Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:04 AM - Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (AircamperN11MS)
2. 06:12 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS)
3. 08:13 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools)
4. 08:25 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (aabreu)
5. 08:34 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS)
6. 09:04 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 05/05/16 (dndboyd2@gmail.com)
7. 09:19 AM - Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (TriScout)
8. 10:16 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools)
9. 10:31 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS)
10. 11:59 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tkreiner)
11. 12:12 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tkreiner)
12. 12:51 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (aabreu)
13. 01:08 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (aabreu)
14. 01:50 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools)
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Subject: | Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In |
I wish I had been there. Great pics.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455919#455919
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
Regarding Tools negative G comment. I hadn't thought of that either, but.....
I am now thinking that the three piece wing like I have would be more likely
to do that then a single piece wing. The three piece wing has a built in hinge
point just outside the center section. I am thinking that the single spar
would actually be stronger.
Does this plane have a three piece wing?
Very interesting observation Tools.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455921#455921
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
Given the moment the wing strut has, I don't think a one piece would help. Wood
doesn't resist all that much for as much movement as is needed for that failure.
I do believe the one piece is stronger to the point of being worthwhile though.
Need more of this stuff catalogued. Tons to be learned.
My completely uneducated guess would be turbulence. It's benign enough to cause
it and go unnoticed for a while. Which begs the question, how did you find
it?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455923#455923
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
tools wrote:
> Given the moment the wing strut has, I don't think a one piece would help. Wood
doesn't resist all that much for as much movement as is needed for that failure.
>
> I do believe the one piece is stronger to the point of being worthwhile though.
>
> Need more of this stuff catalogued. Tons to be learned.
>
> My completely uneducated guess would be turbulence. It's benign enough to cause
it and go unnoticed for a while. Which begs the question, how did you find
it?
Hi Tools,
I'm an engineer by training. For what it's worth.
I agree that this failure could be a result of negative G's of some kind.
However, if you look at the video, we are lifting the right wing. This should
be putting a compressive load across the plywood. When flying, the strut is in
tension and the plywood should be in compression. So why does the crack open
up when we lift on the wing. I think it has something do with the right landing
gear with all the weight on one tire or the left hand tire hanging down.
Can't wrap my brain around it yet. But there is clearly a tension force pulling
the plywood apart when the airplane is put on one tire. Maybe this is could
be cause by a hard landing on the right tire. Speculation.
Took some additional photos but nothing really stands out.
Like I said before, the gussets in the cockpit seem incorrectly sized.
Thanks
Andy Abreu
6186L
EAA582
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455924#455924
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
Hi Andy,
Air loads will be different than the loads you are putting on it while the plane
is on the ground. When you lift the wing, you are loading up the Right main
gear in compression, which is in turn putting a tension load on the Left main
gear. Does that make sense? In flight, there is no load on the landing gear.
Another thought here, With the demonstration you have provided, maybe just a hard
landing on the right main caused this issue??? Not a negative G issue.
Thoughts everyone,
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455925#455925
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 05/05/16 |
Re the cracked fuse around the landing gear mounts. On my set up the wheels splay
outwards on landing and "pull" on the gear legs. This exerts a pull on the
opposite side of the fuse. This will explain the cracks seen on the longerons
on this airplane. Probably caused by a few hard landings and or improper building
technique i.e. Not strong enough.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 6, 2016, at 3:03 AM, Pietenpol-List Digest Server <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
wrote:
>
> *
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
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> Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the
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> in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
> and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
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>
> HTML Version:
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> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Pietenpol-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Thu 05/05/16: 5
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Today's Message Index:
> ----------------------
>
> 1. 12:00 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS)
> 2. 12:02 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools)
> 3. 06:38 PM - Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (TriScout)
> 4. 09:14 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (taildrags)
> 5. 09:17 PM - Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (taildrags)
>
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:00:40 PM PST US
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking
> From: "AircamperN11MS" <Scott.liefeld@lacity.org>
>
>
> Wow, Do you happen to know what kind of glue was used during construction?
There
> must be some structural members broken as well. I am very curious to what
> you find and how you correct the issues.
>
> I am an EAA Tech Counselor and I try to stay educated so I can hopefully keep
someone
> else from having a similar issue. Please keep us posted.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> --------
> Scott Liefeld
> Flying N11MS since March 1972
> Steel Tube
> C-85-12
> Wire Wheels
> Brodhead in 1996
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455903#455903
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 12:02:20 PM PST US
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking
> From: "tools" <n0kkj@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Wow. Definitely interested in hearing more once you check it out more carefully...
>
> Seems like a negative g induced failure, what ever the root cause.
>
> Also interested in the repair.
>
> Fwiw, I repaired a similar fabric issue like that with Stewarts. They are stc'ed
> for simple overlap patches in a case like that which will preclude recovering
> the entire fuse, at the cost of looks.
>
> If good enough for certificated planes.... And it just felt right, very tenacious
> adhesive. I'm a little leery of poly tak with standing the 350 deg shrink.
>
> Good luck with the repair, let us know more as you figure it all out. Man, I
feel
> a experimental AD coming on! Yikes.
>
> Tools
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455904#455904
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 06:38:41 PM PST US
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In
> From: "TriScout" <apfelcyber@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Nice day at KLNC. We had Lunch and then flight..3rd GN-1 fella flew formation
w/us,
> but in his Cherokee. I suppose we could call it a fly in..
>
> --------
> KLNC
> A65-8
> N2308C
> Slick 4330's
> AN Hardware
> Airframe 755TT
> W72CK-42 Sensenich
> Standard Factory GN-1
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455909#455909
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8140_191.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8137_223.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8135_792.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8133_179.jpg
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:14:37 PM PST US
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking
> From: "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Tools; another forehead-slapping "doh!" moment for me when you mentioned negative
> Gs. I was wondering to myself what could have pulled the strut attach fitting
> down so hard that the lower longeron split or pulled away from the uprights.
> A good downward push by the wing strut could sure do it!! As you know, one
> of the only (or at least the best known) inflight structural failures of an
> Air Camper resulted from a negative-G maneuver. We can only guess what caused
> this one... flying through a thunderstorm or wind shear?
>
> If finding this crack results in a thorough inspection of the major glue joints
> and structural mountings, it will have been worth it in peace of mind once everything
> is found to be airworthy or is repaired as needed. There will also be
> a springtime next year, if this spring ends up being make-and-mend or even a
> fabric recovering job for Eight-Six-Lima.
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455915#455915
>
>
> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
>
>
> Time: 09:17:25 PM PST US
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In
> From: "taildrags" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
>
> I like the look of the silver on the wings and tail surfaces of Four-Sierra-Golf.
> The day looks like it was fun!
>
> --------
> Oscar Zuniga
> Medford, OR
> Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
> A75 power
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455916#455916
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In |
yes, Sierra Golf has an 0-200 and an electrical sys, while mine is an A65 and none.
We seemed to have about the same cruise speed though, but of course when
we took off together, he climbed a bit better. Pic's were all cellphone photos.
I had gopro shots of SG inflight, but no zoom lense..it was a bit shakey.
--------
KLNC
A65-8
N2308C
Slick 4330's
AN Hardware
Airframe 755TT
W72CK-42 Sensenich
Standard Factory GN-1
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455927#455927
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8143_207.jpg
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
Thought about that, but then decided with the gear in the ground, you have an opposing
force to the momentum of the wing drooping?
In flight, you wouldn't.
HATE you've got damage, but a lot to be learned, and very impressed you caught
it!
Tools
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455930#455930
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
Tools,
I PM'd you rather than hijacking this important thread.
--------
Scott Liefeld
Flying N11MS since March 1972
Steel Tube
C-85-12
Wire Wheels
Brodhead in 1996
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455931#455931
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
Andy,
>From the pics, the strut attachment is for the forward strut.
Your supposition regarding the gusset plates may be the issue, but I'm curious
about another feature that hasn't been discussed.
On the plans, there's a steel strap shown on Sheet 3 of that plans called out (for
extra strength only, not for ordinary use).
Does your ship have these straps?
--------
Tom Kreiner
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455934#455934
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
Andy,
Could the information at this link have had anything to do with undetected damage
to the left landing gear?
Here's the link:
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id 100126X43531&key=1
--------
Tom Kreiner
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455935#455935
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
tkreiner wrote:
> Andy,
>
> From the pics, the strut attachment is for the forward strut.
>
> Your supposition regarding the gusset plates may be the issue, but I'm curious
about another feature that hasn't been discussed.
>
> On the plans, there's a steel strap shown on Sheet 3 of that plans called out
(for extra strength only, not for ordinary use).
>
> Does your ship have these straps?
Yes. Forward strut.
Yes. Have the strap.
Andy Abreeu
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455936#455936
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
tkreiner wrote:
> Andy,
>
> Could the information at this link provide insight into any undetected damage
to the left landing gear?
>
> Here's the link:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id 100126X43531&key=1
Thanks for bringing that one up. Sheesh. I remember when that happened. A guy
in our club knocked the back wing off with the PAPI light on 22 at KTDZ. Knocked
out the PAPI light too.. which was way more expensive to fix than the horizontal
stab. Lesson here, land past the PAPI. Didn't damage the landing gear.
We do use this airplane for training. So we do get lots of hard landings in.
I tend to not fly this airplane in thunderstorms. Gust loading probably wasn't
a factor. The sharp impulse load that comes along with landing hard is my guess
along with poor workmanship.
I have some pictures on my phone i'll download later.
Also, we are going to fix this by tomorrow. I'll be sure to take lots of pictures
for everyone.
Thanks
Andy Abreu
6186L
EAA 582
Toledo Buzzards Light Sport Aircraft Club Inc.
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455937#455937
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Fuselage cracking |
I also agree with dan's, different thread started, assessment. Seems most likely
if only one wheel hits, opposite to that crack.
Other side is fine?
I've cut a lot of joints apart only to find poor gluing technique. Not many failed,
but clearly weren't as strong as they should be.
In floor tile setting, it's recommended you pull up the occasional tile as you
go along to ensure adequate adhesive and setting technique. Should do that gluing
up wood also. Consistent dimpling should be obvious, nothing not disturbed
or dry. Doesn't take long and gives a great sense of confidence.
Tools, who's tested ALL his gear to failure!
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