Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:56 AM - Rib to spar attachment. (Comcast)
2. 07:10 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (Jack Textor)
3. 07:12 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (Jack Philips)
4. 07:18 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (Glen Schweizer)
5. 07:20 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (Jack Textor)
6. 07:22 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (Jack Philips)
7. 08:12 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (John C Black)
8. 08:59 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (Jack Philips)
9. 09:02 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (Jack Textor)
10. 09:20 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (jarheadpilot82)
11. 11:03 AM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (John C Black)
12. 09:26 PM - Re: Rib to spar attachment. (taildrags)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Rib to spar attachment. |
In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top a
nd bottom securing to the spar.
Is this what you guys do/did?
This is just enough to hold general position.
- Rich
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
Most dont do it this way. Many dont secure at all. I tacked through the vertical
brace into the side of the spar
Jack Textor
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top and
bottom securing to the spar.
>
> Is this what you guys do/did?
>
> This is just enough to hold general position.
>
> <image1.jpeg>
>
>
>
> - Rich
Message 3
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| Subject: | Rib to spar attachment. |
That's all you will need, and I wouldn't do it until you have your wing
trammeled and the drag and anti drag wires tight. You might need to move a
rib or two to clear the bracing wires on the rib diagonals. Once the fabric
is in place and the rib lacing is done, the ribs are very secure.
Jack Phillips
Pietenpol NX899JP "Icarus Plummet", flying for 13 years
RV-10 N142KW, under construction, hopefully flying this year
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Comcast
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 9:56 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top
and bottom securing to the spar.
Is this what you guys do/did?
This is just enough to hold general position.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
All the nails do is maintain position while glue cures
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top and
bottom securing to the spar.
>
> Is this what you guys do/did?
>
> This is just enough to hold general position.
>
> <image1.jpeg>
>
>
>
> - Rich
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
Good point JP, I had to move or modify a couple of ribs to clear the cables...
Jack Textor
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 9:12 AM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com> wrote:
>
>
> That's all you will need, and I wouldn't do it until you have your wing
> trammeled and the drag and anti drag wires tight. You might need to move a
> rib or two to clear the bracing wires on the rib diagonals. Once the fabric
> is in place and the rib lacing is done, the ribs are very secure.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Pietenpol NX899JP "Icarus Plummet", flying for 13 years
> RV-10 N142KW, under construction, hopefully flying this year
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Comcast
> Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 9:56 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
>
> In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top
> and bottom securing to the spar.
>
> Is this what you guys do/did?
>
> This is just enough to hold general position.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Rib to spar attachment. |
Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to replace
a rib. I did not glue my ribs in place.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glen
Schweizer
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
--> <glenschweizer@yahoo.com>
All the nails do is maintain position while glue cures
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at top
and bottom securing to the spar.
>
> Is this what you guys do/did?
>
> This is just enough to hold general position.
>
> <image1.jpeg>
>
>
>
> - Rich
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
I would appreciate any comments on my plan for assembling the ribs and
spars.
I am using Aluminum Spars from Carlson Aircraft. My plan is to make a
filler for the side of the spar facing the rib. a 1/2=9D
wide (maybe 1=9D wide) x 3/8=9D thick piece of spruce to
fill the ~4.25=9D space between the bottom & top rails
relieved for the top channel and bulbs on the spar. (See picture) To
assemble I would slide the filler into place. I want to make sure the
rib stays square to the spar. I want to experiment to determine whether
to epoxy the rib to the filler. If the rib stays square when epoxied to
the filler and the rib/filler can be slid along the spar in case it
needs to move for diagonal wires then I=99d use a single
screw/nut in the center of the spar to hold the rib in location. If
this approach had problems, then use no epoxy between rib and filler and
use 2 #8 screws with nuts to hold the filler and rib to the spar...
drilling 2 holes for screws 1.5=9D apart (1.5=9D from the
top & bottom of spar).
I have some small concern about drilling the spar, but the center of the
web is doing little work so I think that would be acceptable.
Since I=99ve never done this before, any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
John
La Conner, WA
On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
wrote:
<jack@bedfordlandings.com>
Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to
replace
a rib. I did not glue my ribs in place.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glen
Schweizer
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
--> <glenschweizer@yahoo.com>
All the nails do is maintain position while glue cures
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at
top
and bottom securing to the spar.
>
> Is this what you guys do/did?
>
> This is just enough to hold general position.
>
> <image1.jpeg>
>
>
>
> - Rich
Message 8
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| Subject: | Rib to spar attachment. |
I=99m just curious, not judgmental, but why do you want to use
aluminum spars? It would seem that a great deal of extra work would be
involved, they would be heavier (by the time you add all the wood
fillers) and I=99m not sure without running a stress analysis that
they would be any stronger than wood spars. Are they cheaper?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP =9CIcarus Plummet=9D
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John C
Black
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
I would appreciate any comments on my plan for assembling the ribs and
spars.
I am using Aluminum Spars from Carlson Aircraft. My plan is to make a
filler for the side of the spar facing the rib. a 1/2=9D
wide (maybe 1=9D wide) x 3/8=9D thick piece of spruce to
fill the ~4.25=9D space between the bottom & top rails
relieved for the top channel and bulbs on the spar. (See picture) To
assemble I would slide the filler into place. I want to make sure the
rib stays square to the spar. I want to experiment to determine whether
to epoxy the rib to the filler. If the rib stays square when epoxied to
the filler and the rib/filler can be slid along the spar in case it
needs to move for diagonal wires then I=99d use a single
screw/nut in the center of the spar to hold the rib in location. If
this approach had problems, then use no epoxy between rib and filler and
use 2 #8 screws with nuts to hold the filler and rib to the spar...
drilling 2 holes for screws 1.5=9D apart (1.5=9D from the
top & bottom of spar).
I have some small concern about drilling the spar, but the center of the
web is doing little work so I think that would be acceptable.
Since I=99ve never done this before, any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
John
La Conner, WA
On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com
<mailto:jack@bedfordlandings.com> > wrote:
<jack@bedfordlandings.com <mailto:jack@bedfordlandings.com> >
Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to
replace
a rib. I did not glue my ribs in place.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glen
Schweizer
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
--> <glenschweizer@yahoo.com <mailto:glenschweizer@yahoo.com> >
All the nails do is maintain position while glue cures
On Jan 2, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net
<mailto:4rcsimmons@comcast.net> > wrote:
In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at
top
and bottom securing to the spar.
Is this what you guys do/did?
This is just enough to hold general position.
<image1.jpeg>
- Rich
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://wiki.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
Uncharted territory there John. Was your reason for aluminum weight savings?
Do you know how it=99s strength compare to plans spar? Using it will m
ean changes in many areas for things attached to the spar.
Jack Textor
Sent from my iPad
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 10:11 AM, John C Black <john@jcblack.com> wrote:
>
> I would appreciate any comments on my plan for assembling the ribs and spa
rs.
>
> I am using Aluminum Spars from Carlson Aircraft. My plan is to make a fi
ller for the side of the spar facing the rib. a 1/2=9D wide (
maybe 1=9D wide) x 3/8=9D thick piece of spruce to fill the ~4.2
5=9D space between the bottom & top rails relieved for the to
p channel and bulbs on the spar. (See picture) To assemble I would slide the
filler into place. I want to make sure the rib stays square to the spar. I
want to experiment to determine whether to epoxy the rib to the filler. If
the rib stays square when epoxied to the filler and the rib/filler can be s
lid along the spar in case it needs to move for diagonal wires then
I=99d use a single screw/nut in the center of the spar to hold the ri
b in location. If this approach had problems, then use no epoxy between rib
and filler and use 2 #8 screws with nuts to hold the filler and rib to the s
par... drilling 2 holes for screws 1.5=9D apart (1.5=9D from the
top & bottom of spar).
>
> I have some small concern about drilling the spar, but the center of the w
eb is doing little work so I think that would be acceptable.
>
> Since I=99ve never done this before, any help is appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
> La Conner, WA
> <000-Spar.JPG>
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com> wrote:
>
.com>
>
> Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to replac
e
> a rib. I did not glue my ribs in place.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
> Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glen
> Schweizer
> Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 10:18 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
>
> --> <glenschweizer@yahoo.com>
>
> All the nails do is maintain position while glue cures
>> On Jan 2, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at to
p
> and bottom securing to the spar.
>>
>> Is this what you guys do/did?
>>
>> This is just enough to hold general position.
>>
>> <image1.jpeg>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
John,
I am also using the aluminum extruded spars. I did the spacers pretty much as you
described and epoxied them to the spar, clamping them until the epoxy dried.
I trammeled my wings, then set the ribs where I wanted them. I wanted the ribs
to be equally spaced, and to do so, I had to dremel out a slot/space in one
or two diagonals. After the diagonals were slotted, I added additional diagonals
behind the slotted ones to reinforce them. I then epoxied them into place.
I wanted to ensure a transfer of the aerodynamic loads between the ribs and
the spars and was advised to glue them in place. I used a pin nailer to nail
the ribs in place until they dried.
Two things I would suggest, First, ensure your spacers are wide enough (mine were
about 1 and 1/2 inches wide) so you can move the ribs off the center of the
spacer if you need to and choose to move the ribs to clear the drag/anti-drag
wires. Second, if you choose to screw the ribs into place, I think that one screw
in the center of the shear web would be best, the loads are lowest at the
center of the shear web, and using the smallest screw possible should not affect
the spar strength.
My $.02. Keep us posted.
--------
Semper Fi,
Terry Hand
Athens, GA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477011#477011
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
Using 14=99 lengths for comparison.
Carlson Spars (4-A) are $103 per 14=99 length My Spruce
is $10/bd ft so 7 bdft is $70 for 14=99, but there is waste wood
so I think costs are about equal.
My research says Aluminum spars are significantly stronger than Spruce.
My weight numbers =94 A 14=99 aluminum spar weighs 9lb 3oz
plus .5lb of fillers and fastenings 9lb 11oz total.
A 4.5=9Dx1=9Dx14=99 Sitka Spruce (.4375 cu ft @ 28
lb/cuft) spar would weigh 12.25 lbs less routed out 10=99x2.5=9D
x1/2=9D (.087 cu ft @ 28 lbs/cuft) = 2.43 lbs. So 12.25-2.43=
9.82lb (9lb 13oz).
I concluded :
Equal Cost
Equal Weight
Greater Strength
What's not to like ?
John
On Jan 2, 2018, at 8:59 AM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com>
wrote:
I=99m just curious, not judgmental, but why do you want to use
aluminum spars? It would seem that a great deal of extra work would be
involved, they would be heavier (by the time you add all the wood
fillers) and I=99m not sure without running a stress analysis that
they would be any stronger than wood spars. Are they cheaper?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP =9CIcarus Plummet=9D
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John C
Black
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
I would appreciate any comments on my plan for assembling the ribs and
spars.
I am using Aluminum Spars from Carlson Aircraft. My plan is to make a
filler for the side of the spar facing the rib. a 1/2=9D
wide (maybe 1=9D wide) x 3/8=9D thick piece of spruce to
fill the ~4.25=9D space between the bottom & top rails
relieved for the top channel and bulbs on the spar. (See picture) To
assemble I would slide the filler into place. I want to make sure the
rib stays square to the spar. I want to experiment to determine whether
to epoxy the rib to the filler. If the rib stays square when epoxied to
the filler and the rib/filler can be slid along the spar in case it
needs to move for diagonal wires then I=99d use a single
screw/nut in the center of the spar to hold the rib in location. If
this approach had problems, then use no epoxy between rib and filler and
use 2 #8 screws with nuts to hold the filler and rib to the spar...
drilling 2 holes for screws 1.5=9D apart (1.5=9D from the
top & bottom of spar).
I have some small concern about drilling the spar, but the center of the
web is doing little work so I think that would be acceptable.
Since I=99ve never done this before, any help is appreciated.
Thanks,
John
La Conner, WA
On Jan 2, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Jack Philips <jack@bedfordlandings.com
<mailto:jack@bedfordlandings.com>> wrote:
<jack@bedfordlandings.com <mailto:jack@bedfordlandings.com>>
Glue is not necessary, and might be detrimental if you ever need to
replace
a rib. I did not glue my ribs in place.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Smith Mountain Lake, Virginia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Glen
Schweizer
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Rib to spar attachment.
--> <glenschweizer@yahoo.com <mailto:glenschweizer@yahoo.com>>
All the nails do is maintain position while glue cures
> On Jan 2, 2018, at 6:55 AM, Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net
<mailto:4rcsimmons@comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> In reviewing drawing 5 for steel materials needed, it shows 2 nails at
top
and bottom securing to the spar.
>
> Is this what you guys do/did?
>
> This is just enough to hold general position.
>
> <image1.jpeg>
>
>
>
> - Rich
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
http://wiki.matronics.com <http://wiki.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rib to spar attachment. |
OK, I am ready to duck into my foxhole after I hit and the shooting starts, but
I'm going to poke at the aluminum spar vs. wood spar topic. First of all though,
I'll say that the second installment of my upcoming series on Piet wing
spars (BPA Newsletter) will dig deeply into the weight and strength comparison
of almost a dozen different wing spar variations that are seen on the Sky Scout
and Air Camper, so what I'll throw out right now are just a few numbers that
I've come up with but I'll present no figgerin' to back up those numbers. Get
the newsletter to get the figgerin' ;o)
Best I can tell and calculate from the drawings in the 1932 Flying & Glider Manual,
there is about 0.715 cu. ft. of spruce in a routed 1" spar that measures
29 ft from tip to tip. That spruce will weigh 20.02 lb. A built-up "I" spar
of the same dimensions will probably weigh a little more due to the plywood in
the web and the glue used in the buildup, but it will perform about the same
and is a great option. Some judicious lightening holes in the plywood webs can
also improve the strength-to-weight ratio and are probably needed anyway to
allow brace cables and stiffeners to pass through the web.
Let's say that the routed 1" spruce spar is good for a maximum bending moment of
2475 ft-lb (see my first installment, coming out soon in the Newsletter). Now
comparing the data published by Carlson for their 4-A extruded spar, I get
a weight of right at 19 lb for a 29 ft spar length, and from my figgerin' I get
a maximum bending moment of 2407 ft-lb. From this I conclude that the routed
1" spruce spar and the Carlson 4-A spar are almost identical in weight and strength.
Now let's look at cost and ignore labor since experimental aircraft builders all
work for free, right? ;o) Aircraft Spruce shows 1" x 4-3/4" spruce spar stock
at $9.28/ft for a cost of $269.12 for 29 feet. Carlson shows the 4-A aluminum
spar material at $103 for a 14 ft length. If we cheat a bit and say we can
make the outer 6" of the wingtips out of something other than aluminum spar
stock so we can use standard length Carlson spars, two 14-footers will cost a
total of $206.
Using the spruce spars there's work to do the routing and smoothing. Using the
aluminum spars there's work to do the fitting of blocks to get the ribs to attach
to the spars neatly. Either way, there's work to do. Either way, the cost
is roughly the same. Either way, you should get just about the same outcome
once it gets in the air. So now we're down to pitting spruce vs. aluminum in
the never-ending circular argument that won Miller Lite the ranking of 8th best
advertising campaign in history: "tastes great, or less filling?" ;o) The
aluminum spars appear to be a very nice, very viable option, especially if you
don't have good wood available or if you're better at metal-working than at
wood-working.
--------
Oscar Zuniga
Medford, OR
Air Camper NX41CC "Scout"
A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477032#477032
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