---------------------------------------------------------- Pulsar-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/21/12: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:46 AM - N912RV power failure on takeoff (Bob Heiser) 2. 06:47 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (pilot623) 3. 08:25 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Ray Wilhelm) 4. 11:14 AM - Pulsars in SA (Ron Koval) 5. 11:42 AM - Re: Pulsars in SA (Keith Palmer) 6. 12:49 PM - Pulsars in SA (Keith Palmer) 7. 01:30 PM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Dennis Adams) 8. 01:43 PM - Pulsar Parts (Bob Heiser) 9. 02:00 PM - Re: Pulsar Parts (GREGSMI@aol.com) 10. 09:23 PM - Re: Pulsar Parts (Keith Palmer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:57 AM PST US From: Bob Heiser Subject: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump? The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff. ================================================================== With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power. Checked inside the right tank for debris none found. The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain.We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris.We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing.No water and just a few specks of dirt were found. Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly. The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty. We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump.Unable to blow air into either tank. The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is:Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump. We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump.Still unable to blow through the electric pump.Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump.All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses. We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump.Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom.After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted.The removal process cleared the obstruction.We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found. When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago. Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit.It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start.There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on. It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs? -- *God Bless Bob Heiser W7IKT* ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:30 AM PST US From: "pilot623" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff Hi Bob, I was saddened to hear of the loss of your plane but very glad to hear that you were not seriously injured. You didn't mention Carol so I assume she was not on board. Your post today raised a few questions and thoughts. Assume you were trying to feed from the right tank. You say it appeared empty. Was there any crash damage to the tank that would have caused it to lose its contents? If not, this sounds like a simple case of fuel starvation due to an empty tank. I must be missing something here. Regarding inability to blow air from the the mechanical pump's input hose towards the tanks, I have never tried this experiment but I suspect the Facet pump is designed to operate with flow in one direction only and by design, it may have been stopping air flow in the reverse direction. I don't have much experience running my engine at any speed with fuel valves turned off but seem to remember at low idle, the carb supply of fuel is exhausted in around 1 minute and at 4000-5000 rpm, 20-30 seconds. I'm very interested in hearing how this all turns out. Jim Like saving money? Who doesn't! Go to http://www.ultimatesavingsonline.com and register to get some great deals! It's free so you have nothing to lose. _____ From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 7:44 AM Subject: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump? The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff. ================================================================== With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power. . Checked inside the right tank for debris none found. . The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found. . Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly. . The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty. . We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank. . The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump. . We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses. . We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found. When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago. Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on. It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs? -- God Bless Bob Heiser W7IKT ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:57 AM PST US From: "Ray Wilhelm" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don't remember by who) that the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pumps had been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in the field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my plane we were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven pump could still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did install the check valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water pressure. Never worried about it since. I do verify the check valve works every year at my conditional inspection. Ray Pulsar III/3300 From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Heiser Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM Subject: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump? The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff. ================================================================== With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the loss of power. . Checked inside the right tank for debris none found. . The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found. . Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly. . The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty. . We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into either tank. . The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump. . We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses. . We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found. When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt he built years ago. Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the electric pump on. It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the carbs? -- God Bless Bob Heiser W7IKT ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:05 AM PST US From: Ron Koval Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsars in SA Pulsar Friends,=0A=0AMy work has taken me to beautiful Dammam, Saudi Arabia for 4 weeks.- Anybody =0Aknow any Pulsar owners-in the area?- Wow, w ill I be surprised if I get a =0Apositive response.=0A=0AGas is about $0.45 /gallon here.=0A=0AOn lucky thing on the work trip, I will get to see the F ormula 1 race live.=0A=0AHave a great day.=0A=0ARon ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:11 AM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Pulsars in SA There was only one in SA (Saudi Arabia) it is now in SA (South Africa) - Can't be flown or sold because it was never registered and there is no paper work. Keith South Africa PS I can send you some photos ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Koval To: Pulsar Builders Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:13 PM Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsars in SA Pulsar Friends, My work has taken me to beautiful Dammam, Saudi Arabia for 4 weeks. Anybody know any Pulsar owners in the area? Wow, will I be surprised if I get a positive response. Gas is about $0.45/gallon here. On lucky thing on the work trip, I will get to see the Formula 1 race live. Have a great day. Ron ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:37 PM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsars in SA Sorry it was in UAE belonged to a Sheik who did 50hours in it then gave it away and bought a.......................... See attachment top of page 2 Keith ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:30:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff From: Dennis Adams All, I did a little research on the Webb concerning Facet fuel pump failures. There is a marine site claiming that this failure mode is/was fairly common and that Facet knew about it but did not go through a recall. Instead Facet came out with a new model, the E model that does not have this failure mode and assumed the others would eventually be sold and replaced with the new model. It seems that Spruce sells both, not sure if the Spruce non- E model has the problem solved or not. This failure mode was completely unknown to me. Dennis Adams N375CM On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Ray Wilhelm wrote: > Back in 1998 when I built my III, we were told ( don=92t remember by who) > that the facet fuel pumps could fail and block the flow of fuel. The pump s > had been changed to correct that failure mode, however there were many in > the field. Since it was possible that one of those could wind up in my > plane we were told to install a bypass check valve so the engine driven > pump could still pull the fuel around the failed electric pump. I did > install the check valve with a crack pressure of 2 inches of water > pressure. Never worried about it since. I do verify the check valve works > every year at my conditional inspection.**** > > Ray Pulsar III/3300**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > *From:* owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bob Heiser > *Sent:* Saturday, April 21, 2012 5:44 AM > *To:* pulsar-list@matronics.com; rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Pulsar-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff**** > > ** ** > > Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump? > The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff .. > ======================== ================= > > > **** > > With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the > loss of power.**** > > =B7 Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.**** > > =B7 The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We > removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We draine d > about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the > wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.**** > > =B7 Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.**** > > =B7 The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) > was empty.**** > > =B7 We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that > connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into > either tank.**** > > =B7 The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel > selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump .. > **** > > =B7 We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric > fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all th at > is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses were in > good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.**** > > =B7 We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the > 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult > thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it wa s > no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction. We > checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump > for debris, none found. **** > > When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend sai d > he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBo lt > he built years ago.**** > > Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It i s > turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been reports of > the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb=92s. I d id > see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the > electric pump on.**** > > It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff. > About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the > oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the > carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the > carbs? > > **** > > ** ** > > -- > *God Bless > Bob Heiser W7IKT***** > > * * > > ** > http://www.matron================== =******http://forums.matronics.com** > - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> > http://www.matronics.com/c=**** > > * * > > > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:45 PM PST US From: Bob Heiser Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Parts Has anyone gotten any repair parts for Pulsar XP's from Pulsar Aircraft Corp.? Do not plan to repair but need to understand what is available to talk to insurance company. Anyone know of a aircraft repair station that would be on rebuilding a Pulsar XP? -- *God Bless Bob Heiser W7IKT* ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:00:45 PM PST US From: GREGSMI@aol.com Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Parts I heard that Pulsar Aircraft is out of business. I have sent them emails but get no response. Greg In a message dated 4/21/2012 3:44:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, w7ikt@fly-web.us writes: Has anyone gotten any repair parts for Pulsar XP's from Pulsar Aircraft Corp.? Do not plan to repair but need to understand what is available to talk to insurance company. Anyone know of a aircraft repair station that would be on rebuilding a Pulsar XP? -- God Bless Bob Heiser W7IKT (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pulsar-List) /www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:52 PM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Parts Bob, Why don't you post some photos so we can assess the problem and make some suggestions ? Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Heiser To: pulsar-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 10:43 PM Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Parts Has anyone gotten any repair parts for Pulsar XP's from Pulsar Aircraft Corp.? Do not plan to repair but need to understand what is available to talk to insurance company. Anyone know of a aircraft repair station that would be on rebuilding a Pulsar XP? -- God Bless Bob Heiser W7IKT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pulsar-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pulsar-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pulsar-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pulsar-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.