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1. 04:51 AM - Re: Re: Sky Scout Plans (Jack Philips)
2. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Sky Scout Plans (Jack)
3. 08:04 PM - Re: Sky Scout Plans (taildrags)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout Plans |
13 degrees is what a Piper J-3 Cub has. That is one thing that makes a Cub
a good trainer. That angle is very close to the critical AOA and when the
plane is flown at that angle, it will stall very soon after reaching that
angle, meaning you had better have the wheels very close to the ground when
you flare it to that angle. If you flare too soon, it will drop in. If you
flare too late, it will bounce. As I said, this is what makes the Cub such
a good trainer - you've got to do everything just right to get a good
3-point landing. That was why I could rarely get 3 good landings in a row
in my Cub, and I find the same is true in my Pietenpol.
Problem is worse with a Pietenpol than with a Cub - the Piet has so much
drag that the time between flaring it to the ground attitude and the stall
is less than a second. I usually carry a little power through the landing
to make it easier.
Aeronca and Cessna figured out that you can make a plane easier to land by
setting the deck angle a little shallower so if you flare slightly high and
just hold that attitude the plane will settle easily and 3-point nicely. My
old Cessna 140 had an 11 Degree deck angle. The Cessna 170B that I
currently own has an 8 degree angle, which I find makes it prone to bouncing
(which is why most 170 owners tend to wheel land).
The easiest plane to land I have ever flown (whether tail-dragger or
tricycle), was my old Van's RV-4. It had a deck angle of about 10 degrees
and even if you flared 5' high, if you just held the top of the cowling on
the horizon it would settle in for a feather light 3-point landing. Every
time.
Jack Phillips
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DonkDoug
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 9:40 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sky Scout Plans
--> <douglas.wright@okstate.edu>
Jack,
I have a aircraft design textbook (Daniel Raymer, if I remember right) and
13 degrees recommended is what I remember from the section on cockpit
ergonomics. I'll look when I get home tomorrow.
Doug
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472686#472686
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout Plans |
Good info Jack!
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 9, 2017, at 6:50 AM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com> wrote:
>
>
> 13 degrees is what a Piper J-3 Cub has. That is one thing that makes a Cub
> a good trainer. That angle is very close to the critical AOA and when the
> plane is flown at that angle, it will stall very soon after reaching that
> angle, meaning you had better have the wheels very close to the ground when
> you flare it to that angle. If you flare too soon, it will drop in. If you
> flare too late, it will bounce. As I said, this is what makes the Cub such
> a good trainer - you've got to do everything just right to get a good
> 3-point landing. That was why I could rarely get 3 good landings in a row
> in my Cub, and I find the same is true in my Pietenpol.
>
> Problem is worse with a Pietenpol than with a Cub - the Piet has so much
> drag that the time between flaring it to the ground attitude and the stall
> is less than a second. I usually carry a little power through the landing
> to make it easier.
>
> Aeronca and Cessna figured out that you can make a plane easier to land by
> setting the deck angle a little shallower so if you flare slightly high and
> just hold that attitude the plane will settle easily and 3-point nicely. My
> old Cessna 140 had an 11 Degree deck angle. The Cessna 170B that I
> currently own has an 8 degree angle, which I find makes it prone to bouncing
> (which is why most 170 owners tend to wheel land).
>
> The easiest plane to land I have ever flown (whether tail-dragger or
> tricycle), was my old Van's RV-4. It had a deck angle of about 10 degrees
> and even if you flared 5' high, if you just held the top of the cowling on
> the horizon it would settle in for a feather light 3-point landing. Every
> time.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DonkDoug
> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2017 9:40 PM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Sky Scout Plans
>
> --> <douglas.wright@okstate.edu>
>
> Jack,
>
> I have a aircraft design textbook (Daniel Raymer, if I remember right) and
> 13 degrees recommended is what I remember from the section on cockpit
> ergonomics. I'll look when I get home tomorrow.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472686#472686
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout Plans |
Yes, good info, Jack. I never thought about what it was that made each of those
aircraft handle as they do near the stall. I learned to fly in a 40HP J-3 and
made my first solo in it, so that airplane created my first impressions of
how to land an airplane and what the sensations and visual cues should be right
at the ground.
The Cub must have taught me pretty well. Flying my Air Camper some 45 years after
that first solo off the grass at Tims Airpark north of Austin, I find that
I can now make perfect 3-point landings every time. Sometimes those perfect
3-pointers occur three feet off the runway, sometimes they are half that distance,
sometimes they should have happened two seconds after the tires touched down
and I'm ballooning up again, but occasionally the tires meet the runway at
the same time the airplane stops flying ;o) In short, I know the theory perfectly
and the airplane is willing to give it a go as many times as I want to put
it in the landing attitude, but it usually turns out that I'm still a student
and 41CC gets the last chuckle as we clear the active.
I guess if that weren't the case, I might as well just have a big red toggle switch
on the panel labeled "AutoLand" and I would soon grow bored of Pietenpoling.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472731#472731
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