---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/14/18: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:16 AM - Re: New member (jarheadpilot82) 2. 07:47 AM - Re: Re: New member (Kip Gardner) 3. 07:57 AM - Re: Re: New member (Steven Dortch) 4. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: New member (Bruce Clemens) 5. 11:29 AM - Re: New member (Comcast) 6. 12:11 PM - Re: New member (Jim Boyer) 7. 12:34 PM - Re: New member (BruceClemens) 8. 12:45 PM - Re: New member (BruceClemens) 9. 07:05 PM - Re: Ragwing Ultra-Piet (cdlwingnut) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:14 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member From: "jarheadpilot82" Bruce, As you may have figured out, I am passionate about the use of the corvair engine on the Pietenpol Air Camper. Two other points I thought that I would add - 1. References to using worn out parts is disingenuous on Glen's part, but for those builders concerned about the strength of the crankshaft, Dan Weseman offers a brand-new billet crank. https://flywithspa.com/product/corvairbilletcrank/ 2. You may hear references and read about Corvair Colleges held by William Wynne throughout the year. If you are considering using a Corvair engine, I would highly encourage you to attend a Corvair College. For the price of some gas money, and a hotel, and in some cases a small fee to the host for meals and support, you can be around Corvair engines. You can poke, prod, ask, even get your hands dirty helping another builder. It will be your best opportunity to get your corvair questions answered by William and others, and you can avoid internet experts who act like they know a great deal, but really know very little about the topic of Corvairs other than what they have read on the internet. To feed your interest in Corvairs, here are links to two videos about past Corvair Colleges. Coincidentally, the EAA must think enough of the quality of Corvair engines that they took the time to film the first of these videos. I think that that says a lot for the viability of the Corvair engine in experimental aviation. http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/3971877626001/corvair-college-full-version?autoStart=true&q=corvair%20College https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDfX78pa6ug&feature=youtu.be -------- Semper Fi, Terry Hand Athens, GA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480874#480874 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member From: Kip Gardner Hi Bruce, Welcome to the list. I guess you could say Im a lapsed member, and thats mainly why Im posting. I started a Piet project with high hopes over 16 years ago (been on this list since about 1998, I think) by purchasing a project from someone else. I also acquired a nice Corvair in good condition, and helped my EAA Chapter organize Corvair College #7, where I got it torn down and ready to start building back up. I also acquired a number of other items necessary to completing the project - additional wood, instruments, wheels, etc. All that said, Ive done nothing on the project in nearly 8 years, and have decided to put it up for sale. Im not trying to sell it to you, Im offering some cautionary advice. Be sure that building is what you want to do, that it is a goal in itself, and that you will be able to maintain the enthusiasm for it through the whole project. If what you mainly want to do is fly, a very complete kit of parts and assemblies, such as now sits in my shop, is of no value to you. In my case, it became an issue of time and priorities - I just saw my daughter graduate from HS, and being an active part of her life for 12 years was a priority (and neither she nor my wife have any interest in aviation, in fact, my wife is terrified of flying). Secondly, 7 years ago, at the age of 54, I had to make a major career change AND bought a farm, the development of which has been my major project since then. Id still love to fly, but Ive realized that a project as involved as a Piet is not the vehicle to that goal. So, since were all giving advice to the newbie, thats mine. This site, particularly its archive, is a wealth of information any builder can use to advantage. Changes in technology have made it less active than in the past, its heyday was in the early 2000s, and although Im not sure thats a good thing (I dont think the FaceBook Group is as useful as a builders resource), its what we have now. So, welcome from someone who now mainly lurks in the background, hopefully you will find this useful. Regards, Kip Gardner > On Jun 13, 2018, at 10:17 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > > > Bruce, > > First of all. welcome to the Forum. This is a good spot to go to for information and assistance in your build. I wish you the best as you embark on this journey. > > I would be remiss if I did not take the time to respond to Glen's comments about Corvair engines and their value as an option for your choice of powerplant. I think that Glen is doing you a disservice in giving his opinion on Corvairs. Bernard Pietenpol, the designer of this wonderful airplane, used many different engines in the various Air Campers that he built over five decades. What was the last engine that he chose to use? Yes, Bruce, you guessed correctly - a Corvair. When you go to Brodhead (and I encourage you to do so), take a look at what powers "The Last Original", Bernard Pietenpol's last Air Camper that he built. A Corvair. I find it interesting that some builders love the man and revere his choices in the aircraft design but gloss over his choice of powerplant. > > Bruce makes reliability a reason for not using a Corvair. I would suggest that instead of accepting an online opinion from some one you have not met, who may or may not have any experience with the Corvair engine, that you contact Dan Weseman, the designer of the Panther, a great kit aircraft (https://flywithspa.com/). The Panther design is very successful, fast, aerobatic, and a great airplane. Of all the engines that he could have chosen, what was the initial engine that Dan chose for the rollout of the Panther? Yes, Bruce, a Corvair. If the Corvair engine has such a problem with reliability, why would Dan choose such an engine? > > Glen also makes the cost of the engine to be another reason for not choosing the Corvair engine. I have made the choice to use a Corvair for many reasons. Probably the reason at the bottom of the list was the cost of the engine. People who are drawn to the Corvair are not drawn by cost, but rather by a thirst for knowledge. For the same reason that you desire to build an airplane with your own hands, the same motivation is what draws people to the Corvair. After having built the engine, you will know that engine as well as anyone, can work on it with confidence, and fly behind it knowing who built that engine. Who rebuilt that Continental? You don't, in all likelihood, know him or her, so you do not know how good a mechanic they are (or how bad, for that matter). > > Here is my take on your choices. Do your homework. Don't just listen to Glen, or to me. Go to FlyCorvair.com and FlyCorvair.net and read all that you can on the subject of Corvair engines. Contact William Wynne and ask him about Corvair engines. He freely posts his cell phone number on his website. Go to other websites and learn as much as you can on the other engine choices, and then make an informed decision based upon what you feel is best for you. If you do decide to build a Corvair powered Air Camper, I encourage you to go to the Pietvair Forum at http://pietvair.freeforums.net/ and join. It is a website exclusively for builders and flyers of the Pietenpol/Corvair combination. It is a great group of people and I encourage you to use that as a great source of knowledge, assistance, and encouragement. I am the moderator of that forum, an I encourage you to use it as one of your tools as you build. > > Again, welcome to the Forum, and keep us posted as you move forward. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480872#480872 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:28 AM PST US From: Steven Dortch Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member Bruce, here is some free advice, and worth every penny. Go to www.pietenpols.org and join. Find westcostpiet.com, as well as the several Facebook pages. Blue Skies, Steve Dortch On Thu, Jun 14, 2018, 9:51 AM Kip Gardner wrote: > > > Hi Bruce, > > Welcome to the list. I guess you could say I=99m a =98lapsed =99 member, and > that=99s mainly why I=99m posting. I started a Piet project with high hopes > over 16 years ago (been on this list since about 1998, I think) by > purchasing a project from someone else. I also acquired a nice Corvair i n > good condition, and helped my EAA Chapter organize Corvair College #7, > where I got it torn down and ready to start building back up. I also > acquired a number of other items necessary to completing the project - > additional wood, instruments, wheels, etc. All that said, I=99ve d one > nothing on the project in nearly 8 years, and have decided to put it up f or > sale. I=99m not trying to sell it to you, I=99m offering som e cautionary > advice. Be sure that building is what you want to do, that it is a goal in > itself, and that you will be able to maintain the enthusiasm for it throu gh > the whole project. If what you mainly want to do is fly, a very complete > =98kit=99 of parts and assemblies,! > such as now sits in my shop, is of no value to you. In my case, it > became an issue of time and priorities - I just saw my daughter graduate > from HS, and being an active part of her life for 12 years was a priority > (and neither she nor my wife have any interest in aviation, in fact, my > wife is terrified of flying). Secondly, 7 years ago, at the age of 54, I > had to make a major career change AND bought a farm, the development of > which has been my major =98project=99 since then. I=99 d still love to fly, but > I=99ve realized that a project as involved as a Piet is not the veh icle to > that goal. > > So, since we=99re all giving advice to the =98newbie=99 , that=99s mine. This site, > particularly it=99s archive, is a wealth of information any builder can use > to advantage. Changes in technology have made it less active than in the > past, it=99s heyday was in the early 2000=99s, and although I =99m not sure that=99s > a good thing (I don=99t think the FaceBook Group is as useful as a builder=99s > resource), it=99s what we have now. > > So, welcome from someone who now mainly =98lurks=99 in the ba ckground, > hopefully you will find this useful. > > Regards, > > Kip Gardner > > > On Jun 13, 2018, at 10:17 PM, jarheadpilot82 > wrote: > > > jarheadpilot82@hotmail.com> > > > > Bruce, > > > > First of all. welcome to the Forum. This is a good spot to go to for > information and assistance in your build. I wish you the best as you emba rk > on this journey. > > > > I would be remiss if I did not take the time to respond to Glen's > comments about Corvair engines and their value as an option for your choi ce > of powerplant. I think that Glen is doing you a disservice in giving his > opinion on Corvairs. Bernard Pietenpol, the designer of this wonderful > airplane, used many different engines in the various Air Campers that he > built over five decades. What was the last engine that he chose to use? > Yes, Bruce, you guessed correctly - a Corvair. When you go to Brodhead (a nd > I encourage you to do so), take a look at what powers "The Last Original" , > Bernard Pietenpol's last Air Camper that he built. A Corvair. I find it > interesting that some builders love the man and revere his choices in the > aircraft design but gloss over his choice of powerplant. > > > > Bruce makes reliability a reason for not using a Corvair. I would > suggest that instead of accepting an online opinion from some one you hav e > not met, who may or may not have any experience with the Corvair engine, > that you contact Dan Weseman, the designer of the Panther, a great kit > aircraft (https://flywithspa.com/). The Panther design is very > successful, fast, aerobatic, and a great airplane. Of all the engines th at > he could have chosen, what was the initial engine that Dan chose for the > rollout of the Panther? Yes, Bruce, a Corvair. If the Corvair engine has > such a problem with reliability, why would Dan choose such an engine? > > > > Glen also makes the cost of the engine to be another reason for not > choosing the Corvair engine. I have made the choice to use a Corvair for > many reasons. Probably the reason at the bottom of the list was the cost of > the engine. People who are drawn to the Corvair are not drawn by cost, bu t > rather by a thirst for knowledge. For the same reason that you desire to > build an airplane with your own hands, the same motivation is what draws > people to the Corvair. After having built the engine, you will know that > engine as well as anyone, can work on it with confidence, and fly behind it > knowing who built that engine. Who rebuilt that Continental? You don't, i n > all likelihood, know him or her, so you do not know how good a mechanic > they are (or how bad, for that matter). > > > > Here is my take on your choices. Do your homework. Don't just listen to > Glen, or to me. Go to FlyCorvair.com and FlyCorvair.net and read all that > you can on the subject of Corvair engines. Contact William Wynne and ask > him about Corvair engines. He freely posts his cell phone number on his > website. Go to other websites and learn as much as you can on the other > engine choices, and then make an informed decision based upon what you fe el > is best for you. If you do decide to build a Corvair powered Air Camper, I > encourage you to go to the Pietvair Forum at > http://pietvair.freeforums.net/ and join. It is a website exclusively for > builders and flyers of the Pietenpol/Corvair combination. It is a great > group of people and I encourage you to use that as a great source of > knowledge, assistance, and encouragement. I am the moderator of that foru m, > an I encourage you to use it as one of your tools as you build. > > > > Again, welcome to the Forum, and keep us posted as you move forward. > > > > -------- > > Semper Fi, > > > > Terry Hand > > Athens, GA > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480872#480872 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:49 AM PST US From: Bruce Clemens Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member Kip,kudos to you for keeping your priorities right!Your introspection is th e sign of a wise man.I appreciate what you say and take it well.=C2-Yes, I agree this will likely be a long project fraught with many opportunities for discouragement. However,I believe I am in in a relatively good position to do this-It's just me and my wife and she is supportive. Once we move to our Happy Place in NM, I will have no other commitments. We have a home on an airport with a really cool flying community and several friends and nei ghbors who have a wealth of building and flying experience.And I am an inve terate builder.I see no issues with the airframe, but I am a bit intimidate d by the learning curve ahead of me with regard to acquiring and building a good motor.Thank you so much for your words of wisdom. And best wishes to you for your farm and (let me put on my hat as a community college instruct or) to your daughter as she takes her next steps into adulthood! Congratula tions!Bruce From: Kip Gardner To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2018 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member Hi Bruce, Welcome to the list.=C2- I guess you could say I=99m a =98lap sed=99 member, and that=99s mainly why I=99m posting.=C2 - I started a Piet project with high hopes over 16 years ago (been on thi s list since about 1998, I think) by purchasing a project from someone else .=C2- I also acquired a nice Corvair in good condition, and helped my EAA Chapter organize Corvair College #7, where I got it torn down and ready to start building back up.=C2- I also acquired a number of other items nece ssary to completing the project - additional wood, instruments, wheels, etc .=C2- All that said, I=99ve done nothing on the project in nearly 8 years, and have decided to put it up for sale.=C2- I=99m not tryin g to sell it to you, I=99m offering some cautionary advice.=C2- Be sure that building is what you want to do, that it is a goal in itself, and that you will be able to maintain the enthusiasm for it through the whole project.=C2- If what you mainly want to do is fly, a very complete =98kit=99 of parts and assemblies,! =C2- such as now sits in my shop, is of no value to you.=C2- In my case , it became an issue of time and priorities - I just saw my daughter gradua te from HS, and being an active part of her life for 12 years was a priorit y (and neither she nor my wife have any interest in aviation, in fact, my w ife is terrified of flying).=C2- Secondly, 7 years ago, at the age of 54, I had to make a major career change AND bought a farm, the development of which has been my major =98project=99 since then.=C2- I =99d still love to fly, but I=99ve realized that a project as involve d as a Piet is not the vehicle to that goal. So, since we=99re all giving advice to the =98newbie=99, that=99s mine. This site, particularly it=99s archive, is a wea lth of information any builder can use to advantage.=C2- Changes in techn ology have made it less active than in the past, it=99s heyday was in the early 2000=99s, and although I=99m not sure that=99s a good thing (I don=99t think the FaceBook Group is as useful as a b uilder=99s resource), it=99s what we have now. So, welcome from someone who now mainly =98lurks=99 in the back ground, hopefully you will find this useful. Regards, Kip Gardner > On Jun 13, 2018, at 10:17 PM, jarheadpilot82 wrote: > tmail.com> > > Bruce, > > First of all. welcome to the Forum. This is a good spot to go to for info rmation and assistance in your build. I wish you the best as you embark on this journey. > > I would be remiss if I did not take the time to respond to Glen's comment s about Corvair engines and their value as an option for your choice of pow erplant. I think that Glen is doing you a disservice in giving his opinion on Corvairs. Bernard Pietenpol, the designer of this wonderful airplane, us ed many different engines in the various Air Campers that he built over fiv e decades. What was the last engine that he chose to use? Yes, Bruce, you g uessed correctly - a Corvair. When you go to Brodhead (and I encourage you to do so), take a look at what powers "The Last Original", Bernard Pietenpo l's last Air Camper that he built. A Corvair. I find it interesting that so me builders love the man and revere his choices in the aircraft design but gloss over his choice of powerplant. > > Bruce makes reliability a reason for not using a Corvair. I would suggest that instead of accepting an online opinion from some one you have not met , who may or may not have any experience with the Corvair engine, that you contact Dan Weseman, the designer of the Panther, a great kit aircraft (htt ps://flywithspa.com/). The Panther design is very successful,=C2- fast, a erobatic, and a great airplane. Of all the engines that he could have chose n, what was the initial engine that Dan chose for the rollout of the Panthe r? Yes, Bruce, a Corvair. If the Corvair engine has such a problem with rel iability, why would Dan choose such an engine? > > Glen also makes the cost of the engine to be another reason for not choos ing the Corvair engine. I have made the choice to use a Corvair for many re asons. Probably the reason at the bottom of the list was the cost of the en gine. People who are drawn to the Corvair are not drawn by cost, but rather by a thirst for knowledge. For the same reason that you desire to build an airplane with your own hands, the same motivation is what draws people to the Corvair. After having built the engine, you will know that engine as we ll as anyone, can work on it with confidence, and fly behind it knowing who built that engine. Who rebuilt that Continental? You don't, in all likelih ood, know him or her, so you do not know how good a mechanic they are (or h ow bad, for that matter). > > Here is my take on your choices. Do your homework. Don't just listen to G len, or to me. Go to FlyCorvair.com and FlyCorvair.net and read all that yo u can on the subject of Corvair engines. Contact William Wynne and ask him about Corvair engines. He freely posts his cell phone number on his website . Go to other websites and learn as much as you can on the other engine cho ices, and then make an informed decision based upon what you feel is best f or you. If you do decide to build a Corvair powered Air Camper, I encourage you to go to the Pietvair Forum at http://pietvair.freeforums.net/ and joi n. It is a website exclusively for builders and flyers of the Pietenpol/Cor vair combination. It is a great group of people and I encourage you to use that as a great source of knowledge, assistance, and encouragement. I am th e moderator of that forum, an I encourage you to use it as one of your tool s as you build. > > Again, welcome to the Forum, and keep us posted as you move forward. > > -------- > Semper Fi, > > Terry Hand > Athens, GA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480872#480872 > > > > > > > > > S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:29:31 AM PST US From: Comcast <4rcsimmons@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New member Hello, Welcome! If you enjoy building and working with wood, you will enjoy this as a project. This is my second plane to build. The first was a Zenith 601XL using the Jabiru engine. I have a face book page that I place images on occasionally. Feel free to take a peak. Im nobody special and probably do things differently. Your welcome to take a look and or follow. For engines I too have choose the corvair. I love the sound of the Ford 4cyl and the small continentals. However as you read, on the high density altitude days, the low HP engines struggle. I would rather have the extra horsepower. Engine choice as well as any aspect of the build belongs to you. Build what you want how you want using the wisdom of proper methods spelled out in the AC-43-13. It will always be yours even after its sold. It will still carry your name. I called my 1st plane my dream catcher. And that it is! It was a dream and now Im flying it. The piet is another project because I enjoy building. Build what you want and how you want. And dont for get, one bit at a time. Eventually you will get there. Regards, - Rich ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:56 PM PST US From: Jim Boyer Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New member HI Bruce, good luck with the experimental whatever you choose. I am in process of building a Pietenpol with a Corvair engine. I flew a Corbin Baby Ace for a couple of weeks and enjoyed it so much I decided to build the Piet even though I used to have to bribe my daughters to go flying with me.Cheers, Jim > On June 13, 2018 at 4:10 PM Bruce Clemens wrote: > > Jim, > yes, thanks. So glad I'm no longer in CA. And yes, mine will be Experimental. Best wishes for your continued flying in the State of California. Or for anything else you wish to do there under Gov. Brown. > > > > --------------------------------------------- > From: Jim Boyer > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New member > > Certified airplanes will cost much in terms of annual inspections and just general maintenance. My 172 cost me $6700 in annuals and relatively minor changes; ie. generator to alternator in the last three years. Here in CA hangar rents are high, gas 100LL is high and maintenance rates are high. I would never go certified again, experimental is the way to go, as you can get repairmans certificate for the airplane you have built. My biases! Jim > > > > On June 13, 2018 at 12:39 PM Bruce Clemens wrote: > > > > Hello,I just joined this list.I am recently retired and my wife will soon be. > > We rcently bought a little home and hangar at Hacienda Sur Luna Airpark in deep southern New Mexico. We love it there. > > Not yet there full time but in a year or so we will sell our home in Missouri and move out. > > I don't have a plane and have been considering what I would like to fly around when we get out there. It's class G airspace. > > I got my license in a J-3 a long time ago and most of my flying time is in taildraggers. I just can't bring myself to buy a Cessna 150 or something like that cheap just to get in the air. But good taildraggers seem to command a premium that I can't easily afford. > > I think that for tooling around on a beautiful desert morning, an Air Camper would be perfect. > > No radio, no hassles, just pure early 20th century flying. > > I think I can build all of it and will try to begin with the engine. > > Corvair? > > Any counter opinions? > > I am ready to learn. > > Best, > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:34 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member From: "BruceClemens" One of the beautiful things about experimental aviation is that there are always more than just one way to do something again welcome aboard get to cuttin an gluin!! Yes! Thank you Glen. That's one of the great things about the Pietenpol...it can be built to suit. I appreciate your viewpoint and input! Bruce Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480895#480895 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:24 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New member From: "BruceClemens" simmor2 wrote: > Hello, > > Welcome! > > If you enjoy building and working with wood, you will enjoy this as a project. > > Hi, Rich, > Yes I do very much. > > This is my second plane to build. The first was a Zenith 601XL using the Jabiru engine. > > I have a face book page that I place images on occasionally. Feel free to take a peak. Im nobody special and probably do things differently. Your welcome to take a look and or follow. > > Sure will. Thank you. > > > For engines I too have choose the corvair. > > I love the sound of the Ford 4cyl and the small continentals. However as you read, on the high density altitude days, the low HP engines struggle. I would rather have the extra horsepower. > > Our runway is over 4000 foot elevation in the Chihuahuan desert. Density altitude can be an issue! > > Engine choice as well as any aspect of the build belongs to you. Build what you want how you want using the wisdom of proper methods spelled out in the AC-43-13. It will always be yours even after its sold. It will still carry your name. > > I called my 1st plane my dream catcher. And that it is! It was a dream and now Im flying it. > > A dream come true. Congrats! > > The piet is another project because I enjoy building. > > Build what you want and how you want. > And dont for get, one bit at a time. > > Yes, eating the elephant! LOL > > Eventually you will get there. > > Regards, > - Rich Thank you, Rich! Best wishes , Bruce Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480897#480897 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:51 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ragwing Ultra-Piet From: "cdlwingnut" I haven't given up on the little piet. Summer has been busy so far all the new progress i have made is cutting aluminum for the control stick and torque tube. 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