy weight. I am now > old enough that I cannot out exercise my diet. > > Now for a quick question. I have always thought of my Pietenpol as a rear > seat solo only plane. Are there any that can be soloed from the front? > > Blue Skies, > Steve D > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:14 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG and rear seat solo From: "tools" When I first bought 2rn, I put my son in the front to start his lessons as we weren't sure we were cg smart if we put him in the back. He's 130, I'm 180. We did have to rig him up a throttle. He had NO instruments. He actually did quite well, and within about 8 hours of him up there we found scales and checked everything out carefully. Surprising results. Us swapping seats only moved the cg 1 1/2 inches forward. With me in the back the plane was sitting around 19 inches, with 20 generally being considered max. So we were in great shape. For fun I did calculate me in the front only, well, actually just measured it, and in that configuration the cg was around 15 1/2, with 15 generally being considered the limit. So it should be ok... I haven't tried! I do have a few take offs and landings from the front, just not very fun! The main problem I've seen with Piet landings is not pinning the tail... So an instructor can help. However, if one were to let one get too far out of hand, someone up front would be hard pressed to save a landing or ground loop. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447905#447905 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:19 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: CG and rear seat solo From: "taildrags" Steve; I just ran some what-ifs with the W&B spreadsheet for my airplane to see what it would take to front-seat solo it. With minimum fuel (3 gal) and any front-seat pilot weight I tried up to 435 lbs (where my plane hit max gross weight), the CG was still a half-inch forward of the design range. That plus the fact that you simply can't fit anyone very large into the front cockpit to fly it solo from there, means it's a rear seat solo only because it will not be within the CG range that is stated in my operating limitations (15" to 20" aft of wing leading edge, or 25% to 33% of wing chord). Those flying with the Riblett airfoil, GN-1s, and anything other than the conventional Air Camper with Pietenpol airfoil will be different, of course. My checkout in 41CC, the only Air Camper I've ever flown or ridden in, was from the front seat. My instructor wanted me to fly it with stick, throttle, and rudder only until I was ready to solo it, so that's what we did. Flew it off of an unimproved dirt strip (if you want to call it that), about 20 miles from the outskirts of the unimproved area of nowhere in the middle of the south Texas brush country. It was remote. There was no other traffic in the pattern ;o) We were actually just two or three Texas-sized ranches away from Zapata County Airport and when we got back to KAPY to let me try some takeoffs and landings on a paved 5000' x 60' runway, I found it to be unbelievably easy compared to the rough quarter-mile 'sendero' that I had just shot about 50 wobbly and bouncy landings on. Operating off of the unimproved strip, once or twice Charlie had to put his boots on the rudder bar under my seat and fix things before we got tangled up in the cactus and mesquite brush, but after about a half-dozen wild ones I got to where I was doing OK. The back of my shirt was drenched with sweat for some reason though. The point is, the airplane can be flown from the front seat and I sort of like the experience of having the prop right in front of you and sitting directly under the wing and on the CG, but at least in my airplane there are three controls in the rear cockpit, inaccessible to the front-seater, that I consider to be essential to the safety of flight: the ignition switch, the fuel shutoff knob, and the carb heat control. For that reason alone, my airplane would have to be placarded "Rear Seat Solo Only", but the W&B makes it inadvisable to attempt to operate it solo from the front seat as well. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447920#447920 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.