---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/29/16: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: Re: Pauls Piet Build (Greg Cardinal) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Re: Pauls Piet Build (Charles Burkholder) 3. 06:23 AM - Fuel tanks (John Franklin) 4. 07:18 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Jack Philips) 5. 07:44 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Fairfield, Mike) 6. 08:00 AM - Re: Re: Pauls Piet Build (Hans van der Voort) 7. 08:10 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Hans van der Voort) 8. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Pauls Piet Build (Ray Krause) 9. 09:49 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Jack) 10. 10:01 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Bill Church) 11. 10:33 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (vic groah) 12. 10:39 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Jack Philips) 13. 11:35 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Jack) 14. 11:47 AM - Re: Fuel tanks (Fairfield, Mike) 15. 04:28 PM - Re: Re: Riblett 613.5 plans (Tony Crawford) 16. 09:10 PM - Re: Riblett 613.5 plans (taildrags) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:23 AM PST US From: "Greg Cardinal" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pauls Piet Build Three bolts would have been enough. My technical counselor likes to use the British engineering manuals which are sometimes more conservative when it comes to strength of materials. There are several Pietenpols flying around using two bolts in their Carlson struts as Ray will be using so that's proof that two bolts will work. If I were using two bolts I would check the struts for bolt hole elongation at each condition inspection. Greg Cardinal -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of taildrags Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pauls Piet Build --> Ray; Now look, I'm not trying to cause trouble here, but I'm an engineer and I question stuff. You mentioned that you were using two AN3 bolts to attach each end of your lift struts to the strut end fittings. Then I see Greg's picture showing *four* bolts through the strut and fitting on his airplane. I have not done the analysis of the shear where the AN3 bolts go through the Carlson aluminum struts but it might be useful to do a little pencil and paper work to study that. Two bolts might not be enough to keep the bolts from elongating the holes under design stress, and it's not like you don't have long enough end fittings to permit you to add more bolts through the strut and fitting to provide more pull-out strength if it's needed. Worst case, it will cost you some additional AN3 bolts and hardware. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454292#454292 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:56 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pauls Piet Build From: Charles Burkholder Me and Scott Knowlton are doing the same method with the Carlson struts. Our friend Brian Kenney did the analysis and calculated that there should be 3 bolts used. Charles On 3/28/2016 11:59 PM, taildrags wrote: > > Ray; > > Now look, I'm not trying to cause trouble here, but I'm an engineer and I question stuff. You mentioned that you were using two AN3 bolts to attach each end of your lift struts to the strut end fittings. Then I see Greg's picture showing *four* bolts through the strut and fitting on his airplane. I have not done the analysis of the shear where the AN3 bolts go through the Carlson aluminum struts but it might be useful to do a little pencil and paper work to study that. Two bolts might not be enough to keep the bolts from elongating the holes under design stress, and it's not like you don't have long enough end fittings to permit you to add more bolts through the strut and fitting to provide more pull-out strength if it's needed. Worst case, it will cost you some additional AN3 bolts and hardware. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454292#454292 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:34 AM PST US From: John Franklin Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams? Would this method be acceptable? Thanks, John Franklin Prairie Aire 4TA0 Needville, TX ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:54 AM PST US From: "Jack Philips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of terneplate, which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and 80% lead. It soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which is coated with zinc is much more difficult and requires special solder alloys and special flux. One method is shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Imxj2_nXw I riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG welded around all the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I found 39 pinhole leaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding over those 39 leaks I only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and it has been leak free ever since. However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and use the Flamemaster Dyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for my RV-10. This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it must be pretty successful since there are literally thousands of airplanes flying using this method. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good fuel tank with this method, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like most welded tanks do (mine included). Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams? Would this method be acceptable? Thanks, John Franklin Prairie Aire 4TA0 Needville, TX ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:41 AM PST US From: "Fairfield, Mike" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Good morning Jack, Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting. I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty. By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant. Thanks, Mike. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:18 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks --> Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of terneplate, which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and 80% lead. It soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which is coated with zinc is much more difficult and requires special solder alloys and special flux. One method is shown here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Du7Imxj2-5FnXw&d=CwIDaQ&c=epcZb5jdh1ysHc2TC_uZEMpi5Xp3bPQPSZatc6SDw3A&r=hRt1T_6xXLTFw-Pi77z3ka1Hyoflt0RLKFhpWJWpHdk&m=BvruWqxPvEdKv231NBgax6irNcRiKLg65IFRcwX8Agc&s=CSlxupiocGrEqE-_kfDsU1JkXn3xMpEeeyVXVXTZZ0k&e= I riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG welded around all the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I found 39 pinhole leaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding over those 39 leaks I only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and it has been leak free ever since. However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and use the Flamemaster Dyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for my RV-10. This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it must be pretty successful since there are literally thousands of airplanes flying using this method. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good fuel tank with this method, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like most welded tanks do (mine included). Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams? Would this method be acceptable? Thanks, John Franklin Prairie Aire 4TA0 Needville, TX ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:49 AM PST US From: Hans van der Voort Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pauls Piet Build I recommend using at least three AN 3 bolts or two AN 4 and torque down wit h proper torque setting.Do not rely on the bolt diameter in shear.But use t he clamp friction to take the load, this avoids elongation of the holeMake sure you have a tight fit between strut insert and strut before torque is a pplied on boltUse flat washers under bolt and nut to create enough surface area.=C2-Remember that extra bolt and nut weighs a lot less than a fancy paint job,=C2-and a fancy paint job does not make you plane safer.=C2-J ust my 2 cents=C2-Hans van der Voort=C2-NX15KV with welded struts From: Charles Burkholder To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pauls Piet Build ox.net> Me and Scott Knowlton are doing the same method with the Carlson struts. Our friend Brian Kenney did the analysis and calculated that there should be 3 bolts used. Charles On 3/28/2016 11:59 PM, taildrags wrote: > > Ray; > > Now look, I'm not trying to cause trouble here, but I'm an engineer and I question stuff.=C2- You mentioned that you were using two AN3 bolts to a ttach each end of your lift struts to the strut end fittings.=C2- Then I see Greg's picture showing *four* bolts through the strut and fitting on hi s airplane.=C2- I have not done the analysis of the shear where the AN3 b olts go through the Carlson aluminum struts but it might be useful to do a little pencil and paper work to study that.=C2- Two bolts might not be en ough to keep the bolts from elongating the holes under design stress, and i t's not like you don't have long enough end fittings to permit you to add m ore bolts through the strut and fitting to provide more pull-out strength i f it's needed.=C2- Worst case, it will cost you some additional AN3 bolts and hardware. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454292#454292 > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:31 AM PST US From: Hans van der Voort Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks John,=C2-The oldies used a lot of terne plate, essentially steel with lea d/tin coating.It would solder real good as the coating was the same materia l as standard Solder.=C2-Galvanized steel is a zinc based coating, so you will need a zinc based Solder.=C2-Another alternative is Aluminum rivete d tank (solid rivets) and use a fuel tank sealer.=C2-Hans van der Voort =C2-NX15KV with aluminum welded=C2-tank(s) From: John Franklin To: Piet_List Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:22 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum.=C2- Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams?=C2- Would this method be acceptable? Thanks, John Franklin Prairie Aire 4TA0 Needville, TX =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:44 AM PST US From: Ray Krause Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pauls Piet Build Oscar and others, I miss-typed. The strut ends are secured by two AN4 bolts. I'm not an engineer so I welcome the comments and help. I will add another bolt as it will be very easy to do and there is plenty of material, as Greg pointed out. My fear was that too many bolts might create a weak point in the strut where all the holes were lined up. Now the strut end is attached to the wing with ONLY two AN5 bolts. Maybe the weakest point will now be the weld joint on the U-joint? Any comments are gratefully welcome. What a great Forum, Ray Krause Sent from my iPad > On Mar 28, 2016, at 9:59 PM, taildrags wrote: > > > Ray; > > Now look, I'm not trying to cause trouble here, but I'm an engineer and I question stuff. You mentioned that you were using two AN3 bolts to attach each end of your lift struts to the strut end fittings. Then I see Greg's picture showing *four* bolts through the strut and fitting on his airplane. I have not done the analysis of the shear where the AN3 bolts go through the Carlson aluminum struts but it might be useful to do a little pencil and paper work to study that. Two bolts might not be enough to keep the bolts from elongating the holes under design stress, and it's not like you don't have long enough end fittings to permit you to add more bolts through the strut and fitting to provide more pull-out strength if it's needed. Worst case, it will cost you some additional AN3 bolts and hardware. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454292#454292 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks From: Jack Mike go to Van's RV site, they have it... Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Fairfield, Mike wrote: > > > Good morning Jack, > > Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting. I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty. By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant. > > Thanks, Mike. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:18 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > --> > > Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of terneplate, which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and 80% lead. It soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which is coated with zinc is much more difficult and requires special solder alloys and special flux. One method is shown here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Du7Imxj2-5FnXw&d=CwIDaQ&c=epcZb5jdh1ysHc2TC_uZEMpi5Xp3bPQPSZatc6SDw3A&r=hRt1T_6xXLTFw-Pi77z3ka1Hyoflt0RLKFhpWJWpHdk&m=BvruWqxPvEdKv231NBgax6irNcRiKLg65IFRcwX8Agc&s=CSlxupiocGrEqE-_kfDsU1JkXn3xMpEeeyVXVXTZZ0k&e= > > I riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG welded around all the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I found 39 pinhole leaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding over those 39 leaks I only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and it has been leak free ever since. > > However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and use the Flamemaster Dyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for my RV-10. This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it must be pretty successful since there are literally thousands of airplanes flying using this method. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good fuel tank with this method, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like most welded tanks do (mine included). > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:23 AM > To: Piet_List > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > > Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams? > Would this method be acceptable? > > Thanks, > John Franklin > Prairie Aire 4TA0 > Needville, TX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:57 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuel tanks From: "Bill Church" Mike, Following is a link to the Vans website. You can buy the sealant from them: https://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1459270708-404-534&browse=misc&product=proseal Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454324#454324 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks From: vic groah On galvanized soldered tanks I have a 1907 car that has a galvanized riveted and soldered gas tank that has stood over 100 years of intense vibration of a two hundred cubic inch two cylinder engine and still does not leak No sealer needed. It is just heavy. We make our piet tank of aluminum sheet and welded it together and need no sealer but put on an aircraft epoxy sealer on the joints out side just to be safe. No problems so far. Much less weight. On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Jack wrote: > > Mike go to Van's RV site, they have it... > > Sent from my iPad > Jack Textor > > > On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Fairfield, Mike > wrote: > > > MFairfield@hewitt.ca> > > > > Good morning Jack, > > > > Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds > interesting. I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal > and came up empty. By any chance would you have the product number stowe d > away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find t he > proper sealant. > > > > Thanks, Mike. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:18 AM > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > > > --> > > > > Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of terneplate, > which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and 80% lead. It > soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which is coated with zin c > is much more difficult and requires special solder alloys and special > flux. One method is shown here: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_wat ch-3Fv-3Du7Imxj2-5FnXw&d=CwIDaQ&c=epcZb5jdh1ysHc2TC_uZEMpi5Xp3bPQPSZatc 6SDw3A&r=hRt1T_6xXLTFw-Pi77z3ka1Hyoflt0RLKFhpWJWpHdk&m=BvruWqxPvEdKv231 NBgax6irNcRiKLg65IFRcwX8Agc&s=CSlxupiocGrEqE-_kfDsU1JkXn3xMpEeeyVXVXTZZ0k &e > > > > I riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG > welded around all the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I > found 39 pinhole leaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding > over those 39 leaks I only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and i t > has been leak free ever since. > > > > However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and us e > the Flamemaster Dyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for > my RV-10. This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it > must be pretty successful since there are literally thousands of airplane s > flying using this method. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good > fuel tank with this method, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like > most welded tanks do (mine included). > > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin > > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:23 AM > > To: Piet_List > > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > > > > > > Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made > of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering > the seams? > > Would this method be acceptable? > > > > Thanks, > > John Franklin > > Prairie Aire 4TA0 > > Needville, TX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:09 AM PST US From: "Jack Philips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks The product is made by Flamemaster and the model number is CS-3204. The best place to buy it (at about 1/3 the price of Vans Aircraft) is SkyGeek. Here is a link to that page of the SkyGeek catalog: http://search.skygeek.com/?vwcatalog=stylespilotshop&keywords=flamemaster+cs+3204&x=0&y=0 Don't order it until you are ready to use it. It has about a 6 month shelf life (although that can be extended somewhat by keeping it a freezer until ready to use it). It is critical that it be measured very accurately, by weight. It is very sticky and gets on everything, and has a fairly short potlife (a couple of hours, as I recall), but it works extremely well and remains pliable for at least 25 years, which is how long Vans has been using it. They originally used a product called Pro-Seal (and many people call the Flamemaster product Pro-Seal just because it sounds like a good name - who would call a fuel tank product Flamemaster?), but the original Pro-Seal product would get hard and brittle after about 10 years, as happened in my old RV-4's tanks. Hope this helps, Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fairfield, Mike Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:41 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks --> Good morning Jack, Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting. I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty. By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant. Thanks, Mike. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:18 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks --> Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of terneplate, which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and 80% lead. It soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which is coated with zinc is much more difficult and requires special solder alloys and special flux. One method is shown here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Du7Imxj2-5FnXw&d=CwIDaQ&c=epcZb5jdh1ysHc2TC_uZEMpi5Xp3bPQPSZatc6SDw3A&r=hRt1T_6xXLTFw-Pi77z3ka1Hyoflt0RLKFhpWJWpHdk&m=BvruWqxPvEdKv231NBgax6irNcRiKLg65IFRcwX8Agc&s=CSlxupiocGrEqE-_kfDsU1JkXn3xMpEeeyVXVXTZZ0k&e= I riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG welded around all the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I found 39 pinhole leaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding over those 39 leaks I only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and it has been leak free ever since. However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and use the Flamemaster Dyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for my RV-10. This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it must be pretty successful since there are literally thousands of airplanes flying using this method. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good fuel tank with this method, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like most welded tanks do (mine included). Jack Phillips NX899JP Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:23 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams? Would this method be acceptable? Thanks, John Franklin Prairie Aire 4TA0 Needville, TX ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks From: Jack Mike one other thought on Flamemaster... I cut plenty of blue paper shop towels in 2 inch squares for cleaning up spots with acetone. Kept it somewhat clean. Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Fairfield, Mike wrote: > > > Good morning Jack, > > Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting. I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty. By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant. > > Thanks, Mike. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Philips > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:18 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > --> > > Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of terneplate, which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and 80% lead. It soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which is coated with zinc is much more difficult and requires special solder alloys and special flux. One method is shown here: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Du7Imxj2-5FnXw&d=CwIDaQ&c=epcZb5jdh1ysHc2TC_uZEMpi5Xp3bPQPSZatc6SDw3A&r=hRt1T_6xXLTFw-Pi77z3ka1Hyoflt0RLKFhpWJWpHdk&m=BvruWqxPvEdKv231NBgax6irNcRiKLg65IFRcwX8Agc&s=CSlxupiocGrEqE-_kfDsU1JkXn3xMpEeeyVXVXTZZ0k&e= > > I riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG welded around all the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I found 39 pinhole leaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding over those 39 leaks I only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and it has been leak free ever since. > > However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and use the Flamemaster Dyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for my RV-10. This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it must be pretty successful since there are literally thousands of airplanes flying using this method. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good fuel tank with this method, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like most welded tanks do (mine included). > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Franklin > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:23 AM > To: Piet_List > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > > Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams? > Would this method be acceptable? > > Thanks, > John Franklin > Prairie Aire 4TA0 > Needville, TX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:10 AM PST US From: "Fairfield, Mike" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Thank you all Gentlemen, I will be making a larger fuel tank in a larger center section and was deliberating different materials, terne plate is more rare than a nun's fart around here, and I didn't really want to go with fibreglass. With the aluminum, I was just worried about potential leaks around the seams. With this material, I will sleep with a clear conscience.... Thanks again Gents, Mike. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks Mike one other thought on Flamemaster... I cut plenty of blue paper shop towels in 2 inch squares for cleaning up spots with acetone. Kept it somewhat clean. Sent from my iPad Jack Textor > On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:40 AM, Fairfield, Mike wrote: > > --> > > Good morning Jack, > > Your method of riveting the 5052 aluminum and sealing it sounds interesting. I checked on the Flamemaster web site and entered dyna-seal and came up empty. By any chance would you have the product number stowed away somewhere? They have many different products and I wanted to find the proper sealant. > > Thanks, Mike. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack > Philips > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 10:18 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > --> > > Acceptable but very heavy. The original tanks were made of > terneplate, which is steel sheet coated with an alloy of 20% tin and > 80% lead. It soldered very well. Soldering galvanized steel, which > is coated with zinc is much more difficult and requires special solder > alloys and special flux. One method is shown here: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_wa > tch-3Fv-3Du7Imxj2-5FnXw&d=CwIDaQ&c=epcZb5jdh1ysHc2TC_uZEMpi5Xp3bPQPSZa > tc6SDw3A&r=hRt1T_6xXLTFw-Pi77z3ka1Hyoflt0RLKFhpWJWpHdk&m=BvruWqxPvEdKv > 231NBgax6irNcRiKLg65IFRcwX8Agc&s=CSlxupiocGrEqE-_kfDsU1JkXn3xMpEeeyVXV > XTZZ0k&e > > I riveted my tank together out of 5052 aluminum alloy, then had it TIG welded around all the edges and over each rivet. During leak testing I found 39 pinhole leaks and took it back to the welder. After re-welding over those 39 leaks I only found 9 leaks. Third time was the charm and it has been leak free ever since. > > However, if I were to do it again I would just rivet it together and use the Flamemaster Dyna-Seal product that I used when building the tanks for my RV-10. This is what Van's Aircraft uses for all their fuel tanks and it must be pretty successful since there are literally thousands of airplanes flying using this method. It is easy (if somewhat messy) to build a good fuel tank with this method, and the tank doesn't warp during welding like most welded tanks do (mine included). > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John > Franklin > Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 9:23 AM > To: Piet_List > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fuel tanks > > --> > > Most of the fuel tanks I've seen mentioned on this forum have been made of aluminum. Has anyone used galvanized steel and sealed it by soldering the seams? > Would this method be acceptable? > > Thanks, > John Franklin > Prairie Aire 4TA0 > Needville, TX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 613.5 plans From: Tony Crawford Hello Terry, Could you please fix your attachment for the RIBLETT. Thank You Sir! Tony On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 7:42 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com> > > Ken, > > In this day of internet and email, I can't imagine why anyone would need > to mail you a copy of the airfoil. Also, it can be found in numerous > websites as matters of public record. > > Here is the copy I made for my ribs. Notice that there is no angle built > in. By that I mean the spars and verticals are perpendicular to the chord > line. > > This is a full sized copy, and can be taken down to your local Kinko's and > printed on their big printing machine for a couple of bucks a copy. > > It is free for anyone to use, but obviously done so at your own risk, much > like everything else in experimental aviation. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454260#454260 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_6135_205.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:23 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett 613.5 plans From: "taildrags" Reading the thread about the Riblett airfoil, I went back to the archives and searched on 'Riblett' and got almost 700 posts, so it's been discussed quite a bit. I was looking specifically for how and why we ended up with the 613.5 rather than the 612 and found that I had made a few posts on the subject myself. I don't know the answer to why the 613.5 came to be (roughly 13.5% thickness airfoil, 8" deep, rather than 12% or about 7-1/4" thickness), but whatever the case, it's been test-flown and the performance was documented by P.F. Beck in a post to this list and in a writeup in the BPA Newsletter. When P.F. concluded that there was very little apparent difference in performance between the Riblett and the Piet airfoil, various comments were made about how it may not have been a fair test but that's not worth bringing up. I will, however, cut and paste my response to P.F.'s post: "I wouldn't say that there is little to no benefit of using the Riblett. Here's a snip from a post that I made in May of 2008 on the subject: "The Riblett "612" airfoil is very similar to the NACA 4412 airfoil that has also been discussed here. Both of those airfoils are deeper than the Pietenpol, allowing for lighter spars and ribs, increased volume where a fuel tank can go in the wing, and both of them have less undercamber than the Pietenpol airfoil. With a 60" chord, a 12% airfoil is a bit over 7" deep as compared with the Pietenpol at 4" deep. There is an image of the NACA and Riblett airfoils at http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/airfoils.jpg" I wanted to point out that Terry mentions the spars and rib verticals being perpendicular to the chord line, with no angle built in. If you take the Riblett airfoil outline and lay it over the Pietenpol rib drawing, you'll soon be scratching your head about how to make the Riblett fit the spar spacing and how the chord line should be laid out relative to the airplane's longerons. Bill Church posted an excellent statement of the angle of incidence comparison in a post in July of 2014. Needless to say, then, when you change to the Riblett airfoil, there are various adjustments that need to be made. It's not exactly "swap and go fly". -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454355#454355 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.