---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 02/04/18: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:23 AM - Re: piet (jarheadpilot82) 2. 07:45 AM - Re: piet (jarheadpilot82) 3. 09:13 AM - Re: piet (taildrags) 4. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: piet (Glen Schweizer) 5. 09:43 AM - Re: piet (jarheadpilot82) 6. 09:50 AM - Re: piet (jarheadpilot82) 7. 12:37 PM - Re: Re: piet (Brian) 8. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: piet (Jack Philips) 9. 02:21 PM - Re: Re: piet (Glen Schweizer) 10. 08:12 PM - Re: piet (taildrags) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:43 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet From: "jarheadpilot82" For a general discussion of Pre Buy Inspections, what they are, what they are not, and what they should accomplish, I have attached a link to an old Uncontrolled Airspace podcast. In it, Mike Busch discusses the Pre-Buy process. He discusses it from a certified airplane standpoint, but I think that the information is still good for any one looking to buy any airplane. http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/a/4/b/a4bcfe2c77df5d62/UCAP066.mp3?c_id=1739458&expiration=1517764387&hwt=7f73f2ea0d669ea20db926b764c4b6ad -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477808#477808 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:29 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet From: "jarheadpilot82" Glen, Just to be clear, you do not ever need an IA to work on an experimental aircraft. Under the FARs, as the owner, but not the builder, of an experimental airplane you are allowed to do any maintenance on your airplane with the exception of the conditional inspection, which is not an annual. It is essentially the same thing, but it is a "conditional" inspection that can be done by either the holder of the repairman's certificate for that specific airplane, or any A&P. An Annual does require an A&P/IA. A conditional inspection does not. That is the big difference. The reality is that anybody can do a Pre-Buy on an experimental aircraft. A Pre-Buy is not even required to complete a sale, although that would be a foolish thing to do, in my opinion. I would not necessarily recommend that a buyer who has no background on a particular aircraft (such as a Pietenpol) should go it alone, but he can if he wants to. Most A&P's any more know little to nothing about wood and fabric airplanes. I would submit to you that a member of a local EAA chapter or a technical counselor who is experienced in wooden airplanes would be a far better resource to assess a Pietenpol and whether or not it was worth buying, than an A&P/IA who only works on certified aircraft. No Pre-Buy inspection ever needs to be entered into an aircraft's logbook, and, if I were the seller, the A&P chosen to do a Pre-Buy would not have my permission to enter anything in the logbook. A Pre-Buy is a look-see. It is not an inspection and really should not be called an inspection as that is a very specific term under FAR 43. Listen to the podcast that I linked to above and I think it will clear up some misconceptions on what a Pre-Buy is, what it is not, and what a Buyer should be allowed to do as part of a Pre-Buy. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477813#477813 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:17 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet From: "taildrags" Not to color this discussion too much with unrelated comments, but if you own an experimental that someone else built and registered, you may not have the option to have the builder perform the condition inspections unless the person actually applied for and received a Repairman's Certificate for it and if the person is still willing and available. The builder of my Air Camper, Corky Corbett, is no longer living. Even if he were, he might not agree to perform the inspection for liability reasons, given the modifications and changes that have been made to the airplane since I've owned it. Terry, thanks for the very valuable articles by Mike Busch. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477815#477815 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:57 AM PST US From: Glen Schweizer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet Hi Terry I agree entirely with your post. I was, however, discussing from a ga perspective as what most mechanics do as a prebuy. Most are done as an annual thus the discussion of an annual. Im fortunate to be around Stearman, Waco, staggerwings, robins etc as my job during the week so Im around people all week long who are very knowledgeable about the beautiful 70-90 year old airplanes. You are right that many mechanics think a round engine means turbine and the very thought that an airplane could be made of wood or covered in what? Could ever fly,is completely beyond comprehension. I too recommend active membership in EAA for the wealth of new people and a huge knowledge base.(where else could I learn how to back braid a cable end instead of swaging). In any case the reason for my post was to stress the importance of becoming intimately familiar with every physical aspect of the airplane youre considering putting in your hangar. Blue skies. Glen > On Feb 4, 2018, at 7:45 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > > Glen, > > Just to be clear, you do not ever need an IA to work on an experimental aircraft. Under the FARs, as the owner, but not the builder, of an experimental airplane you are allowed to do any maintenance on your airplane with the exception of the conditional inspection, which is not an annual. It is essentially the same thing, but it is a "conditional" inspection that can be done by either the holder of the repairman's certificate for that specific airplane, or any A&P. An Annual does require an A&P/IA. A conditional inspection does not. That is the big difference. > > The reality is that anybody can do a Pre-Buy on an experimental aircraft. A Pre-Buy is not even required to complete a sale, although that would be a foolish thing to do, in my opinion. I would not necessarily recommend that a buyer who has no background on a particular aircraft (such as a Pietenpol) should go it alone, but he can if he wants to. Most A&P's any more know little to nothing about wood and fabric airplanes. I would submit to you that a member of a local EAA chapter or a technical counselor who is experienced in wooden airplanes would be a far better resource to assess a Pietenpol and whether or not it was worth buying, than an A&P/IA who only works on certified aircraft. > > No Pre-Buy inspection ever needs to be entered into an aircraft's logbook, and, if I were the seller, the A&P chosen to do a Pre-Buy would not have my permission to enter anything in the logbook. A Pre-Buy is a look-see. It is not an inspection and really should not be called an inspection as that is a very specific term under FAR 43. Listen to the podcast that I linked to above and I think it will clear up some misconceptions on what a Pre-Buy is, what it is not, and what a Buyer should be allowed to do as part of a Pre-Buy. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477813#477813 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:33 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet From: "jarheadpilot82" Is a back braid the same as or similar to a 5-tuck Navy Splice? If so, you are my hero! I am extremely jealous. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477818#477818 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet From: "jarheadpilot82" Is a back braid the same as or similar to a 5-tuck Navy Splice? If so, you are my hero! I am extremely jealous. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477819#477819 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:37:20 PM PST US From: Brian Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet Great info Terry. Thanks for posting. Brian Meridian, ID Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 4, 2018, at 8:45 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > > Glen, > > Just to be clear, you do not ever need an IA to work on an experimental aircraft. Under the FARs, as the owner, but not the builder, of an experimental airplane you are allowed to do any maintenance on your airplane with the exception of the conditional inspection, which is not an annual. It is essentially the same thing, but it is a "conditional" inspection that can be done by either the holder of the repairman's certificate for that specific airplane, or any A&P. An Annual does require an A&P/IA. A conditional inspection does not. That is the big difference. > > The reality is that anybody can do a Pre-Buy on an experimental aircraft. A Pre-Buy is not even required to complete a sale, although that would be a foolish thing to do, in my opinion. I would not necessarily recommend that a buyer who has no background on a particular aircraft (such as a Pietenpol) should go it alone, but he can if he wants to. Most A&P's any more know little to nothing about wood and fabric airplanes. I would submit to you that a member of a local EAA chapter or a technical counselor who is experienced in wooden airplanes would be a far better resource to assess a Pietenpol and whether or not it was worth buying, than an A&P/IA who only works on certified aircraft. > > No Pre-Buy inspection ever needs to be entered into an aircraft's logbook, and, if I were the seller, the A&P chosen to do a Pre-Buy would not have my permission to enter anything in the logbook. A Pre-Buy is a look-see. It is not an inspection and really should not be called an inspection as that is a very specific term under FAR 43. Listen to the podcast that I linked to above and I think it will clear up some misconceptions on what a Pre-Buy is, what it is not, and what a Buyer should be allowed to do as part of a Pre-Buy. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477813#477813 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:57 PM PST US From: "Jack Philips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet Good post, Terry. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet", Pietenpol Air Camper, Flying since 2004 N142KW, RV-10, hopefully flying by the end of this year -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jarheadpilot82 Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 10:45 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet --> Glen, Just to be clear, you do not ever need an IA to work on an experimental aircraft. Under the FARs, as the owner, but not the builder, of an experimental airplane you are allowed to do any maintenance on your airplane with the exception of the conditional inspection, which is not an annual. It is essentially the same thing, but it is a "conditional" inspection that can be done by either the holder of the repairman's certificate for that specific airplane, or any A&P. An Annual does require an A&P/IA. A conditional inspection does not. That is the big difference. The reality is that anybody can do a Pre-Buy on an experimental aircraft. A Pre-Buy is not even required to complete a sale, although that would be a foolish thing to do, in my opinion. I would not necessarily recommend that a buyer who has no background on a particular aircraft (such as a Pietenpol) should go it alone, but he can if he wants to. Most A&P's any more know little to nothing about wood and fabric airplanes. I would submit to you that a member of a local EAA chapter or a technical counselor who is experienced in wooden airplanes would be a far better resource to assess a Pietenpol and whether or not it was worth buying, than an A&P/IA who only works on certified aircraft. No Pre-Buy inspection ever needs to be entered into an aircraft's logbook, and, if I were the seller, the A&P chosen to do a Pre-Buy would not have my permission to enter anything in the logbook. A Pre-Buy is a look-see. It is not an inspection and really should not be called an inspection as that is a very specific term under FAR 43. Listen to the podcast that I linked to above and I think it will clear up some misconceptions on what a Pre-Buy is, what it is not, and what a Buyer should be allowed to do as part of a Pre-Buy. -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477813#477813 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:56 PM PST US From: Glen Schweizer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet Picture a five tuck splice wrapped with safety wire then soldered. The safety wire is very distinct in that it is comprised of three sections to keep everything flexible. One segment wraps the portion where the thickness tapers to original, one in the middle of splice and fewer wraps and one where the cable forms the eye. Its kinda like trying to braid a handful of needles. The first several times I was a bloody mess. They look cool but not really seen by many people > On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:43 AM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > > Is a back braid the same as or similar to a 5-tuck Navy Splice? If so, you are my hero! I am extremely jealous. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477818#477818 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:07 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: piet From: "taildrags" Unless my memory is too cloudy to recall the details, my Dad's old Navy Bluejackets' Manual had knots and splices described in it, and he taught me the 5-tuck splice but in rope and with cord whipping, not in cable with wire. I can only imagine what it must be like to try to 5-tuck 1/8" or 3/32" aircraft cable with your bare hands! Dad served in the Navy in WWII as a meteorologist aboard the USS Jerauld. But to get back to Bill about the Subaru engine for higher altitudes, turbocharging has been done but not with the EA81 that I know of... an EA82T is on John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's) Air Camper that he flew out of Salida, CO when he owned it. Salida is at 7,083 MSL. There are photos of it on Westcoastpiet, just go to the 'Pictures' page and scroll down to the Js for John Dilatush. -------- Oscar Zuniga Medford, OR Air Camper NX41CC "Scout" A75 power, 72x36 Culver prop Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477834#477834 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.