---------------------------------------------------------- Pulsar-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/30/14: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:04 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (Barry J Edwards) 2. 12:04 AM - Re: Pulsar Bladder tanks (Barry J Edwards) 3. 12:30 AM - Re: Pulsar Bladder tanks (Keith Palmer) 4. 12:44 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (Keith Palmer) 5. 04:57 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (BobP) 6. 06:18 AM - Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (Barry J Edwards) 7. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (Matt Brock) 8. 07:30 AM - Re: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (Bernard Wilder) 9. 08:25 AM - Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (Sonja Englert) 10. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? (simongoozee@tiscali.co.uk) 11. 03:04 PM - Re: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (GREGSMI@aol.com) 12. 05:45 PM - Re: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (Keith Palmer) 13. 07:54 PM - Re: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (Keith Palmer) 14. 07:58 PM - Re: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (Keith Palmer) 15. 08:14 PM - Re: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (Keith Palmer) 16. 11:53 PM - Re: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks (Barry J Edwards) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:47 AM PST US From: "Barry J Edwards" Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? Hi Greg, My comment was not directed at whether structural adhesive is fuel proof or not but you made a comment =9CThis wing was never intended to carry fuel=9D and this is not correct since Mark Brown sold kits with wood spars and wing tanks so he must have intended it to carry fuel! Maybe in hindsight we can say that this was not an ideal solution but the fact is that it was done intentionally. That was the point of my post. Cheers, Barry From: GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:55 PM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? Barry, I can only tell you what I have tested and the facts are very clear, room temperature cured structural adhesive will dissolve if exposed to fuel. If it were mine I would cut an access to the tanks, clean the spar and apply several coats of Jeffco followed by a good thick coat of PRC. All of those coats would cover the spar and lap at least two inches onto the tank skin. I would also make sure the end plates were sealed in the same way. I am not sure if we have different additives in our fuel and ethanol is the worse, but when a room temp cured piece of glass tape was put in a jar of fuel, it totally dissolved the adhesive. Who knows how long it will take for fuel going through a pin hole or crack to dissolve the adhesive, did not test a pin hole. Over the years we have learned a lot more about composites and adhesives. I know we applied real thick coats of epoxy to the inside of the header tanks and set the fuel cap with structural adhesive and we have heard of several cases of the fuel cap developing leaks due to the adhesive dissolving. Maybe the epoxy helps seal the rest but we have heard of some leaks developing when ethanol fuel was used. The critical factor here is the spar caps are attached to the spruce spacer using room temp cured structural adhesive and we know that if room temp cured structural adhesive is soaked in fuel, it dissolves. Given what we know now, are there things we can do to make the plane safer? Greg In a message dated 1/29/2014 1:35:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry@connisbeare.com writes: Greg, This isn=99t quite correct. I have a Pulsar XP supplied with wing tanks AND WOOD wings from Aero Designs. The wings had to be strengthened with 6=9D wide glass on both sides of the spar (to within about 6=9D of the tip) and with plea nty of resin on the fuel side to ensure complete sealing. One of my wings has long since lost all of the old =98Kreem=99 sealant yet close inspection reveals no degradation of the glass structure inside the wing, or of the structural adhesive around the fuel cap. Of course, it may be that UK fuel has a different make-up to you stuff but my wings are fine after 22 years. Barry G-XPXP Pulsar XP R912 Taildragger 1050 hrs. From: GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 6:44 PM To: pulsar-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? The wood wing Pulsar uses a spruce wood spacer with uni-directional glass spar caps. The strength of the spar is in the spar caps which were bonded with room temp cured structural adhesive. This wing was never intended to carry fuel, and as we have found out now, the room temp cured structural adhesive will not stand up to any type of fuel. Failure of the bond in the spar cap is a failed wing. In using Jeffco we have found that as it cures it has small pin holes due to off gassing. We applied several coats to try to make sure all holes were filled, and then covered the tank in PRC, but still, there is a chance of a leak which could penetrate the structural adhesive on a wood wing Pulsar. Another thing to think about is that the wing flexes and twist in flight. Jeffco sets up very hard and may be subject to cracking. For that reason I would never attempt to put fuel in a wood wing Pulsar. It is possible for a leak to go undetected until the cap fails, not a good thing. The glass spars were made with high temp epoxy and cured in a oven and do resist fuel, although the new formulations of fuel and ethanol may be an issue so checking the seal often is a great idea. Be safe, Greg ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:52 AM PST US From: "Barry J Edwards" Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Bladder tanks I=99d certainly be interested in knowing the price! Barry From: Keith Palmer Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:39 AM Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Bladder tanks There are flexible tanks made in Italy for the Pulsar wings which may solve the problem, but very expensive, if there is any interest I could dig up the site for you ? Right and left wing tip tanks (SFT/1716 - 1717) for VLA Pulsar XP42 Original volume 39 + 39 liters Bladder fuel cells valume 33 + 33 liters BLADDER FUEL CELLS Sede : Localit=C3- Monte le Mole 15 =93 00060 CAPENA (Rm) E-MAIL : info@merin.it Tel : 06 / 9074553 Fax : 06 / 9032191 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:49 AM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Bladder tanks I would suggest you contact them direct (email address is there) When I checked years ago, they were about the price of a good motorcycle. Keith From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry J Edwards Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Bladder tanks I=99d certainly be interested in knowing the price! Barry From: Keith Palmer Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:39 AM Subject: Pulsar-List: Pulsar Bladder tanks There are flexible tanks made in Italy for the Pulsar wings which may solve the problem, but very expensive, if there is any interest I could dig up the site for you ? Right and left wing tip tanks (SFT/1716 - 1717) for VLA Pulsar XP42 Original volume 39 + 39 liters Bladder fuel cells valume 33 + 33 liters BLADDER FUEL CELLS Sede : Localit=C3- Monte le Mole 15 =93 00060 CAPENA (Rm) E-MAIL : info@merin.it Tel : 06 / 9074553 Fax : 06 / 9032191 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:50 AM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? Well I received cowl tank instructions and materials and also received wing tanks without instructions, these were later telexed to me ??? so all three were installed ??? Keith From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry J Edwards Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? Hi Greg, My comment was not directed at whether structural adhesive is fuel proof or not but you made a comment =9CThis wing was never intended to carry fuel=9D and this is not correct since Mark Brown sold kits with wood spars and wing tanks so he must have intended it to carry fuel! Maybe in hindsight we can say that this was not an ideal solution but the fact is that it was done intentionally. That was the point of my post. Cheers, Barry From: GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:55 PM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? Barry, I can only tell you what I have tested and the facts are very clear, room temperature cured structural adhesive will dissolve if exposed to fuel. If it were mine I would cut an access to the tanks, clean the spar and apply several coats of Jeffco followed by a good thick coat of PRC. All of those coats would cover the spar and lap at least two inches onto the tank skin. I would also make sure the end plates were sealed in the same way. I am not sure if we have different additives in our fuel and ethanol is the worse, but when a room temp cured piece of glass tape was put in a jar of fuel, it totally dissolved the adhesive. Who knows how long it will take for fuel going through a pin hole or crack to dissolve the adhesive, did not test a pin hole. Over the years we have learned a lot more about composites and adhesives. I know we applied real thick coats of epoxy to the inside of the header tanks and set the fuel cap with structural adhesive and we have heard of several cases of the fuel cap developing leaks due to the adhesive dissolving. Maybe the epoxy helps seal the rest but we have heard of some leaks developing when ethanol fuel was used. The critical factor here is the spar caps are attached to the spruce spacer using room temp cured structural adhesive and we know that if room temp cured structural adhesive is soaked in fuel, it dissolves. Given what we know now, are there things we can do to make the plane safer? Greg In a message dated 1/29/2014 1:35:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry@connisbeare.com writes: Greg, This isn=99t quite correct. I have a Pulsar XP supplied with wing tanks AND WOOD wings from Aero Designs. The wings had to be strengthened with 6=9D wide glass on both sides of the spar (to within about 6=9D of the tip) and with plea nty of resin on the fuel side to ensure complete sealing. One of my wings has long since lost all of the old =98Kreem=99 sealant yet close inspection reveals no degradation of the glass structure inside the wing, or of the structural adhesive around the fuel cap. Of course, it may be that UK fuel has a different make-up to you stuff but my wings are fine after 22 years. Barry G-XPXP Pulsar XP R912 Taildragger 1050 hrs. From: GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? The wood wing Pulsar uses a spruce wood spacer with uni-directional glass spar caps. The strength of the spar is in the spar caps which were bonded with room temp cured structural adhesive. This wing was never intended to carry fuel, and as we have found out now, the room temp cured structural adhesive will not stand up to any type of fuel. Failure of the bond in the spar cap is a failed wing. In using Jeffco we have found that as it cures it has small pin holes due to off gassing. We applied several coats to try to make sure all holes were filled, and then covered the tank in PRC, but still, there is a chance of a leak which could penetrate the structural adhesive on a wood wing Pulsar. Another thing to think about is that the wing flexes and twist in flight. Jeffco sets up very hard and may be subject to cracking. For that reason I would never attempt to put fuel in a wood wing Pulsar. It is possible for a leak to go undetected until the cap fails, not a good thing. The glass spars were made with high temp epoxy and cured in a oven and do resist fuel, although the new formulations of fuel and ethanol may be an issue so checking the seal often is a great idea. Be safe, Greg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:28 AM PST US Subject: Pulsar-List: Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? From: "BobP" I guess that if ethanol had been present in mogas when the early Pulsars were designed the tank design would have been different. My MK1 582 pulsar has wooden spars and an integral fuselage tank, and I am concerned that the fuel could weaken the integrity of the fuselage bulkheads and result in structural failure - especially if I were to run out of runway, (that glue is the only thing separating me from 60 litres of fuel). I ponder from time to time whether wing tanks could be fabricated and retrospectively fitted into my wings. As the weight of the fuel would then be in the wings the stress on the spars would be reduced (the maximum weight of the fuselage being lifted by the wings would be 40kg lower). CofG movement with fuel load would also reduce. It seems to me that it would be possible to fabricate some ethanol proof wing tanks as follows: 1 fabricate some aluminium wing tanks, profiled so that they will slide inside the wing leading edges. Incorporate rib baffles for increased strength and to stop fuel sloshing about. 2 Set the wing leading edge profiles in temporary external "plaster casts" to prevent stress and distortion (casts made from plaster, weak cement mortar mix or expanding foam - all contained in a wooden frame). 3 cut/scrape out the leading edge foam wing ribs where the tanks are to fit. 4 Slide the wing tanks into the leading edges bedded into a thin layer of expanding foam. Then progressively fill the voids between tank and wing skin with several small applications of expanding foam (so the expanding foam will not balloon the wing skin/crush the tank. Just an idea but any thoughts (good or bad) would be appreciated. BobP -------- BobP Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417870#417870 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:13 AM PST US From: "Barry J Edwards" Subject: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks I=99ve just had the following back from Merin in Italy. They are offering bladder style tanks for the XP at 1800 Euros per pair. That doesn=99t seem too bad to me and maybe if a couple more folks in the UK were interested we might get an even better price. Thoughts anyone? Barry G-XPXP UK OFFER 4946 - Safety fuel tank, anti-crash and anti-explosion for your aircraft Pulsar XP, manufactured according our standard (find leaflet attached). In order to be certain of your specific need, we would appreciate a drawing, if possible. Price: =82=AC 1.800,00 (LH + RH wing tanks) General Terms & Conditions Delivery: 45 days from order Transport: not included Payment: before shipment For any further info, please do not hesitate to contact us personally. Is our pleasure to improve not only our services but also customer satisfaction, which we cannot do without your help, observations, requests and/or questions. Best regards, Follow us on Da: Barry J Edwards [mailto:barry@connisbeare.com] Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 30 gennaio 2014 10:15 A: Tania Macaluso Oggetto: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Good morning, Could you let me know the cost of your bladder fuel tanks for the Pulsar XP please? Thank you, Barry Edwards Pulsar XP G-XPXP UK. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com Versione: 2014.0.4259 / Database dei virus: 3684/7043 - Data di rilascio: 29/01/2014 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? From: Matt Brock Gudday, Ive been thinking about this as an option for my build, and am interested in all options, except rediculously expensive, or complicated options. My humble 2 cents regarding a welded metal tank is that I would be concerned that it will be very rigid, and Aero Designs literature mentions that the wood spar and wing skin combination is quite flexible. If a foam medium were to be appropriate to support and contain metal tanks in the leading edge, it would have to be flexible and have an infinite memory, or over time it wouldnt support the tank properly anymore? I have a West System document that pertains to fuel tanks and discusses testing and feild experience with gasoline and ethanol and also coveres their recomendations with the epoxy resin application to acheive an appropriately sealed surface. If the post cured products that were used for some components on the pulsar are fine, then maybe we can develop a post curing regime for a specific resin system that will solve our problems? Regards, Matthew Brock. +971 50 7052665. > On 30 Jan 2014, at 16:56, "BobP" wrote: > > > I guess that if ethanol had been present in mogas when the early Pulsars were designed the tank design would have been different. My MK1 582 pulsar has wooden spars and an integral fuselage tank, and I am concerned that the fuel could weaken the integrity of the fuselage bulkheads and result in structural failure - especially if I were to run out of runway, (that glue is the only thing separating me from 60 litres of fuel). > > I ponder from time to time whether wing tanks could be fabricated and retrospectively fitted into my wings. As the weight of the fuel would then be in the wings the stress on the spars would be reduced (the maximum weight of the fuselage being lifted by the wings would be 40kg lower). CofG movement with fuel load would also reduce. > > It seems to me that it would be possible to fabricate some ethanol proof wing tanks as follows: > > 1 fabricate some aluminium wing tanks, profiled so that they will slide inside the wing leading edges. Incorporate rib baffles for increased strength and to stop fuel sloshing about. > > 2 Set the wing leading edge profiles in temporary external "plaster casts" to prevent stress and distortion (casts made from plaster, weak cement mortar mix or expanding foam - all contained in a wooden frame). > 3 cut/scrape out the leading edge foam wing ribs where the tanks are to fit. > > 4 Slide the wing tanks into the leading edges bedded into a thin layer of expanding foam. Then progressively fill the voids between tank and wing skin with several small applications of expanding foam (so the expanding foam will not balloon the wing skin/crush the tank. > > Just an idea but any thoughts (good or bad) would be appreciated. > > BobP > > -------- > BobP > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=417870#417870 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:17 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks From: Bernard Wilder Before I recoated my fuel cells I explored bladders. There is a company in Wisc. that makes bladders. Initial estimate was $500.00. Installation at building time would have been easy. Installation into a completed wing was complicated - lining up the fill hole, vent, supporting the bladder (you can't just stick it in),,,,etc. Bernie Wilder On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Barry J Edwards wro te: > I've just had the following back from Merin in Italy. They are offering > bladder style tanks for the XP at 1800 Euros per pair. That doesn't seem > too bad to me and maybe if a couple more folks in the UK were interested we > might get an even better price. > > Thoughts anyone? > > Barry > G-XPXP UK > > > *OFFER 4946* > > > - Safety fuel tank, anti-crash and anti-explosion for your > aircraft Pulsar XP, manufactured according our standard (find leaflet > attached). In order to be certain of your specific need, we would > appreciate a drawing, if possible. > > Price: *EURO 1.800,00 *(LH + RH wing tanks) > > > *General Terms & Conditions* > > Delivery: 45 days from order > > Transport: not included > > Payment: before shipment > > > For any further info, please do not hesitate to contact us personally. Is > our pleasure to improve not only our services but also customer > satisfaction, which we cannot do without your help, observations, request s > and/or questions. > > > Best regards, > > > *Follow us on* [image: http://www.merin.it/images/linkedin.png] > [image: http://www.merin.it/images/facebook.png] > [image: http://www.merin.it/images/twitter.png] > > [image: firma 3] > > > *Da:* Barry J Edwards [mailto:barry@connisbeare.com] > *Inviato:* gioved=EC 30 gennaio 2014 10:15 > *A:* Tania Macaluso > *Oggetto:* Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks > > > Good morning, > > > Could you let me know the cost of your bladder fuel tanks for the Pulsar > XP please? > > > Thank you, > > > Barry Edwards > > Pulsar XP G-XPXP UK. > ------------------------------ > > Nessun virus nel messaggio. > Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com > Versione: 2014.0.4259 / Database dei virus: 3684/7043 - Data di rilascio: > 29/01/2014 > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? From: Sonja Englert Hi Group, Interesting comments on the wood wing fuel, thanks. If anyone has read the early XP wing assembly manuals (like mine) closely, it says to bond the composite wing skins to the composite spar in the fuel tank area with micro, which to me is absolutely scary. Any pinhole will admit fuel to the micro and that stuff softens and crumbles. The 'structural' adhesive does not seem to be much of an improvement. The bonding area is only half the spar width (15 mm / 0.6"), which is by any standard very little. Care to think about what happens if your wing skin separates from the spar over a large area? I have pointed this and a number of other scary things out in my "annotated" manuals. I can only recommend that anyone still building their Pulsar get them and make the improvements. Those who have read them found it very useful. Sonja On 1/30/14, Keith Palmer wrote: > Well I received cowl tank instructions and materials and also received wing > tanks without instructions, these were later telexed to me ??? so all three > were installed ??? > > > Keith > > > From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry J > Edwards > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 10:00 AM > To: pulsar-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? > > > Hi Greg, > > > My comment was not directed at whether structural adhesive is fuel proof or > not but you made a comment "This wing was never intended to carry fuel" and > this is not correct since Mark Brown sold kits with wood spars and wing > tanks so he must have intended it to carry fuel! Maybe in hindsight we can > say that this was not an ideal solution but the fact is that it was done > intentionally. That was the point of my post. > > > Cheers, > > > Barry > > > From: GREGSMI@aol.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:55 PM > > To: pulsar-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? > > > Barry, I can only tell you what I have tested and the facts are very clear, > room temperature cured structural adhesive will dissolve if exposed to fuel. > If it were mine I would cut an access to the tanks, clean the spar and apply > several coats of Jeffco followed by a good thick coat of PRC. All of those > coats would cover the spar and lap at least two inches onto the tank skin. I > would also make sure the end plates were sealed in the same way. > > > I am not sure if we have different additives in our fuel and ethanol is the > worse, but when a room temp cured piece of glass tape was put in a jar of > fuel, it totally dissolved the adhesive. Who knows how long it will take for > fuel going through a pin hole or crack to dissolve the adhesive, did not > test a pin hole. > > > Over the years we have learned a lot more about composites and adhesives. I > know we applied real thick coats of epoxy to the inside of the header tanks > and set the fuel cap with structural adhesive and we have heard of several > cases of the fuel cap developing leaks due to the adhesive dissolving. Maybe > the epoxy helps seal the rest but we have heard of some leaks developing > when ethanol fuel was used. > > > The critical factor here is the spar caps are attached to the spruce spacer > using room temp cured structural adhesive and we know that if room temp > cured structural adhesive is soaked in fuel, it dissolves. Given what we > know now, are there things we can do to make the plane safer? > > > Greg > > > In a message dated 1/29/2014 1:35:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, > barry@connisbeare.com writes: > > Greg, > > > This isn't quite correct. I have a Pulsar XP supplied with wing tanks AND > WOOD wings from Aero Designs. The wings had to be strengthened with 6" wide > glass on both sides of the spar (to within about 6" of the tip) and with > plea nty of resin on the fuel side to ensure complete sealing. One of my > wings has long since lost all of the old 'Kreem' sealant yet close > inspection reveals no degradation of the glass structure inside the wing, or > of the structural adhesive around the fuel cap. Of course, it may be that UK > fuel has a different make-up to you stuff but my wings are fine after 22 > years. > > > Barry > > G-XPXP Pulsar XP R912 Taildragger 1050 hrs. > > > From: GREGSMI@aol.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 6:44 PM > > To: pulsar-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Wing tanks in wood wing? > > > The wood wing Pulsar uses a spruce wood spacer with uni-directional glass > spar caps. The strength of the spar is in the spar caps which were bonded > with room temp cured structural adhesive. This wing was never intended to > carry fuel, and as we have found out now, the room temp cured structural > adhesive will not stand up to any type of fuel. Failure of the bond in the > spar cap is a failed wing. > > > In using Jeffco we have found that as it cures it has small pin holes due to > off gassing. We applied several coats to try to make sure all holes were > filled, and then covered the tank in PRC, but still, there is a chance of a > leak which could penetrate the structural adhesive on a wood wing Pulsar. > Another thing to think about is that the wing flexes and twist in flight. > Jeffco sets up very hard and may be subject to cracking. For that reason I > would never attempt to put fuel in a wood wing Pulsar. It is possible for a > leak to go undetected until the cap fails, not a good thing. > > > The glass spars were made with high temp epoxy and cured in a oven and do > resist fuel, although the new formulations of fuel and ethanol may be an > issue so checking the seal often is a great idea. > > > Be safe, > > > Greg > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:56 AM PST US From: "simongoozee@tiscali.co.uk" Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Re: Wing tanks in wood wing? Wouldn't recommend trying to build wing tanks into an existing wing, I'm actually building my Xp wings at the moment, but why not do the same thing with the fuse tank, from alloy or polyester after all it's aft c of g that's usually the problem ps currently fitting merin tanks in g-rman , mike redmans aircraft who sadly died last year now owned by g Hawkins. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:12 PM PST US From: GREGSMI@aol.com Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks One other problem, the bladders may require you to remove the ribs in the tank. This is a structural issue. The ribs are required to spread the load to the spar. Without them, the end close out rib will take too much shear load, and we already know the end ribs will leak, the additional load will cause issues. Greg In a message dated 1/30/2014 9:30:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, bernard.wilder2@gmail.com writes: Before I recoated my fuel cells I explored bladders. There is a company in Wisc. that makes bladders. Initial estimate was $500.00. Installation at building time would have been easy. Installation into a completed wing was complicated - lining up the fill hole, vent, supporting the bladder (you can't just stick it in),,,,etc. Bernie Wilder On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Barry J Edwards <_barry@connisbeare.com_ (mailto:barry@connisbeare.com) > wrote: I=99ve just had the following back from Merin in Italy. They are off ering bladder style tanks for the XP at 1800 Euros per pair. That doesn=99 t seem too bad to me and maybe if a couple more folks in the UK were interested we might get an even better price. Thoughts anyone? Barry G-XPXP UK OFFER 4946 - Safety fuel tank, anti-crash and anti-explosion for your aircraft Pulsar XP, manufactured according our standard (find leaflet atta ched). In order to be certain of your specific need, we would appreciate a drawing, if possible. Price: =82=AC 1.800,00 (LH + RH wing tanks) General Terms & Conditions Delivery: 45 days from order Transport: not included Payment: before shipment For any further info, please do not hesitate to contact us personally. Is our pleasure to improve not only our services but also customer satisfaction, which we cannot do without your help, observations, requests and/or questions. Best regards, Follow us on (http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=197375985&trk=hb_tab_pro_top) (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Merin-srl/199334633477083?ref=hl) (http s://twitter.com/MERINsrl) Da: Barry J Edwards [mailto:_barry@connisbeare.com_ (mailto:barry@connisbeare.com) ] Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 30 gennaio 2014 10:15 A: Tania Macaluso Oggetto: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Good morning, Could you let me know the cost of your bladder fuel tanks for the Pulsar XP please? Thank you, Barry Edwards Pulsar XP G-XPXP UK. ____________________________________ Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - _www.avg.com_ (http://www.avg.com/) Versione: 2014.0.4259 / Database dei virus: 3684/7043 - Data di rilascio: 29/01/2014 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:38 PM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Greg, My wing tanks had no internal ribs, it just formed a D box in front of the spar. Keith From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 1:04 AM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks One other problem, the bladders may require you to remove the ribs in the tank. This is a structural issue. The ribs are required to spread the load to the spar. Without them, the end close out rib will take too much shear load, and we already know the end ribs will leak, the additional load will cause issues. Greg In a message dated 1/30/2014 9:30:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, bernard.wilder2@gmail.com writes: Before I recoated my fuel cells I explored bladders. There is a company in Wisc. that makes bladders. Initial estimate was $500.00. Installation at building time would have been easy. Installation into a completed wing was complicated - lining up the fill hole, vent, supporting the bladder (you can't just stick it in),,,,etc. Bernie Wilder On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Barry J Edwards wrote: I=99ve just had the following back from Merin in Italy. They are offering bladder style tanks for the XP at 1800 Euros per pair. That doesn=99t seem too bad to me and maybe if a couple more folks in the UK were interested we might get an even better price. Thoughts anyone? Barry G-XPXP UK OFFER 4946 - Safety fuel tank, anti-crash and anti-explosion for your aircraft Pulsar XP, manufactured according our standard (find leaflet attached). In order to be certain of your specific need, we would appreciate a drawing, if possible. Price: =82=AC 1.800,00 (LH + RH wing tanks) General Terms & Conditions Delivery: 45 days from order Transport: not included Payment: before shipment For any further info, please do not hesitate to contact us personally. Is our pleasure to improve not only our services but also customer satisfaction, which we cannot do without your help, observations, requests and/or questions. Best regards, Follow us on http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=197375985&trk=hb_tab_pro_top https://www.facebook.com/pages/Merin-srl/199334633477083?ref=hl https://twitter.com/MERINsrl firma 3 Da: Barry J Edwards [mailto:barry@connisbeare.com] Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 30 gennaio 2014 10:15 A: Tania Macaluso Oggetto: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Good morning, Could you let me know the cost of your bladder fuel tanks for the Pulsar XP please? Thank you, Barry Edwards Pulsar XP G-XPXP UK. _____ Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com Versione: 2014.0.4259 / Database dei virus: 3684/7043 - Data di rilascio: 29/01/2014 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:15 PM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Greg, My wing tanks had no ribs inside they just formed a D box, How would you put the 9700 in with ribs in the way ? Regards Keith D. Palmer ~ Rotary Pulse Engines ~ (Lite weight alternative to combustion Engines for Hybrids ) (including aircraft) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ RPE-Skunkworx P.O.Box 50512 Musgrave Road, 4062. Durban. KZN. =93 S.A. LL Tel +27 (0)31 708 1428 Mobile +27 (0)82 832 5533 e-mail - RPE_Skunkworx@mweb.co.za From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 1:04 AM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks One other problem, the bladders may require you to remove the ribs in the tank. This is a structural issue. The ribs are required to spread the load to the spar. Without them, the end close out rib will take too much shear load, and we already know the end ribs will leak, the additional load will cause issues. Greg In a message dated 1/30/2014 9:30:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, bernard.wilder2@gmail.com writes: Before I recoated my fuel cells I explored bladders. There is a company in Wisc. that makes bladders. Initial estimate was $500.00. Installation at building time would have been easy. Installation into a completed wing was complicated - lining up the fill hole, vent, supporting the bladder (you can't just stick it in),,,,etc. Bernie Wilder On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Barry J Edwards wrote: I=99ve just had the following back from Merin in Italy. They are offering bladder style tanks for the XP at 1800 Euros per pair. That doesn=99t seem too bad to me and maybe if a couple more folks in the UK were interested we might get an even better price. Thoughts anyone? Barry G-XPXP UK OFFER 4946 - Safety fuel tank, anti-crash and anti-explosion for your aircraft Pulsar XP, manufactured according our standard (find leaflet attached). In order to be certain of your specific need, we would appreciate a drawing, if possible. Price: =82=AC 1.800,00 (LH + RH wing tanks) General Terms & Conditions Delivery: 45 days from order Transport: not included Payment: before shipment For any further info, please do not hesitate to contact us personally. Is our pleasure to improve not only our services but also customer satisfaction, which we cannot do without your help, observations, requests and/or questions. Best regards, Follow us on http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=197375985&trk=hb_tab_pro_top https://www.facebook.com/pages/Merin-srl/199334633477083?ref=hl https://twitter.com/MERINsrl firma 3 Da: Barry J Edwards [mailto:barry@connisbeare.com] Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 30 gennaio 2014 10:15 A: Tania Macaluso Oggetto: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Good morning, Could you let me know the cost of your bladder fuel tanks for the Pulsar XP please? Thank you, Barry Edwards Pulsar XP G-XPXP UK. _____ Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com Versione: 2014.0.4259 / Database dei virus: 3684/7043 - Data di rilascio: 29/01/2014 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:04 PM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Greg, There are no ribs in the wing tanks they just form a D box Regards Keith D. Palmer ~ Rotary Pulse Engines ~ (Lite weight alternative to combustion Engines for Hybrids ) (including aircraft) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ RPE-Skunkworx P.O.Box 50512 Musgrave Road, 4062. Durban. KZN. =93 S.A. LL Tel +27 (0)31 708 1428 Mobile +27 (0)82 832 5533 e-mail - RPE_Skunkworx@mweb.co.za From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 1:04 AM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks One other problem, the bladders may require you to remove the ribs in the tank. This is a structural issue. The ribs are required to spread the load to the spar. Without them, the end close out rib will take too much shear load, and we already know the end ribs will leak, the additional load will cause issues. Greg In a message dated 1/30/2014 9:30:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, bernard.wilder2@gmail.com writes: Before I recoated my fuel cells I explored bladders. There is a company in Wisc. that makes bladders. Initial estimate was $500.00. Installation at building time would have been easy. Installation into a completed wing was complicated - lining up the fill hole, vent, supporting the bladder (you can't just stick it in),,,,etc. Bernie Wilder On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Barry J Edwards wrote: I=99ve just had the following back from Merin in Italy. They are offering bladder style tanks for the XP at 1800 Euros per pair. That doesn=99t seem too bad to me and maybe if a couple more folks in the UK were interested we might get an even better price. Thoughts anyone? Barry G-XPXP UK OFFER 4946 - Safety fuel tank, anti-crash and anti-explosion for your aircraft Pulsar XP, manufactured according our standard (find leaflet attached). In order to be certain of your specific need, we would appreciate a drawing, if possible. Price: =82=AC 1.800,00 (LH + RH wing tanks) General Terms & Conditions Delivery: 45 days from order Transport: not included Payment: before shipment For any further info, please do not hesitate to contact us personally. Is our pleasure to improve not only our services but also customer satisfaction, which we cannot do without your help, observations, requests and/or questions. Best regards, Follow us on http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=197375985&trk=hb_tab_pro_top https://www.facebook.com/pages/Merin-srl/199334633477083?ref=hl https://twitter.com/MERINsrl firma 3 Da: Barry J Edwards [mailto:barry@connisbeare.com] Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 30 gennaio 2014 10:15 A: Tania Macaluso Oggetto: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Good morning, Could you let me know the cost of your bladder fuel tanks for the Pulsar XP please? Thank you, Barry Edwards Pulsar XP G-XPXP UK. _____ Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com Versione: 2014.0.4259 / Database dei virus: 3684/7043 - Data di rilascio: 29/01/2014 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:04 PM PST US From: "Keith Palmer" Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Sorry my emails were not registering as being sent, so tried again , suddenly they all went at once From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith Palmer Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 5:58 AM Subject: RE: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Greg, There are no ribs in the wing tanks they just form a D box Regards Keith D. Palmer ~ Rotary Pulse Engines ~ (Lite weight alternative to combustion Engines for Hybrids ) (including aircraft) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ RPE-Skunkworx P.O.Box 50512 Musgrave Road, 4062. Durban. KZN. =93 S.A. LL Tel +27 (0)31 708 1428 Mobile +27 (0)82 832 5533 e-mail - RPE_Skunkworx@mweb.co.za From: owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pulsar-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 1:04 AM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks One other problem, the bladders may require you to remove the ribs in the tank. This is a structural issue. The ribs are required to spread the load to the spar. Without them, the end close out rib will take too much shear load, and we already know the end ribs will leak, the additional load will cause issues. Greg In a message dated 1/30/2014 9:30:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, bernard.wilder2@gmail.com writes: Before I recoated my fuel cells I explored bladders. There is a company in Wisc. that makes bladders. Initial estimate was $500.00. Installation at building time would have been easy. Installation into a completed wing was complicated - lining up the fill hole, vent, supporting the bladder (you can't just stick it in),,,,etc. Bernie Wilder On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 9:16 AM, Barry J Edwards wrote: I=99ve just had the following back from Merin in Italy. They are offering bladder style tanks for the XP at 1800 Euros per pair. That doesn=99t seem too bad to me and maybe if a couple more folks in the UK were interested we might get an even better price. Thoughts anyone? Barry G-XPXP UK OFFER 4946 - Safety fuel tank, anti-crash and anti-explosion for your aircraft Pulsar XP, manufactured according our standard (find leaflet attached). In order to be certain of your specific need, we would appreciate a drawing, if possible. Price: =82=AC 1.800,00 (LH + RH wing tanks) General Terms & Conditions Delivery: 45 days from order Transport: not included Payment: before shipment For any further info, please do not hesitate to contact us personally. Is our pleasure to improve not only our services but also customer satisfaction, which we cannot do without your help, observations, requests and/or questions. Best regards, Follow us on http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=197375985&trk=hb_tab_pro_top https://www.facebook.com/pages/Merin-srl/199334633477083?ref=hl https://twitter.com/MERINsrl firma 3 Da: Barry J Edwards [mailto:barry@connisbeare.com] Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 30 gennaio 2014 10:15 A: Tania Macaluso Oggetto: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Good morning, Could you let me know the cost of your bladder fuel tanks for the Pulsar XP please? Thank you, Barry Edwards Pulsar XP G-XPXP UK. _____ Nessun virus nel messaggio. Controllato da AVG - www.avg.com Versione: 2014.0.4259 / Database dei virus: 3684/7043 - Data di rilascio: 29/01/2014 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:23 PM PST US From: "Barry J Edwards" Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks Hi Greg, I don=99t have any ribs in my tanks except the close-outs at each end. Where these later additions? Barry From: GREGSMI@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Pulsar-List: Fw: R: Pulsar XP bladder fuel tanks One other problem, the bladders may require you to remove the ribs in the tank. This is a structural issue. The ribs are required to spread the load to the spar. Without them, the end close out rib will take too much shear load, and we already know the end ribs will leak, the additional load will cause issues. 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