---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/24/16: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:29 AM - Re: gussets grain orientation - empenage (rudder,fin,elevator,s (taildrags) 2. 02:18 PM - Gusset plywood grain orientation (Fairfield, Mike) 3. 02:52 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (Scott Knowlton) 4. 03:08 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (Boatright, Jeffrey) 5. 03:21 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (Fairfield, Mike) 6. 08:21 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (taildrags) 7. 09:22 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (tools) 8. 09:57 PM - Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation (taildrags) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:29:51 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: gussets grain orientation - empenage (rudder,fin,elevator,s From: "taildrags" I have seen gussets made by cutting discs of plywood and then either cutting the disc into quarter-rounds or half-rounds as necessary to gusset the joint. I thought it looked very much nicer than angled pieces, although I will grant that it adds nothing structurally except weight. I just thought it looked nice, especially if the gusset is cut from a color of wood that contrasts with the framing members. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452228#452228 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:41 PM PST US From: "Fairfield, Mike" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Gusset plywood grain orientation Good afternoon everyone, This is my first post as well. I am just starting to build a Pietenpol, long fuselage and a three piece wing. I'm not trying to be s mart or rude, but don't you think that since plywood usually has an odd num ber of plies (3, 5, 7, etc.) that it would be a good idea to have that extr a ply holding things together by having the grain running perpendicular to the axis or line of separation? I have been a VERY meticulous (commonly known as anal) mech anic for over thirty-five years, and I tend to study things too much before going ahead, but the above idea just seemed to make sense to me. Please f eel free to disagree with me. I said I am meticulous, however meticulous d oesn't always mean right. If you have any questions, please feel free to call. Thanks, Mike. Mike Fairfield Technical Specialist Hewitt Equipment Limited Heavy Equipment Division 61 Jean-Proulx Hull ,Quebec Canada J8Z 1W2 Tel: 819-770-1601 Ext. 4873 Cell: 819-598-3561 mfairfield@hewitt.ca ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Gusset plywood grain orientation From: Scott Knowlton TWlrZQ0KDQpXZWxjb21lIHRvIHRoZSBncm91cCEgIEkgdGhpbmsgbW9zdCBidWlsZGVycyB3aWxs IGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdGhlIHN0cnVjdHVyZSBvZiB0aGUgUGlldGVucG9sIGlzIGV4dHJlbWVseSBv dmVyIGJ1aWx0LiAgVGhpcyBpc24ndCB0byBzYXkgdGhhdCBjYXJlIGFuZCBhdHRlbnRpb24gc2hv dWxkbid0IGJlIHBhaWQgdG8gZ29vZCBidWlsZGluZyBwcmFjdGljZXMsIHByZWNpc2UgdGlnaHQg bWl0cmUgam9pbnRzIGFuZCB3ZWxsIGNsYW1wZWQgZ3Vzc2V0cyAobm90IHRvIG1lbnRpb24gcHJv cGVybHkgbWl4ZWQgVC04OCBhbmQgYSBjdXJlIHRlbXBlcmF0dXJlIHRoYXQgaXMgd2FybSBlbm91 Z2guLi4uKS4gSXQgY2VydGFpbmx5IHdvbid0IGh1cnQgdG8gaGF2ZSB0aGUgbWFqb3JpdHkgb2Yg 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analyzing the forces on each joint that you're going to apply gussets to, optimize the direction of the grain of the plywood gusset, and not improve the competency of the wood structure of an Air Camper perceptibly. Picture a side view of one of the fuselage sides. At any given framing member intersection there are verticals and there are diagonals intersecting the upper and lower longerons. Are you going to optimize the gusset grain direction for the vertical, the horizontal, or the diagonal? Each of them has forces acting on it. One might argue that without analyzing the forces at each connection to determine which is the greatest, the best compromise might be to orient the grain at 45 degrees. The point is, the gusset prevents the connection from rotating such that it stresses the glue joints. The 3-ply gusset material just needs to be stiff enough to keep from buckling as the connection attempts to rotate, and since the structure is triangulated into a truss with diagonals, not a lot of rotation can ever actually occur. This is one of those details that people can over-think. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452243#452243 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:18 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation From: "tools" To add just one more view point from a different perspective... There's not one joint in the structure that will care about the orientation of the gussets to well beyond design limits. At some point joints will fail. I've seen, inspected, dismantled and repaired ALL of the joints associated with the landing gear attach points AFTER they had all been ripped apart due to ground loops and hard landings. Even in those well beyond design limit incidences not ONE gusset failed. Even the ones that were very poorly glued and fitted. They ALL pushed the failure point outside of their confines, which is to say at the point immediately outside of the gusseted area, the naked longeron. Caveat, wood fuse, wood gear. Both epoxy and resorcinol. Furthermore, I've repaired a number of wing ribs damaged by wing tip contact with the ground during a ground loop at high speed, again, not one gusset failure. Each failure was immediately adjacent, but outside, of the gusset. Similar failure points had the gussets oriented both possible ways. In one rib, I discovered a couple joints were missing opposing gussets, and the failure still occurred outside the (one half) gusseted area. Even further furthermore, also repaired and inspected a broken horiz stab that hit the ground during a ground loop. The front spar broke very close to but outside of the center gusset. It had a compression failure. The most clear example I've ever seen. The point is here, I believe the compression failure is more of a elastic/plastic deformation issue, whereas many of the others very well might have been in the brittle fracture domain, hit so hard so fast as to basically just shatter. No matter the type of failure, the gussets seemed to hold regardless. As these were were beyond design limit failures, the forces coming at them were quite random, some aligned with where forces should come from, others not. Not one single gusset failed. As mentioned the quality of the joint matters more than gusset ply/grain orientation. Still, wouldn't try my hardest to go against the grain of common sense, but basically, it won't matter. But even in the quality of the joint, there is forgiveness. Do your level best, have someone you trust mentor you to some degree, and press on. In all of this, joints beyond the failures, many which I had to cut apart to get to a good point to scarf longerons, none showed any signs of any compromise what so ever. And they clearly had to take some high loads after the adjacent joint failed. Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452245#452245 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Gusset plywood grain orientation From: "taildrags" Thanks, Tools, but I'll go one step further. I spent quite a bit of time repairing damage and upgrading things on 41CC after the nose-over incident when the landing gear broke a weld and collapsed in a precautionary landing. I saw damage in various places outside of gusseted areas and in one case, at a joint where there were no gussets. The vertical load of the fuel tank support straps on a fuselage crossmember that had triangular wedge 'buttresses' but no gussets pulled that member off the verticals by shearing at the glue line. You can see the crossmember that I'm talking about here: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/Image-10.JPG , and note that there were no gusset plates on those joints. Those joints were completely redone in the repairs. There were various other areas that needed attention, but NONE at a gusseted connection. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452246#452246 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.