Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:29 AM - Re: gussets grain orientation - empenage (rudder,fin,elevator,s (taildrags)
2. 02:18 PM - Gusset plywood grain orientation (Fairfield, Mike)
3. 02:52 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (Scott Knowlton)
4. 03:08 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (Boatright, Jeffrey)
5. 03:21 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (Fairfield, Mike)
6. 08:21 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (taildrags)
7. 09:22 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (tools)
8. 09:57 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (taildrags)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: gussets grain orientation - empenage (rudder,fin,elevator,s |
I have seen gussets made by cutting discs of plywood and then either cutting the
disc into quarter-rounds or half-rounds as necessary to gusset the joint. I
thought it looked very much nicer than angled pieces, although I will grant that
it adds nothing structurally except weight. I just thought it looked nice,
especially if the gusset is cut from a color of wood that contrasts with the
framing members.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452228#452228
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| Subject: | Gusset plywood grain orientation |
Good afternoon everyone,
This is my first post as well. I am just starting to build
a Pietenpol, long fuselage and a three piece wing. I'm not trying to be s
mart or rude, but don't you think that since plywood usually has an odd num
ber of plies (3, 5, 7, etc.) that it would be a good idea to have that extr
a ply holding things together by having the grain running perpendicular to
the axis or line of separation?
I have been a VERY meticulous (commonly known as anal) mech
anic for over thirty-five years, and I tend to study things too much before
going ahead, but the above idea just seemed to make sense to me. Please f
eel free to disagree with me. I said I am meticulous, however meticulous d
oesn't always mean right.
If you have any questions, please feel free to call.
Thanks, Mike.
Mike Fairfield
Technical Specialist
Hewitt Equipment Limited
Heavy Equipment Division
61 Jean-Proulx
Hull ,Quebec
Canada J8Z 1W2
Tel: 819-770-1601 Ext. 4873
Cell: 819-598-3561
mfairfield@hewitt.ca
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| Subject: | Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation |
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| Subject: | Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation |
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| Subject: | Gusset plywood grain orientation |
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| Subject: | Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation |
Disclaimer: I am not a structural engineer but I think you could spend a lot of
time analyzing the forces on each joint that you're going to apply gussets to,
optimize the direction of the grain of the plywood gusset, and not improve the
competency of the wood structure of an Air Camper perceptibly.
Picture a side view of one of the fuselage sides. At any given framing member
intersection there are verticals and there are diagonals intersecting the upper
and lower longerons. Are you going to optimize the gusset grain direction for
the vertical, the horizontal, or the diagonal? Each of them has forces acting
on it. One might argue that without analyzing the forces at each connection
to determine which is the greatest, the best compromise might be to orient
the grain at 45 degrees.
The point is, the gusset prevents the connection from rotating such that it stresses
the glue joints. The 3-ply gusset material just needs to be stiff enough
to keep from buckling as the connection attempts to rotate, and since the structure
is triangulated into a truss with diagonals, not a lot of rotation can
ever actually occur. This is one of those details that people can over-think.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452243#452243
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| Subject: | Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation |
To add just one more view point from a different perspective...
There's not one joint in the structure that will care about the orientation of
the gussets to well beyond design limits.
At some point joints will fail. I've seen, inspected, dismantled and repaired
ALL of the joints associated with the landing gear attach points AFTER they had
all been ripped apart due to ground loops and hard landings. Even in those
well beyond design limit incidences not ONE gusset failed. Even the ones that
were very poorly glued and fitted. They ALL pushed the failure point outside
of their confines, which is to say at the point immediately outside of the gusseted
area, the naked longeron.
Caveat, wood fuse, wood gear. Both epoxy and resorcinol.
Furthermore, I've repaired a number of wing ribs damaged by wing tip contact with
the ground during a ground loop at high speed, again, not one gusset failure.
Each failure was immediately adjacent, but outside, of the gusset. Similar
failure points had the gussets oriented both possible ways. In one rib, I discovered
a couple joints were missing opposing gussets, and the failure still
occurred outside the (one half) gusseted area.
Even further furthermore, also repaired and inspected a broken horiz stab that
hit the ground during a ground loop. The front spar broke very close to but outside
of the center gusset. It had a compression failure. The most clear example
I've ever seen. The point is here, I believe the compression failure is
more of a elastic/plastic deformation issue, whereas many of the others very
well might have been in the brittle fracture domain, hit so hard so fast as to
basically just shatter. No matter the type of failure, the gussets seemed to
hold regardless.
As these were were beyond design limit failures, the forces coming at them were
quite random, some aligned with where forces should come from, others not. Not
one single gusset failed.
As mentioned the quality of the joint matters more than gusset ply/grain orientation.
Still, wouldn't try my hardest to go against the grain of common sense,
but basically, it won't matter. But even in the quality of the joint, there
is forgiveness. Do your level best, have someone you trust mentor you to some
degree, and press on.
In all of this, joints beyond the failures, many which I had to cut apart to get
to a good point to scarf longerons, none showed any signs of any compromise
what so ever. And they clearly had to take some high loads after the adjacent
joint failed.
Tools
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452245#452245
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| Subject: | Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation |
Thanks, Tools, but I'll go one step further. I spent quite a bit of time repairing damage and upgrading things on 41CC after the nose-over incident when the landing gear broke a weld and collapsed in a precautionary landing. I saw damage in various places outside of gusseted areas and in one case, at a joint where there were no gussets. The vertical load of the fuel tank support straps on a fuselage crossmember that had triangular wedge 'buttresses' but no gussets pulled that member off the verticals by shearing at the glue line. You can see the crossmember that I'm talking about here: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/Image-10.JPG , and note that there were no gusset plates on those joints. Those joints were completely redone in the repairs.
There were various other areas that needed attention, but NONE at a gusseted connection.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452246#452246
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