---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/28/17: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:12 AM - Sky Scout Plans (DonkDoug) 2. 09:40 AM - Re: Sky Scout Plans (Glen Schweizer) 3. 12:49 PM - Re: Sky Scout Plans (DonkDoug) 4. 08:01 PM - Re: Sky Scout Plans ((null) raykrause) 5. 09:23 PM - Re: VNE (taildrags) 6. 10:05 PM - Re: Sky Scout Plans (DonkDoug) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:33 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout Plans From: "DonkDoug" I did not get many responses to this on the Pietenpol Facebook page so I thought I should try here. In looking at the Sky Scout plans from the 1933 Flying and Glider Manual I noticed that the dimensions for the individual members of the fuselage, when added, come to 147 3/4". This figure does not agree with the given overall dimension of 153 3/4" or 12' 9 3/4". This is true in all views of the fuselage with the exception of the two dimensions given at the bottom of the "Bottom View of the Fuselage" which do add up to 153 3/4." I searched the Matronics Pietenpol archive to see if there had been past discussion on this discrepancy but could not find any. I suspect the 153 3/4" overall length dimension is in error but would welcome any insight you all may have. I can't imagine I am the first person to notice this. Or is there no error and I'm just not seeing something I should? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472273#472273 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2017_08_27_at_121242_pm_238.png ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:55 AM PST US From: Glen Schweizer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout Plans Keep in mind that there are three different fuselage lengths based on engine choices there are subtle differences among all three. Weight and balance will b the critical issue to deal with which is greatly simplified by havin a wing able to move fore and aft Your critical measurements will be at the verticals under cabane struts and seat back keep in mind that Mr pietenpol used to lay out fuselage sides on nails in barn floor > On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:12 AM, DonkDoug wrote: > > > I did not get many responses to this on the Pietenpol Facebook page so I thought I should try here. In looking at the Sky Scout plans from the 1933 Flying and Glider Manual I noticed that the dimensions for the individual members of the fuselage, when added, come to 147 3/4". This figure does not agree with the given overall dimension of 153 3/4" or 12' 9 3/4". This is true in all views of the fuselage with the exception of the two dimensions given at the bottom of the "Bottom View of the Fuselage" which do add up to 153 3/4." I searched the Matronics Pietenpol archive to see if there had been past discussion on this discrepancy but could not find any. I suspect the 153 3/4" overall length dimension is in error but would welcome any insight you all may have. I can't imagine I am the first person to notice this. Or is there no error and I'm just not seeing something I should? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472273#472273 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2017_08_27_at_121242_pm_238.png > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:06 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sky Scout Plans From: "DonkDoug" Glen, You are correct in that there are several different fuselage designs for the Air Camper (counting the wood and steel Gregas there are actually six) but my question was about the Sky Scout plans. As with the Air Camper, you are also correct that two of the critical dimensions are the spacing for the cabane strut attachment points and the seatback location. Could the center of gravity be adjusted by moving the wing to account for a tail post 6" too short or long? Probably, but I would rather know for sure how long it should be to begin with. Doug Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472281#472281 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:31 PM PST US From: "(null) raykrause" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout Plans Doug, I might be able to help you a bit. I'm just finishing up a SkyScout with an A-65. Just now struggling with the W/B. I tried to build it according to the Modern Mechanics Blueprint published in 1932. It calls for the fuselage length of 147.75", mine measure 148" firewall to tailpost. I made the fuselage about 2" deeper at the cockpit to accommodate my 6'4" frame. I used a center wing section as in the AirCamper supplemental plans and built the motor mount according to the supplemental plans. It's almost ready for the final A/W cert inspection and subsequent test flight. The empty weight W/B is at the forward limits of the recommended CG of 15-20" aft of the leading edge (LE). But with a 200 lb pilot and full fuel it is at about 20". With only 3 gals in the header tank, the CG goes to 21". But with a 160 lb pilot, everything stays within the 20" range. The wing is leaning back 6" to attain this CG, the maximum that I can get. I should have made the engine mount 2" longer. I would highly recommend you go at least an additional 2-3". I'm going to go to test flying the way it is because I really don't want to make another motor mount and cowl! I will do this if it does not fly well enough. William Winn says to keep the CG well in front of the rear limit in his series of articles in the Broadnead Newsletter. I agree with him. But..... I will try to include some of my W/B info with this, but if it does not go, I will send it separately. Have fun building, it is one of the great life experiences....only to be outdone by flying your own plane which I have done with my Waiex! Ray Krause SkyScout W/B Datum is the Leading Edge (LE). All measurements are in inches (") from the LE, or pounds (lbs) when plane was level. LE = 0.0" Oil = -10.50" Fuel = 5.00" Landing Gear = 5.00" Tailwheel = 148.00" Cowl = -.5" Firewall = -.5" Pilot = 43.25" Front prop flange = -32.5" Fuselage: 148.50" firewall to tailpost Motor mount: 32.00" firewall to front prop flange. Landing gear to tailwheel weigh points =143.00" Tail wheel (TW) weight 46 lbs Right wheel (RW) weight 296 lbs Left wheel (LW) weight 306 lbs ------------- CG = D +(R X L / W) Where: CG is Center of Gravity in " behind LE. D is the distance from the Datum to the LG weighing point (5.0"). R is the weight of the tailwheel at weighing point (46 lbs). L is the distance from LG weighing point to the tailwheel weighing point (143.00"). W is the total aircraft weight measured at the three wheel weigh points when aircraft is level (648 lbs). +++++++++++++++ EWCG of aircraft W/O cowl CG= 5.0" + (46 X 143.00/648) CG = 5.0 + (6578/648) CG = 5.0 + 10.15 CG = 15.15" aft of LE 25.25% MAC +++++++++++++ EWCG of aircraft WITH Cowl WT. ARM. MOMENT EWCG. 648. 15.15. 9817.2 Cowl. 6. -.50. - 3.0 Totals. 654. 9814.2 EWCG with cowl = 9814.2/654 EWCG with cowl = 15.00" aft of LE = 25.0% MAC ++++++++++++ CG with 200 lb. pilot plus full fuel (10gal) WT. ARM. MOMENT A/C EWCG. 654. 15.00. 9810.0 Pilot. 200. 43.25. 8650.0 Fuel. 60.0 5.0. 300.0 Totals. 914. 18o760.0 CG = 18760.0/914 = 20.53" aft LE = 34.2% MAC ++++++++++++++++++++ CG with 200 lb pilot plus min fuel (3gal) A/C EWCG. 654. 15.00. 9810.0 Pilot. 200. 43.25. 8650.0 Fuel. 18. 5.0. 90.0 Totals. 872. 18550.0 CG = 18550/872 = 21.27" aft LE = 35.5% MAC ++++++++++++++++++ CG with 160 lb pilot and full fuel (10gal) WT. ARM. MOMENT A/C EWCG. 654. 15.00. 9810.0 Pilot. 160. 43.25. 6920.0 Fuel. 60.0. 5.0. 300.0 Totals. 874. 17030.0 CG = 17030/874 = 19.49" aft LE = 32.40% MAC ++++++++++++++++++++++ CG with 160 lb pilot plus min fuel (3gal) WT. ARM. MOMENT A/C EWCG. 654. 15.00. 9810.0 Pilot. 160. 43.25. 6920.0 Fuel. 18. 5.0. 90.0 Totals. 832 16820.0 CG = 16820/832 = 20.2" aft LE = 33.7% MAC Sent from my iPad > On Aug 28, 2017, at 9:12 AM, DonkDoug wrote: > > > I did not get many responses to this on the Pietenpol Facebook page so I thought I should try here. In looking at the Sky Scout plans from the 1933 Flying and Glider Manual I noticed that the dimensions for the individual members of the fuselage, when added, come to 147 3/4". This figure does not agree with the given overall dimension of 153 3/4" or 12' 9 3/4". This is true in all views of the fuselage with the exception of the two dimensions given at the bottom of the "Bottom View of the Fuselage" which do add up to 153 3/4." I searched the Matronics Pietenpol archive to see if there had been past discussion on this discrepancy but could not find any. I suspect the 153 3/4" overall length dimension is in error but would welcome any insight you all may have. I can't imagine I am the first person to notice this. Or is there no error and I'm just not seeing something I should? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472273#472273 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/screen_shot_2017_08_27_at_121242_pm_238.png > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: VNE From: "taildrags" Steve; the Vne came with the airplane ;o) No, it wasn't a mathematical operation like "top of the green is at 80, Vne is 1.2 times that... 96 MPH". No math involved. I can tell you that I've had the airplane up to a little over 90 in a dive and it did NOT feel like a happy airplane. I hope never to have to intentionally see 41CC at redline on the ASI. I now confidently cruise it at around 70 with 2350-2400 RPM on the tach, but it still likes to think it has an A65 on the nose so sometimes I throttle it back to 21-2200 and ease the stick back to hold it at 60-65. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472290#472290 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sky Scout Plans From: "DonkDoug" Ray, Thank you for this information. I was not aware of the Modern Mechanics plans for the Sky Scout. Nice to know their plans agree with the 147.75" addition of the individual members dimensions. I had pretty much decided that is what the overall fuselage length should be. I also backed into that number by doing some addition and subtraction off other overall dimensions given in other views of the airplane. The 153.75" must have been a bust on the part of the draftsman back in the day. His drawings are great, very artistic in fact, but there is that error and a guy on the Pietenpol Facebook page said the wing drawings have dimensional errors also. Your project sounds a lot like what I was considering. I remember seeing pics you had posted several months ago - it looked great. I'm interested to see how your weight and balance works out. The last time I looked at this design using an A-65 I had calculated that to use the supplement plans Continental motor mount I was going to have to extend the firewall forward a few inches. This seems to agree with what you are discovering. Do you have a metal prop? That would help a bit. Doug Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472292#472292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.