---------------------------------------------------------- Pulsar-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/17/11: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:03 AM - Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options (Keith Palmer) 2. 11:44 AM - Fw: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options (Ron Koval) 3. 09:53 PM - Re: Fw: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options (Keith Palmer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:59 AM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: Pulsar-List: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options Hi Dre, No I did not use O'briens system so I don't know what they can offer. But I was in the braking game ( years ago ) where we designed brakes for different applicatios from the motor industry (racing cars to heavy trucks) to drag brakes for mine hoists & winches. It is a very technical subject and brakes are normally designed for a very specific function and is always a compromise when you need say a drag brake (for slowing over a long period) and an emergency brake (for stopping quicky within seconds). In simplistic terms, In the first instance you need a Low friction material, with a big contact area, using a low pressure system, so as not to generate excessive heat and burn the lining out, In the second instance for quick stopping you need High Friction Material and high pressure for your quick stopping, remember energy converts into heat so you can't have a long application of the brakes without fade or burn out of the lining in this instance. Now with the Pulsar nose wheel you are steering and braking, ie in a compromise situation at each end of the scale because you want a Drag brake for steering and an emergency brake for stopping, So you have the choice of light weight band brake or a heavier disc brake system , both have there compromise situations. so you must fly accordingly to what you have installed, so as not to extend the limits of thier weakest features. I went for the light drag drum brake and taildragger config for steering. I hope this helps with understanding some of the braking problems expressed recently. As mentioned this is a very technical subject and have been unable to give a full explaination in this short text, but I could try and answer some specific questions if necessary. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: d. re To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options great idea do you have obriens and if so does he have different grades of friction materials that you know of tks dre --- On Fri, 1/14/11, Keith Palmer wrote: From: Keith Palmer Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 3:49 PM =EF=BB If you are not getting enough pad pressure try a higher friction grade material for improved braking, but remember you will generate more heat so don't over do it. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: david edwards To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options Ron I put the obreins on my 582 but I used to small of Cylinders and don't effect enough pad pressure to lock Them up From the desk of dre On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Ron Koval wrote: Pulsar Enthusiasts, I am in the process of converting my band brakes to hydraulics. I got the master cylinder installation well along, but haven't purchased a brake system for the main wheels yet. Here are the options I am very aware of. First the most popular Matco WHLW50CC.75 wheel and internal caliper with WHLAXLE7 axle. The other option I have found which would use my current AZUSA 5" wheels is the Great Plains brake kit http://www.greatplainsas.com/schbrakes.html which I don't know of anybody that has used this system. I also called Tracy Obrien about his C90 brakes which also works with the AZUSA 5" wheels, but he did not have any in stock and seemed reluctant to commit to an order. Outside of the Matco system, is there anybody that has had success with one of these other or another wheel/hydraulic brake system? Best regards, Ron Koval N1037L __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (13) Recent Activity: a.. New Members 3 Visit Your Group MARKETPLACE Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest =A2 Unsubscribe =A2 Terms of Use. __,_._,___ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:26 AM PST US From: Ron Koval Subject: Pulsar-List: Fw: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options =0AFrom: Ron Koval =0ATo: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.co m=0ASent: Mon, January 17, 2011 1:36:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options=0A=0A=0ADisc Brake Pulsars Owners:=0A=0AThe respon ses sharing experiences with brakes on our Pulsars has been a great =0Alear ning experience for me.=0A=0AI need to ask those that have disc brake syste ms a question.=C2- Previous to owning =0Aa Pulsar, I owned a Grumman Chee tah that has a castering nose wheel, =0Adifferential steering and braking w ith hydraulic brakes, with gross weight of =0A2200lbs.=C2- To the best of my memory, I don't ever remember experiencing brake =0Afade, a manufacture d a/c may have twice the brake it needs for safety margin.=C2- =0AWhen I had new brake pads installed, the mechanic gave me specific instructions, =0Ato glaze the brakes.=C2-=C2-Two to three passes of his 4000' runway, applying the =0Abrakes heavily to build up heat and glaze the pads.=C2- He noted, you know you are =0Adone when at the end of the=C2-second or th ird pass, while maintaining your =0Athrottle, you still increase braking po wer significantly.=C2- He also noted that =0Abrakes need=C2-to be=C2- used enough to=C2-produce enough heat to maintain this glazing, =0Aso don 't baby them with long roll outs.=0A=0ADo you Pulsar owners with Matco and other disc brake, do this glazing process on =0Aa new set of brake pads?=0A =0AIn advance, thanks again for your valuable feedback.=0A=0ARon=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Peter Walker =0ATo: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com=0ASent: Mon, January 17, 2 011 4:07:18 AM=0ASubject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options=0A =0A=C2- =0AHello =0ABrakes and everything in life is a compromise The tri ck is picking the one that =0Aworks for YOU=0AA Pulsar is a fairly slippery bird and lands normally on paved runways with =0Alittle rolling=C2-resis tance Your main concern is stopping from speed in a =0Acontrolled and=C2- consistent=C2-manner Once per flight Pads don't make heat They =0Aconvert kinetic energy to heat High friction pads only convert it faster by =0Ared ucing the time and distance=0A=C2-As for the difficulty in locking up the brakes (mag check?) its possible you =0Aare suffering knock off where the pads are knocked open by the wheel rocking =0Abecause of freeplay or warped discs You then lose much of the cylinders stroke =0Ajust taking up slack Y ou may also might be using hoses with too low a pressure =0Arating that swe ll when under pressure=C2-=0ABTW I worked with brakes too=0APeter=0A=0A =0A--- On Mon, 1/17/11, Keith Palmer wrote:=0A=0A=0A> From: Keith Palmer =0A>Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options=0A>To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com=0A>Cc: pulsa r-list@matronics.com=0A>Date: Monday, January 17, 2011, 8:00 PM=0A>=0A>=0A> =C2- =0A>=EF=BB =0A>Hi Dre,=0A>=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- No I did not use=C2-O'briens system so I=C2-don't know what they can =0A>offer.=0A>=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-But I was in the braking game ( years ago ) whe re we designed brakes =0A>for different applicatios from the motor industry (racing cars to heavy trucks)=C2- =0A>to drag brakes for mine hoists & w inches. It is a very technical subject and =0A>brakes are normally designed =C2- for a very specific=C2-function and is always a =0A>compromise whe n you need say a drag brake (for slowing over a long period)=C2- and =0A> an emergency brake (for stopping quicky within seconds). In simplistic =0A> terms,=C2-=C2-In the first instance you need a Low friction material, w ith a big =0A>contact area, using a low pressure system, so as not to gener ate excessive heat =0A>and burn the lining out, In the second instance for quick stopping you need High =0A>Friction Material and high pressure for yo ur quick stopping, remember energy =0A>converts into heat so you can't have a long application of the brakes without =0A>fade or burn out of the linin g in this instance.=0A>=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2 -=C2- Now with the Pulsar nose wheel=C2- you are steering and braking , ie in a =0A>compromise situation at each end of the scale=C2-because yo u want a Drag brake for =0A>steering and an emergency brake for stopping, S o you have the choice of light =0A>weight band brake or a heavier disc brak e system , both have there compromise =0A>situations. so you must fly accor dingly to what you have installed, so as not to =0A>extend the limits of th ier weakest features.=0A>=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- I went for the light drag drum brake and taildragg er config for =0A>steering.=0A>=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-I hope this helps with understanding=C2 -=C2-some of the braking problems =0A>expressed recently. As mentioned this is a very technical subject and have been =0A>unable to give a full ex plaination in this short text, but I=C2-could try and =0A>answer some spe cific questions if necessary.=0A>=C2-=0A>Keith=C2-=C2- =0A>=C2-=C2 -=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- =0A>=C2-=0A>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>From: d. re =0A>>To: Pulsa r-Aviators@yahoogroups.com =0A>>Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:13 PM=0A >>Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options=0A>>=0A>>=C2- =0A>>great idea=0A>>do you have obriens and if so does he have different gr ades of friction =0A>>materials=0A>>that you know of=0A>>tks=0A>>dre=0A>> =0A>>--- On Fri, 1/14/11, Keith Palmer wrote:=0A>>=0A >>=0A>>>From: Keith Palmer =0A>>>Subject: Re: [Pulsar- Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options=0A>>>To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com =0A>>>Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 3:49 PM=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=C2- =0A>> >=EF=BB =0A>>>If you are not getting enough pad pressure try a higher fr iction grade material =0A>>>for improved braking, but remember you will gen erate more heat so don't over do =0A>>>it.=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>Keith=0A>>>=C2 -=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>=C2-=0A>>>----- Original Message ----- =0A>>>>From: david edwards =0A>>>>To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com =0A>>>>Sent: Monda y, January 10, 2011 6:21 PM=0A>>>>Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=C2- =0A>>>>Ron I put the obreins on my 582 =C2-but I used to small of=0A>>>>Cylinders and don't effect enough pad pr essure to lock=0A>>>>Them up=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>From the des k of dre=0A>>>>=0A>>>>On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Ron Koval wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=C2- =0A>>>>>Pulsar Enthusiasts,=0A>>>> >=0A>>>>>I am in the process of converting my band brakes to hydraulics.=C2 - I got the =0A>>>>>master cylinder installation well along, but haven't purchased a brake system =0A>>>>>for the main wheels yet.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>He re are the options I am very aware of.=C2-=C2-=C2-First the most popu lar Matco =0A>>>>>WHLW50CC.75 wheel and internal caliper with WHLAXLE7 axle .=C2- The other option I =0A>>>>>have found which would use my current AZ USA 5" wheels is the Great Plains brake =0A>>>>>kit http://www.greatplainsa s.com/schbrakes.html=C2-which I don't know of anybody =0A>>>>>that has us ed this system.=C2- I also called Tracy Obrien about his C90 brakes =0A>> >>>which also works with the AZUSA 5" wheels, but he did not have any in st ock and =0A>>>>>seemed reluctant to commit to an order.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Outs ide of the Matco system, is there anybody that has had success with one of =0A>>>>>these other or another wheel/hydraulic brake system?=0A>>>>>=0A>>>> >Best regards,=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Ron Koval=0A>>>>>N1037L =0A>> =0A__._,_.___ =0AReply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topi c =0AMessages in this topic (15) =0A=0ARecent Activity: * New Members 4 =0AVisit Your Group =0A =0ASwitch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest =A2 Uns ubscribe =A2 Terms of Use=0A. =0A=0A__,_._,___ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:55 PM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options Ron, I will try and answer queries within your text :- Disc Brake Pulsars Owners: The responses sharing experiences with brakes on our Pulsars has been a great learning experience for me. I need to ask those that have disc brake systems a question. Previous to owning a Pulsar, I owned a Grumman Cheetah that has a castering nose wheel, differential steering and braking with hydraulic brakes, with gross weight of 2200lbs. To the best of my memory, I don't ever remember experiencing brake fade, a manufactured a/c may have twice the brake it needs for safety margin.You are right they have used a low to medium friction material to avoid fade and burning but have given you a high pressure caliper (Heavy) which will give you better braking with this material When I had new brake pads installed, the mechanic gave me specific instructions, to glaze the brakes. Two to three passes of his 4000' runway, applying the brakes heavily to build up heat and glaze the pads. He noted, you know you are done when at the end of the second or third pass, while maintaining your throttle, you still increase braking power significantly. He also noted that brakes need to be used enough to produce enough heat to maintain this glazing, so don't baby them with long roll outs. When pads are made and baked they only get a crust on the surface ( like bread ) as they wear down they keep the mating surface crust baked hard, When you replace pads without skimming the discs you normally find the disc has a corrigated surface. So you need to bed the pads in ( Glaze ) as only the high ridges on the disc will touch the new flat pad and only the areas touching will act as a breaking surface could be down to 10% .And when they are bedded in (glazed) will they give you full mating and therefore braking. You should not let the discs get to corrigated as this increases the braking pad square area which will need more hydraulic pressure to get the same pounds per square inch to get the correct breaking pressure on the disc Do you Pulsar owners with Matco and other disc brake, do this glazing process on a new set of brake pads?Best give a light skim if needed on your car and plane discs and go easy until bedded in In advance, thanks again for your valuable feedback. Ron Hope this gives some ideas on the points raised. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Koval To: Pulsar Builders Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 9:37 PM Subject: Pulsar-List: Fw: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options From: Ron Koval To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 1:36:03 PM Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options Disc Brake Pulsars Owners: The responses sharing experiences with brakes on our Pulsars has been a great learning experience for me. I need to ask those that have disc brake systems a question. Previous to owning a Pulsar, I owned a Grumman Cheetah that has a castering nose wheel, differential steering and braking with hydraulic brakes, with gross weight of 2200lbs. To the best of my memory, I don't ever remember experiencing brake fade, a manufactured a/c may have twice the brake it needs for safety margin. When I had new brake pads installed, the mechanic gave me specific instructions, to glaze the brakes. Two to three passes of his 4000' runway, applying the brakes heavily to build up heat and glaze the pads. He noted, you know you are done when at the end of the second or third pass, while maintaining your throttle, you still increase braking power significantly. He also noted that brakes need to be used enough to produce enough heat to maintain this glazing, so don't baby them with long roll outs. Do you Pulsar owners with Matco and other disc brake, do this glazing process on a new set of brake pads? In advance, thanks again for your valuable feedback. Ron ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Peter Walker To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 4:07:18 AM Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options Hello Brakes and everything in life is a compromise The trick is picking the one that works for YOU A Pulsar is a fairly slippery bird and lands normally on paved runways with little rolling resistance Your main concern is stopping from speed in a controlled and consistent manner Once per flight Pads don't make heat They convert kinetic energy to heat High friction pads only convert it faster by reducing the time and distance As for the difficulty in locking up the brakes (mag check?) its possible you are suffering knock off where the pads are knocked open by the wheel rocking because of freeplay or warped discs You then lose much of the cylinders stroke just taking up slack You may also might be using hoses with too low a pressure rating that swell when under pressure BTW I worked with brakes too Peter --- On Mon, 1/17/11, Keith Palmer wrote: From: Keith Palmer Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Cc: pulsar-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, January 17, 2011, 8:00 PM =EF=BB Hi Dre, No I did not use O'briens system so I don't know what they can offer. But I was in the braking game ( years ago ) where we designed brakes for different applicatios from the motor industry (racing cars to heavy trucks) to drag brakes for mine hoists & winches. It is a very technical subject and brakes are normally designed for a very specific function and is always a compromise when you need say a drag brake (for slowing over a long period) and an emergency brake (for stopping quicky within seconds). In simplistic terms, In the first instance you need a Low friction material, with a big contact area, using a low pressure system, so as not to generate excessive heat and burn the lining out, In the second instance for quick stopping you need High Friction Material and high pressure for your quick stopping, remember energy converts into heat so you can't have a long application of the brakes without fade or burn out of the lining in this instance. Now with the Pulsar nose wheel you are steering and braking, ie in a compromise situation at each end of the scale because you want a Drag brake for steering and an emergency brake for stopping, So you have the choice of light weight band brake or a heavier disc brake system , both have there compromise situations. so you must fly accordingly to what you have installed, so as not to extend the limits of thier weakest features. I went for the light drag drum brake and taildragger config for steering. I hope this helps with understanding some of the braking problems expressed recently. As mentioned this is a very technical subject and have been unable to give a full explaination in this short text, but I could try and answer some specific questions if necessary. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: d. re To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options great idea do you have obriens and if so does he have different grades of friction materials that you know of tks dre --- On Fri, 1/14/11, Keith Palmer wrote: From: Keith Palmer Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 3:49 PM =EF=BB If you are not getting enough pad pressure try a higher friction grade material for improved braking, but remember you will generate more heat so don't over do it. Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: david edwards To: Pulsar-Aviators@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [Pulsar-Aviators] Hydraulic Brake Options Ron I put the obreins on my 582 but I used to small of Cylinders and don't effect enough pad pressure to lock Them up From the desk of dre On Jan 10, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Ron Koval wrote: Pulsar Enthusiasts, I am in the process of converting my band brakes to hydraulics. I got the master cylinder installation well along, but haven't purchased a brake system for the main wheels yet. Here are the options I am very aware of. First the most popular Matco WHLW50CC.75 wheel and internal caliper with WHLAXLE7 axle. The other option I have found which would use my current AZUSA 5" wheels is the Great Plains brake kit http://www.greatplainsas.com/schbrakes.html which I don't know of anybody that has used this system. I also called Tracy Obrien about his C90 brakes which also works with the AZUSA 5" wheels, but he did not have any in stock and seemed reluctant to commit to an order. Outside of the Matco system, is there anybody that has had success with one of these other or another wheel/hydraulic brake system? Best regards, Ron Koval N1037L __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (15) Recent Activity: a.. 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