---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/06/16: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:04 AM - Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (AircamperN11MS) 2. 06:12 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS) 3. 08:13 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools) 4. 08:25 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (aabreu) 5. 08:34 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS) 6. 09:04 AM - Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 05/05/16 (dndboyd2@gmail.com) 7. 09:19 AM - Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (TriScout) 8. 10:16 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools) 9. 10:31 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS) 10. 11:59 AM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tkreiner) 11. 12:12 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tkreiner) 12. 12:51 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (aabreu) 13. 01:08 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (aabreu) 14. 01:50 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:25 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In From: "AircamperN11MS" I wish I had been there. Great pics. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455919#455919 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "AircamperN11MS" Regarding Tools negative G comment. I hadn't thought of that either, but..... I am now thinking that the three piece wing like I have would be more likely to do that then a single piece wing. The three piece wing has a built in hinge point just outside the center section. I am thinking that the single spar would actually be stronger. Does this plane have a three piece wing? Very interesting observation Tools. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455921#455921 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:53 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "tools" Given the moment the wing strut has, I don't think a one piece would help. Wood doesn't resist all that much for as much movement as is needed for that failure. I do believe the one piece is stronger to the point of being worthwhile though. Need more of this stuff catalogued. Tons to be learned. My completely uneducated guess would be turbulence. It's benign enough to cause it and go unnoticed for a while. Which begs the question, how did you find it? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455923#455923 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:10 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "aabreu" tools wrote: > Given the moment the wing strut has, I don't think a one piece would help. Wood doesn't resist all that much for as much movement as is needed for that failure. > > I do believe the one piece is stronger to the point of being worthwhile though. > > Need more of this stuff catalogued. Tons to be learned. > > My completely uneducated guess would be turbulence. It's benign enough to cause it and go unnoticed for a while. Which begs the question, how did you find it? Hi Tools, I'm an engineer by training. For what it's worth. I agree that this failure could be a result of negative G's of some kind. However, if you look at the video, we are lifting the right wing. This should be putting a compressive load across the plywood. When flying, the strut is in tension and the plywood should be in compression. So why does the crack open up when we lift on the wing. I think it has something do with the right landing gear with all the weight on one tire or the left hand tire hanging down. Can't wrap my brain around it yet. But there is clearly a tension force pulling the plywood apart when the airplane is put on one tire. Maybe this is could be cause by a hard landing on the right tire. Speculation. Took some additional photos but nothing really stands out. Like I said before, the gussets in the cockpit seem incorrectly sized. Thanks Andy Abreu 6186L EAA582 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455924#455924 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:34 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "AircamperN11MS" Hi Andy, Air loads will be different than the loads you are putting on it while the plane is on the ground. When you lift the wing, you are loading up the Right main gear in compression, which is in turn putting a tension load on the Left main gear. Does that make sense? In flight, there is no load on the landing gear. Another thought here, With the demonstration you have provided, maybe just a hard landing on the right main caused this issue??? Not a negative G issue. Thoughts everyone, -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455925#455925 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:43 AM PST US From: dndboyd2@gmail.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pietenpol-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 05/05/16 Re the cracked fuse around the landing gear mounts. On my set up the wheels splay outwards on landing and "pull" on the gear legs. This exerts a pull on the opposite side of the fuse. This will explain the cracks seen on the longerons on this airplane. Probably caused by a few hard landings and or improper building technique i.e. Not strong enough. Sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2016, at 3:03 AM, Pietenpol-List Digest Server wrote: > > * > > ================================================= > Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive > ================================================= > > Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as Notepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 16-05-05&Archive=Pietenpol > > Text Version: > > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 16-05-05&Archive=Pietenpol > > > =============================================== > EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive > =============================================== > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Pietenpol-List Digest Archive > --- > Total Messages Posted Thu 05/05/16: 5 > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Today's Message Index: > ---------------------- > > 1. 12:00 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (AircamperN11MS) > 2. 12:02 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (tools) > 3. 06:38 PM - Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (TriScout) > 4. 09:14 PM - Re: Fuselage cracking (taildrags) > 5. 09:17 PM - Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In (taildrags) > > > > ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 12:00:40 PM PST US > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking > From: "AircamperN11MS" > > > Wow, Do you happen to know what kind of glue was used during construction? There > must be some structural members broken as well. I am very curious to what > you find and how you correct the issues. > > I am an EAA Tech Counselor and I try to stay educated so I can hopefully keep someone > else from having a similar issue. Please keep us posted. > > Many thanks, > > -------- > Scott Liefeld > Flying N11MS since March 1972 > Steel Tube > C-85-12 > Wire Wheels > Brodhead in 1996 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455903#455903 > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 12:02:20 PM PST US > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking > From: "tools" > > > Wow. Definitely interested in hearing more once you check it out more carefully... > > Seems like a negative g induced failure, what ever the root cause. > > Also interested in the repair. > > Fwiw, I repaired a similar fabric issue like that with Stewarts. They are stc'ed > for simple overlap patches in a case like that which will preclude recovering > the entire fuse, at the cost of looks. > > If good enough for certificated planes.... And it just felt right, very tenacious > adhesive. I'm a little leery of poly tak with standing the 350 deg shrink. > > Good luck with the repair, let us know more as you figure it all out. Man, I feel > a experimental AD coming on! Yikes. > > Tools > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455904#455904 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 06:38:41 PM PST US > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In > From: "TriScout" > > > Nice day at KLNC. We had Lunch and then flight..3rd GN-1 fella flew formation w/us, > but in his Cherokee. I suppose we could call it a fly in.. > > -------- > KLNC > A65-8 > N2308C > Slick 4330's > AN Hardware > Airframe 755TT > W72CK-42 Sensenich > Standard Factory GN-1 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455909#455909 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8140_191.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8137_223.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8135_792.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8133_179.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:14:37 PM PST US > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking > From: "taildrags" > > > Tools; another forehead-slapping "doh!" moment for me when you mentioned negative > Gs. I was wondering to myself what could have pulled the strut attach fitting > down so hard that the lower longeron split or pulled away from the uprights. > A good downward push by the wing strut could sure do it!! As you know, one > of the only (or at least the best known) inflight structural failures of an > Air Camper resulted from a negative-G maneuver. We can only guess what caused > this one... flying through a thunderstorm or wind shear? > > If finding this crack results in a thorough inspection of the major glue joints > and structural mountings, it will have been worth it in peace of mind once everything > is found to be airworthy or is repaired as needed. There will also be > a springtime next year, if this spring ends up being make-and-mend or even a > fabric recovering job for Eight-Six-Lima. > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455915#455915 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 09:17:25 PM PST US > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In > From: "taildrags" > > > I like the look of the silver on the wings and tail surfaces of Four-Sierra-Golf. > The day looks like it was fun! > > -------- > Oscar Zuniga > Medford, OR > Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" > A75 power > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455916#455916 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:52 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Cinco de Mayo GN-1 Fly In From: "TriScout" yes, Sierra Golf has an 0-200 and an electrical sys, while mine is an A65 and none. We seemed to have about the same cruise speed though, but of course when we took off together, he climbed a bit better. Pic's were all cellphone photos. I had gopro shots of SG inflight, but no zoom lense..it was a bit shakey. -------- KLNC A65-8 N2308C Slick 4330's AN Hardware Airframe 755TT W72CK-42 Sensenich Standard Factory GN-1 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455927#455927 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8143_207.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "tools" Thought about that, but then decided with the gear in the ground, you have an opposing force to the momentum of the wing drooping? In flight, you wouldn't. HATE you've got damage, but a lot to be learned, and very impressed you caught it! Tools Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455930#455930 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:50 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "AircamperN11MS" Tools, I PM'd you rather than hijacking this important thread. -------- Scott Liefeld Flying N11MS since March 1972 Steel Tube C-85-12 Wire Wheels Brodhead in 1996 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455931#455931 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:11 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "tkreiner" Andy, >From the pics, the strut attachment is for the forward strut. Your supposition regarding the gusset plates may be the issue, but I'm curious about another feature that hasn't been discussed. On the plans, there's a steel strap shown on Sheet 3 of that plans called out (for extra strength only, not for ordinary use). Does your ship have these straps? -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455934#455934 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:20 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "tkreiner" Andy, Could the information at this link have had anything to do with undetected damage to the left landing gear? Here's the link: http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id 100126X43531&key=1 -------- Tom Kreiner Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455935#455935 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "aabreu" tkreiner wrote: > Andy, > > From the pics, the strut attachment is for the forward strut. > > Your supposition regarding the gusset plates may be the issue, but I'm curious about another feature that hasn't been discussed. > > On the plans, there's a steel strap shown on Sheet 3 of that plans called out (for extra strength only, not for ordinary use). > > Does your ship have these straps? Yes. Forward strut. Yes. Have the strap. Andy Abreeu Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455936#455936 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "aabreu" tkreiner wrote: > Andy, > > Could the information at this link provide insight into any undetected damage to the left landing gear? > > Here's the link: > > http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id 100126X43531&key=1 Thanks for bringing that one up. Sheesh. I remember when that happened. A guy in our club knocked the back wing off with the PAPI light on 22 at KTDZ. Knocked out the PAPI light too.. which was way more expensive to fix than the horizontal stab. Lesson here, land past the PAPI. Didn't damage the landing gear. We do use this airplane for training. So we do get lots of hard landings in. I tend to not fly this airplane in thunderstorms. Gust loading probably wasn't a factor. The sharp impulse load that comes along with landing hard is my guess along with poor workmanship. I have some pictures on my phone i'll download later. Also, we are going to fix this by tomorrow. I'll be sure to take lots of pictures for everyone. Thanks Andy Abreu 6186L EAA 582 Toledo Buzzards Light Sport Aircraft Club Inc. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455937#455937 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuselage cracking From: "tools" I also agree with dan's, different thread started, assessment. Seems most likely if only one wheel hits, opposite to that crack. Other side is fine? I've cut a lot of joints apart only to find poor gluing technique. Not many failed, but clearly weren't as strong as they should be. In floor tile setting, it's recommended you pull up the occasional tile as you go along to ensure adequate adhesive and setting technique. Should do that gluing up wood also. Consistent dimpling should be obvious, nothing not disturbed or dry. Doesn't take long and gives a great sense of confidence. Tools, who's tested ALL his gear to failure! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455938#455938 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.